Intel HD 3000 review seems better than Zacate apu but not as good as Llano apu

[informal]

I don't think Liano will even get close ... but well ... I guess, i am not well informed ;-)

The Doctor.

Llano won't get close to what? HD3000? LoL
SB HD3000 is barely faster than Zacate's 80SP IGP... Imagine Llano with 3Ghz+ improved Deneb cores and 400SP ... It will be ugly in games.

[delasneo]

Llano won't get close to what? HD3000? LoL
SB HD3000 is barely faster than Zacate's 80SP IGP... Imagine Llano with 3Ghz+ improved Deneb cores and 400SP ... It will be ugly in games.

I think Llano will defeat totally SB HD 3000 in Game with the long distance such as HD 3000 Vs GTS 240 ( not GT 220)

[qcmadness]

I don't think Liano will even get close ... but well ... I guess, i am not well informed ;-)

The Doctor.

It is highly likely that Llano will destroy SB in IGP.
And it is highly likely that SB will destroy Llano in CPU.

[EvilOne]

It is highly likely that Llano will destroy SB in IGP.
And it is highly likely that SB will destroy Llano in CPU.

Agree'd

I think the Llano makes more sence tho, not much point having a high power cpu with awfull graphics. OK cpu and good graphics with modest power usage sounds great for alot of markets. Not long to go now to find out

[Lanek]

Performance wise, maybe. But i don't remember ANY Intel solution to offer any kind of FSAA, Anisotropic filtering was always poor or non existent, poor texture filtering. And even though AMD Streams aren't being utilized so much, at least there is an option. Where Intel has nothing like that (programmable computing on GPU). Not to mention driver support which is very poor for Intel.

Hmm, Intel have presented now is own OpenCL SDK, i don't see any reason for it to don't be ported for IntelIGP ... Just for HD movies, HTML5 acceleration ( IE9-FF4), and flash video.

[BrowncoatGR]

Hmm, Intel have presented now is own OpenCL SDK, i don't see any reason for it to don't be ported for IntelIGP ... Just for HD movies, HTML5 acceleration ( IE9-FF4), and flash video.

What makes you think intel igps are fully programmable?

[R101]

Just keep in mind, on "resonable" resolution for those integrated solution, Conroe was 40% than a K8 on games like fear ... when you go low in resolution, CPU is as important as the GPU.
On higher resolution, memory subsystem will show their limits without a cache placed at the right spot ;-)

I think the driver is not up to date on this test ;-)

So, there is more performance to be found with newer drivers? I could ask ''How much?", but I think you would have told us if you could..

Let's just hope Intel has found more than one developer to do its drivers this time around, and that we could have a viable alternative to Nv and AMD at low end.

[saaya]

TDP are no markets...

which is why atom conquered the smartphone market in a storm

[Hornet331]

which is why atom conquered the smartphone market in a storm

So you mean the Atom Z600, which isn't availalbe till now?

Jfyi, this is the first chip who is marketed at the smartphone business, all previouse Atoms are either netbook/nettop or MIDs.
But yeah its cool that you can't take a certain market in 2010 when you have no product for that market till 2011...

Oh and btw. nice try to derail the thread...

¿GT220?

HD5570 is more than twice (near 3 times) a GT220. Even a bandwidth limited HD4650 DDR2 destroy a GT220. Remember, Llano comes in two flavors full SP for the tri/quadcores and half of them for the duals.

The low end Llano should be a bit faster than GT220, and the high end one two times that, minimum.

I think your mixing up the HD 5670 with the 5570, the 5570 offers ~35% more performance then a GT220 (a few cases where its 50%), a 5670 on the other hand is 100% faster.

This just shows how bandwidth limited the Redwood core is, the HD 5570 and 5670 sport the same core (with only 125mhz more 19% clock), but with vastly different memory bandwidths and is ~ 40% faster then a HD 5570.

Check some reviews first...
http://www.anandtech.com/show/2935
http://www.techspot.com/review/245-ati-radeon-hd-5570/
http://www.overclockersclub.com/revi...re_hd5570_1gb/

Now imagine a even more bandwidth starved HD5570 and you get close to a GT220. Thats why i worte Llnao will be roughly equal to a GT220.

