New Audio Setup. Headphones or Speakers?

**Soulburner** · 09-10-2007, 04:46 PM

Alright so I am moving up from my tried and true SB Audigy 2. It has been very reliable since 2002. It is the last component to be upgraded as I just haven't seen much out there that made me want to switch - until now.

I am getting an Auzentech Prelude X-Fi. End of discussion about sound cards

With that said, I need a new audio setup to take advantage of it. I have to decide on a good set of speakers, or headphones.

I have with me right now my Klipsch 4.1 Promedia THX set which I have had since 2002 as well. I also have the Logitech Z-5500 set. So far I believe the Klipsch sounds better. I still have to make a final determination though - the Prelude will certainly make both sets of speakers come alive. I will just have to see which set comes alive more

Now do I keep them and get a good set of headphones, or just get rid of the computer speakers altogether and move up to some real gear?

What does a good set of headphones excel at? I am going to assume music, while a good speaker setup will be better for surround sound movies and gaming, but I'll let the audiophiles chime in.

Tell me what you think...what does it take to use non-computer speakers? Also send me some recommendations. This rig does just about everything but my two primary concerns are gaming audio and music audio quality. I would like the best of both so tell me what your ideal setup would be, as well as the costs of components. So far the Audio-Technica A900 look great but I haven't done much looking around.

Thanks guys

**Donnie27** · 09-11-2007, 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by Soulburner

Alright so I am moving up from my tried and true SB Audigy 2. It has been very reliable since 2002. It is the last component to be upgraded as I just haven't seen much out there that made me want to switch - until now.

I am getting an Auzentech Prelude X-Fi. End of discussion about sound cards

With that said, I need a new audio setup to take advantage of it. I have to decide on a good set of speakers, or headphones.

I have with me right now my Klipsch 4.1 Promedia THX set which I have had since 2002 as well. I also have the Logitech Z-5500 set. So far I believe the Klipsch sounds better. I still have to make a final determination though - the Prelude will certainly make both sets of speakers come alive. I will just have to see which set comes alive more

Now do I keep them and get a good set of headphones, or just get rid of the computer speakers altogether and move up to some real gear?

What does a good set of headphones excel at? I am going to assume music, while a good speaker setup will be better for surround sound movies and gaming, but I'll let the audiophiles chime in.

Tell me what you think...what does it take to use non-computer speakers? Also send me some recommendations. This rig does just about everything but my two primary concerns are gaming audio and music audio quality. I would like the best of both so tell me what your ideal setup would be, as well as the costs of components. So far the Audio-Technica A900 look great but I haven't done much looking around.

Thanks guys

I say get the best stuff you can afford. Best Headphones, Receiver and real Speakers gets my vote.

**Budwise** · 09-11-2007, 08:21 PM

i have some good speakers. Logitech Z5300e's. But once i got my Sennheiser HD595's i never really went back to using speakers...

**YukonTrooper** · 09-11-2007, 11:09 PM

Keep which speakers are better with the soundcard. Headphones are nice and will beat out any PC speakers quality wise but sometimes it's nice to take off the headphones and use speakers. I find some games I like to use my speakers and some I like to use my headphones.

BTW the Audio Techna headphones are a good set and I just purchased ATH-AD900 which is the open design opposed to the ATH-A900 you are speaking of. The AD900 have a bit less bass but are not weak in bass by any means. The bass is a bit above neutral on the bass scale but is tight and impactful which is the bass I prefer anyways. They outperform in the A900 in midrange, treble, soundstage and imaging (important for gaming). These are a great all around headphone especially for the price. If you don't plan on buying a headphone amp then there is nothing better than the Audio Techna headphones. The cheapest place to buy the Audio Techna headphones is audiocubes.com but I am sure you knew that. The Technas should be here on Friday as I just ordered them yesterday.