And please, no more fanboy talk , like a HD5570 is 300% faster then a Gt220.

[Tomasis]

seems drwho knows that intel has weak spot and trying cover this with his sweet words

personally i rather want stronger gpu and weaker cpu when openCL is available. and i do lots stuffs that are required by gpu processing

[r.p]

I think your mixing up the HD 5670 with the 5570, the 5570 offers ~35% more performance then a GT220 (a few cases where its 50%), a 5670 on the other hand is 100% faster.


And please, no more fanboy talk , like a HD5570 is 300% faster then a Gt220.

hmmm strange

http://www.computerbase.de/artikel/g...ting_qualitaet

there a 5570@1280x1024 is about 140% faster (5670: 230%)

[Hornet331]

hmmm strange

http://www.computerbase.de/artikel/g...ting_qualitaet

there a 5570@1280x1024 is about 140% faster (5670: 230%)

Nothing strange.
Just look at the specs, they used GT220 with DDR2, but most other reviews use the GT220 with DDR3.
There are also some 5570 with ddr2... but who in there mind would buy such crippeld cards.

Also since they used a DDR3 GT220 in the hardspell HD3000 test, the Computerbase test isn't really that suited as reference, else you would get the same performance out of the GT220 as of the HD5450.

[duploxxx]

TDP are no markets...

Prices are, and zacate (e-series) is targeted for markets 399$/€+ notebooks. It only depends on how low SB will go and where they still contain a HD3000 or not. If there are going to be SB based i3s with HD3000 it will be hard to sell zacate in that segment, even with lower TDP.

But we have to see where Llano will be positioned.

most i3 cpu laptops start @500$+ most notebook from intel between 300-400 al old generations so nice try
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...0%20-%20%24400

did you ever check how low the GPU clock rate of the current Intel U series is to get that low TDP? even if SB will be in the same 18W TDP rate it will be at least a few times the size of ontario not to mention the price to manufacture and sell that won't even come close...

Want to bet on the EU parts on those new U series, it's only a fanboy dream to expect a 12EU in the 18W TDP

Off course llano will be much faster than HD 3000 its suppose to be. The fact that HD 3000 is so much faster than Zacate APU is delightful specially after internal GMA supporters were told that minimum graphic power is required and the only objective was to run the OS in all its glory aka eye candy.

how much more fun do you want to put in your replies.... Recently brainwashed by SHINTEL???? what are we actually comparing here, a GPU found in a 95W tdp ???? against a 18W TDP ??? even the S series for the cut down power already has a huge turbo performance decrease, not to mention what they will have to do to put it into a 18W TDP get real...


http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/Core_i...300835604.html
http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/Core_i...300834302.html

[flippin_waffles]

most i3 cpu laptops start @500$+ most notebook from intel between 300-400 al old generations so nice try
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...0%20-%20%24400

did you ever check how low the GPU clock rate of the current Intel U series is to get that low TDP? even if SB will be in the same 18W TDP rate it will be at least a few times the size of ontario not to mention the price to manufacture and sell that won't even come close...

Want to bet on the EU parts on those new U series, it's only a fanboy dream to expect a 12EU in the 18W TDP



how much more fun do you want to put in your replies.... Recently brainwashed by SHINTEL???? what are we actually comparing here, a GPU found in a 95W tdp ???? against a 18W TDP ??? even the S series for the cut down power already has a huge turbo performance decrease, not to mention what they will have to do to put it into a 18W TDP get real...


http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/Core_i...300835604.html
http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/Core_i...300834302.html

Exactly. How did everyone get so f'ing brainwashed to even consider this a valid comparison.

[Hornet331]

most i3 cpu laptops start @500$+ most notebook from intel between 300-400 al old generations so nice try
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...0%20-%20%24400

did you ever check how low the GPU clock rate of the current Intel U series is to get that low TDP? even if SB will be in the same 18W TDP rate it will be at least a few times the size of ontario not to mention the price to manufacture and sell that won't even come close...

Want to bet on the EU parts on those new U series, it's only a fanboy dream to expect a 12EU in the 18W TDP



how much more fun do you want to put in your replies.... Recently brainwashed by SHINTEL???? what are we actually comparing here, a GPU found in a 95W tdp ???? against a 18W TDP ??? even the S series for the cut down power already has a huge turbo performance decrease, not to mention what they will have to do to put it into a 18W TDP get real...


http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/Core_i...300835604.html
http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/Core_i...300834302.html

Why are you linking to 300-400$ notebooks when i said 399$+ .

hers the right price bracket:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...0%20-%20%24500
Also neweg seems quite expensive:
http://geizhals.at/eu/?cat=nb15w&bpm...Core+i3#xf_top

This prices include 19% VAT.

Also im not talking about ontairo, but zacate.

just like in this slide:
price.jpg

Your reading to much whats in your mind and not whats written on the display.

Regarding your question, yes I know how fast the low voltage cpus clock there gpus -> 500mhz on turbo with 45nm compared to 766mhz on none low voltage 35W parts, I expect them to increase this quite a bit with everything on 32nm.
We have already seen a decrease in load consumption due to the movement of the IMC/IGP on the, die using 32nm.

Also I am not expecting LV-SB to competent in the same price bracket as Zacate. According to amds own slides Zacate is for 399$/€+ notebooks. Which means the same bracket as the current 35W i3/Pentium P parts and future SB based parts.

As I said above, the market works not by TDP but by price brackets, most people dont care if a CPU has 35W TDP and the other 18W, if they are the same price and the one performes a bit better they buy the better part. Is it contraproductive to buy a higher thermal part when buying a notebook? Sure it is, but consumers are "stupid"...

And just a reminder, I am not talking about ontario which is a whole other ballpark.

[generics_user]

Just keep in mind, on "resonable" resolution for those integrated solution, Conroe was 40% than a K8 on games like fear ... when you go low in resolution, CPU is as important as the GPU.
On higher resolution, memory subsystem will show their limits without a cache placed at the right spot ;-)

I think the driver is not up to date on this test ;-)

My 2 cents ...
Enjoy the end of the year!

Francois

there is so much fail in this logic it ain't even funny....


you conclude that because high-end gpus are bottlenecked at low resolutions IGPs are bottle necked too?

take a high-end gpu like the Radeon 5870, run it at 1024x768 and you'll see a cpu bottlenech because fps jump to a level where the cpu can't keep up (let's say the card is theoretically able to reach 600 fps but cpu a limimts at 300 fps and cpu b at 150fps)

divide the 1600 execution units by 20; decrease efficiency due to a weaker MC and you'll run 20 fps on cpu a and cpu b because you reach a GPU bottleneck like every single igp system out there


sorry but all you contributed to this thread is a huge pile of fud


@hornet: resize that picture and et your facts right; amd targets brazos at the 399$ market, not the 399+$ market; and i doubt that intel is able to compete with brazos price level because brazos' die is 2-3 times smaller and the hudson M1 southbridge is significantly smaller than intel chipsets; this market isn't about getting people to pay your products; it's about OEMS buying your products and OEMs are going to love brazos because designs based on it are much cheaper to build (less complexe pcb; smaller pcb; cheaper chips) so they get higher margins

[duploxxx]

Why are you linking to 300-400$ notebooks when i said 399$+ .

hers the right price bracket:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...0%20-%20%24500
Also neweg seems quite expensive:
http://geizhals.at/eu/?cat=nb15w&bpm...Core+i3#xf_top

This prices include 19% VAT.

Also im not talking about ontairo, but zacate.

just like in this slide:

there are only very very few i3 series in that price range and those are just there because of dumping stock, all others are old generations trying to sell with the pentium brand.
Don't try to pinpoint on a single offer, check the whole market offer. FYI newegg is a general store with availability and prices in $, always used for compares.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...el%20Core%20i3

Price
$400 - $500 (3)
$500 - $750 (72)
$750 - $1000 (43)
$1000 - $1250 (1)
$1250 - $1500 (1)

Your reading to much whats in your mind and not whats written on the display.

Regarding your question, yes I know how fast the low voltage cpus clock there gpus -> 500mhz on turbo with 45nm compared to 766mhz on none low voltage 35W parts, I expect them to increase this quite a bit with everything on 32nm.
We have already seen a decrease in load consumption due to the movement of the IMC/IGP on the, die using 32nm.

what 45nm they are already on 32nm???
http://ark.intel.com/Product.aspx?id...ec-codes=SLBQP

best i5 580M GPU currently runs @500 and turbo to 766mhz with 2.66 - 3.33ghz cpu 2c 4T for a 35W TDP
new SB graphics i5 2540 has 2.66 - 3.33ghz cpu 2c 4t with new 12EU 650 - 1100mhz graphics.
so they were only able to gain on GPU performance with the new generation and optimize on 32nm, but then again that would be a major deal and finally a decent onboard graphics for those mobiles so me happy .

Now lets asume they have some mad engineers and are able to stick with the 650-1150 but have to only reduce to 6EU (very very doubtful)
they will have about the same GPU performance when they launch in q2 2011 like zacate now... with a lot of IF and IF and IF, probably within a few months info will leak to start the assumptions, so I would stop guessing for a while....

THe compare of zacate with 12EU part is out of the market positioning (but rather a matter of intel fanboy talk) end to that.

Also I am not expecting LV-SB to competent in the same price bracket as Zacate. According to amds own slides Zacate is for 399$/€+ notebooks. Which means the same bracket as the current 35W i3/Pentium P parts and future SB based parts.

As I said above, the market works not by TDP but by price brackets, most people dont care if a CPU has 35W TDP and the other 18W, if they are the same price and the one performes a bit better they buy the better part. Is it contraproductive to buy a higher thermal part when buying a notebook? Sure it is, but consumers are "stupid"...

And just a reminder, I am not talking about ontario which is a whole other ballpark.

again check those price ranges... you only find old Intel CPU or dumping stock in the price range of the top zacate, if you really want a low power consuming part, you have to pay a lot more for it:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...+330um&x=0&y=0

and people do check for power consumption - battery time these days in such a price range, those are still very portable devices. 35W means larger battery = higher cost and weight.
To my opinion they shouldn't be launching 15.6" screens on zacate, but it will be a very cheap long battery solution, so you see OEM ready to launch those in a few days.

I think the driver is not up to date on this test ;-)

My 2 cents ...
Enjoy the end of the year!

Francois

how many years do you want us to wait untill we get the right driver untill next gen? I know you aren't in that department, but graphic driver optimization hasn't been the best part of the Intel brand last years, ehh actually never....

[Hornet331]

there are only very very few i3 series in that price range and those are just there because of dumping stock, all others are old generations trying to sell with the pentium brand.
Don't try to pinpoint on a single offer, check the whole market offer. FYI newegg is a general store with availability and prices in $, always used for compares.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...el%20Core%20i3

Price
$400 - $500 (3)
$500 - $750 (72)
$750 - $1000 (43)
$1000 - $1250 (1)
$1250 - $1500 (1)




what 45nm they are already on 32nm???
http://ark.intel.com/Product.aspx?id...ec-codes=SLBQP

best i5 580M GPU currently runs @500 and turbo to 766mhz with 2.66 - 3.33ghz cpu 2c 4T for a 35W TDP
new SB graphics i5 2540 has 2.66 - 3.33ghz cpu 2c 4t with new 12EU 650 - 1100mhz graphics.
so they were only able to gain on GPU performance with the new generation and optimize on 32nm, but then again that would be a major deal and finally a decent onboard graphics for those mobiles so me happy .

Now lets asume they have some mad engineers and are able to stick with the 650-1150 but have to only reduce to 6EU (very very doubtful)
they will have about the same GPU performance when they launch in q2 2011 like zacate now... with a lot of IF and IF and IF, probably within a few months info will leak to start the assumptions, so I would stop guessing for a while....

THe compare of zacate with 12EU part is out of the market positioning (but rather a matter of intel fanboy talk) end to that.




again check those price ranges... you only find old Intel CPU or dumping stock in the price range of the top zacate, if you really want a low power consuming part, you have to pay a lot more for it:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...+330um&x=0&y=0

and people do check for power consumption - battery time these days in such a price range, those are still very portable devices. 35W means larger battery = higher cost and weight.
To my opinion they shouldn't be launching 15.6" screens on zacate, but it will be a very cheap long battery solution, so you see OEM ready to launch those in a few days.

No IMC and IGP are in 45nm since arrendale is a MCP, only the CPU is in 32nm. The IMC and the IGP are connected via QPI to the CPU. Your ignoring facts again.



Its even mentioned in the link you have provided.

On newegg you have 23 intel based notebooks in that price range, 7 are based on Arrendale (33%). But yes your point stands, that there are only 3 i3s and one i5 in that segement on neweegg.

But if you want to have more selection, look at the geizhals link, here in europe you get 49 books in the 400-500€ range with i3s only, if you include Pentium Ps you have 100+ and they goe as low was 330€.

So no, I am not pointing at a singel product, I am even expanding my view beyoned the US of A.

Its funny how you try to make my speculation look like I said this will happen for sure, even when I spoke in the subjunctive. If there is no SB based i3 with HD200, zacate will take that price range with no competition, but obviously you only try to read the bad "fanboy" parts in my original post.

[ajaidev]

how much more fun do you want to put in your replies.... Recently brainwashed by SHINTEL???? what are we actually comparing here, a GPU found in a 95W tdp ???? against a 18W TDP ??? even the S series for the cut down power already has a huge turbo performance decrease, not to mention what they will have to do to put it into a 18W TDP get real...


http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/Core_i...300835604.html
http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/Core_i...300834302.html

Yep i know they are not in the same TDP range but the thing is that a derivative will in the future go against the Zacate powered laptops depending on how good or bad a response it gets from the market.

Earlier this year there was a single core sandy bridge derivative that was suppose to fight for the Intel CULV market but now i dont know what Intel CULV plans are.

The reason why i am happy is that the basic performance of the HD3000 is quite a bit better than the HD2000 and as i had written it will not be close to llano the only other fusion in AMD's team is the Zacate and the Ontario.

Intel had given a whole way forward speech in April-May 09 where it had said that internal graphic processors are only important for handling OS needs and not gaming. The fact that the HD3000 does this much is also a welcome change from what Intel initially preached.

I expect new gen CULV's to cost more than Zacate but less than Llano but as i said they would most likely get a HD2000 which is near to Zacate's performance.


EDIT: Its not wrong to compare two things if they can fight on the same field. What i mean is that llano will cost similar to what a sandy bridge i3/i5 costs but will have double-triple times the graphical performance does that mean llano belongs to a different segment? A quad core AMD mobile processor can not be compared to a quad core i7 because of performance difference.

Zacate has a very good igp/apu and the fact that it takes the fastest Intel igp to take the crown from it with ease is very commendable.

[Drwho?]

I am feeling very confortable that non of the sited above will be a problem ... With 8MByte of cache capable of 384GigaBytes per seconds, and a cache hit about 60% when running at medium setting games, i am feeling very very confortable ... I invite you to check the bandwidth of a medium end Graphic card ... you are up to a surprise.

Since the GFX vendor were saying that cache would not help, we had to study it, and re-invent many of the software pipelines, you will see it in action very soon. So, yes, the driver version matters for this.
I think the receipe is a perfect storm ... The challenge in 2011 and after is all about efficency of the GFX engine with small die space ... More and more, you ll see the advantage of having a shared cache between GPU and CPU ... vertex buffers being exchanged at 384GB/s ... video buffers caches at 384GB/s ... etc ... Compute shared, OpenCL , all of this could benefit from the shared cache: If branchy openCL code, use AVX, if streaming code, use GPU ... without any access to the mem controler ... the architecture advantage is massive when having a Ring like SandyB with a cluster of Cache capable of 384GB/S (At 3GHz, more if higher frequency)
Now , let s see what the final silicon does with the final software when the NDA are over.
on the top of this, you will see that GPU was really not a good solution for video encoding ... that was a good marketing hype, with a lot of "100x" claims ... now, let see what it will come down to at the end ...

Again ... wait to get both products ... I know the answer ... you will know soon.

Francois

[massman]

Again ... wait to get both products ... I know the answer ... you will know soon.

How can you know the answer?

By your own logic, it is necessary to have access to the final drivers and final silicon to see the true performance of a product. The final drivers and final silicon are, again by your own logic, only available when NDA is over. Since neither your nor your competitor's product is publically available it's therefore not possible you know the final answer.

Unless ... all what you say is just to convince people your product is the best/awesome/whoop-that-ass brilliant and in reality we'll see no siginificant improvements when NDA is up on January 3rd.

And that's normal. When NDA is over, all Intel marketing representatives expect the media they've provided with the hardware to post their 25-page article on this new product. Now, either none of these media have access to the final drivers/silicon and all the articles provide charts that are incorrect OR they do have access to the final drivers/silicon and the early leaked charts actually do present the real performance, in which case you are doing the its-whoop-that-ass-brilliant move.

Happy 2011.

//edit: all above is of course assuming a product can ever reach 'true' performance. We all know there's a big difference between true/theoretical performance and reality.

[qcmadness]

I am feeling very confortable that non of the sited above will be a problem ... With 8MByte of cache capable of 384GigaBytes per seconds, and a cache hit about 60% when running at medium setting games, i am feeling very very confortable ... I invite you to check the bandwidth of a medium end Graphic card ... you are up to a surprise

The new CPU has 256MB of cache?

You are missing the points. If the texture is of only 16KB, then you have 384GB/s bandwidth, no problem.

If the texture is of 16MB, you have only 25.6GB/s (dual-channel DDR3-1600).

Don't try to mess up things

on the top of this, you will see that GPU was really not a good solution for video encoding ... that was a good marketing hype, with a lot of "100x" claims ... now, let see what it will come down to at the end ...

Again ... wait to get both products ... I know the answer ... you will know soon.

Francois

GPUs are way faster in processing MADD / MUL / FMA and others.
Which are crucial in video encoding.

[Drwho?]

what?
Llano supposedly will have 400+ shaders, the HD5450 that is in the same level as the 12EU high clocked G3000 only have 80, and it is also slightly bandwidth limited I think with 1600mhz 64bit bus


I don't know how the mobile parts will perform, but I don't think it will be THAT impressive even against the Zacate when we go really low power, with lower clocks and 6EU?

well, ask yourself ... 400 shaders with a DDR3 mem controler ... if you apply amdsahl's law ... you know that the shaders will be spending their times waiting for what ?

There is a major difference between something soudered on a board and a memory controler that need to go through socket and through a memory slots ... the signal processing is very very different the latencies are much higher ... the bandwith in the best case will be around 20GB/s ... far from the same card with a 400 shaders ...
The interpolation of the performance of the Liano is not as simple as the math i read here ... I am telling you, the shaders will be idle a lot ... and not powered off ... thermal issues will show up too

[informal]

well, ask yourself ... 400 shaders with a DDR3 mem controler ... if you apply amdsahl's law ... you know that the shaders will be spending their times waiting for what ?

There is a major difference between something soudered on a board and a memory controler that need to go through socket and through a memory slots ... the signal processing is very very different the latencies are much higher ... the bandwith in the best case will be around 20GB/s ... far from the same card with a 400 shaders ...
The interpolation of the performance of the Liano is not as simple as the math i read here ... I am telling you, the shaders will be idle a lot ... and not powered off ... thermal issues will show up too

You are joking right? Do you think AMD has such a bad engineering teams that they will design a chip with so many SPs which will in turn sit idle and consume power while doing nothing?Be serious please. They have done simulations and they know the right amount of logic needed in every part of design. They had top of the line GPU guys doing work on Llano's IMC and top of the line CPU guys doing the work on new power gating Llano will have. I have no doubts whatsoever that Llano will crush SB in games.None.

[Drwho?]

You are joking right? Do you think AMD has such a bad engineering teams that they will design a chip with so many SPs which will in turn sit idle and consume power while doing nothing?Be serious please. They have done simulations and they know the right amount of logic needed in every part of design. They had top of the line GPU guys doing work on Llano's IMC and top of the line CPU guys doing the work on new power gating Llano will have. I have no doubts whatsoever that Llano will crush SB in games.None.

I have friends working at AMD ... I respect them ... but still , ask yourself ... DDRIII with 400 Shaders ... You need a cache with high bandwitdh to balance the lack of Memory bandwidth of a processor socket (they are not soudered) ...

Be rational, don't put emotional topic ... the bottom line is that the memory controler will be starving ... Balancing a platform is very very important.

Now, you can speculate and dream , it is ok ...