I JUST finished doing like a months research over at head-fi.org. Originally I was going to get the HD650's with a Gilmore Lite or some other solid state amplifier. Reading around though you'll find that trying to find the perfect headphone is an endless cycle of bull****. So much is subjective so if you don't know exactly what your after then its hard to choose the right setup. For example most people like Grado's for rock because they have good impactful bass and that in your face sound with defined treble. Others can't stand them because they find them fatiguing and prefer rock on Sennheisers which have more of a laid back sound. I thought that I would go with the Senns and pick up a solid state amp to bring out some energy in the cans, but upon further reading some said the SS amps were good and some said they were bad for synergy with the Senns. So much flippin' subjectivity. The total setup would have been close to $1000 so I decided to get a low ohm, easily driven pair that didn't require an amp. The people that have the Techna's say they like them a lot and is a good all around can for whatever genre of music and are some of the best for gaming. I'm gonna see how I like these ones and if I find them lacking for my needs then I will single out the weaknesses and strength and go from there. From what I read though this is a great set of phones.

BTW you might also consider picking up some Koss KSC75 headphones regardless if you pick up another pair or not. You can find these as low as like $6 but often outperform like $75 headphones. They are the clip on variety which are very comfy. The bass is crazy good for these little suckers. Impactful, strong, full of body. Treble and midrange is also good. These are considered the best buy in the audio world. You can perform the Kramer mod which is easily done and open up the mid and treble even more. I use these little suckers mostly on my iPod and some games and wow you won't believe the way these sound when you look at them. I had a pair of HD515's and they don't compare. You wouldn't think and damn was I surprised.

**Soulburner** · 09-12-2007, 02:20 AM

I already have the Koss KSC75's. They are my work headphones - paired with my Creative Zen Vision:M and a custom EQ

Excellent pair.

I'll probably consider getting the AT's and just keeping the speaker set that sounds the best with the Prelude. So you think that the AD900 is a better computer headphone for games and music? So the bass is a bit weaker than the A900, but its still more than my KSC75's right?

**Donnie27** · 09-12-2007, 07:08 AM

Originally Posted by Soulburner

I already have the Koss KSC75's. They are my work headphones - paired with my Creative Zen Vision:M and a custom EQ

Excellent pair.

I'll probably consider getting the AT's and just keeping the speaker set that sounds the best with the Prelude. So you think that the AD900 is a better computer headphone for games and music? So the bass is a bit weaker than the A900, but its still more than my KSC75's right?

I have a Harmon Kardon 247 on the way to my house. Once I heard even my old Pioneer and Mark 12s when I needed money I sold my DT770's and I liked them a lot. Yet, those old school speakers pleased my ears better. I've always said sound is not just subjective but has different effects on each person. One man's sweet sounds are another's noise

You can also sense the sounds that's out of your hearing range (LFE's for example). Speakers for me seem to do that better. Besides that, headphone out on many receivers assures you can still use some great cans. One of the thing I missed when my old school H&K Receiver died. Ever hear a REAL 100 Watts per channel RMS through Dual AMPs? Funny thing is the headphone out still works. It can overpower ANY headphones we tried.

**Soulburner** · 09-12-2007, 03:10 PM

So are you saying I need a good receiver? What's the best way to hook up the headphones? Directly into the Prelude or can it pass through speakers to a headphone jack on there unaltered?

**Donnie27** · 09-12-2007, 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by Soulburner

So are you saying I need a good receiver? What's the best way to hook up the headphones? Directly into the Prelude or can it pass through speakers to a headphone jack on there unaltered?

I don't have the card but I'd say connect it straight to the card. I would think unalter would be my first choice with this card. If you're using a Good receiver, the easy way to do it is to test both and pick what's better for (Key here) YOU. I really think sound perseptions is personal. What I like might suck for the next guy or girl. H-K has always had what I thought was good Headphone Out even on my old H-K receiver. My Pioneer HP out sucked.

**Soulburner** · 09-12-2007, 05:37 PM

The AD900's have a $40 premium over the A900's - tell me what exactly do you get for that money, and what would I be missing if I went with the A900s? I'm really liking the looks of both though.

A short thread of relevance:
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=191954

And another thing...how well can headphones like this simulate surround sound effects in games?

**Donnie27** · 09-12-2007, 08:42 PM

Originally Posted by Soulburner

The AD900's have a $40 premium over the A900's - tell me what exactly do you get for that money, and what would I be missing if I went with the A900s? I'm really liking the looks of both though.

A short thread of relevance:
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=191954

And another thing...how well can headphones like this simulate surround sound effects in games?

I'm NOT the headphone expert and to be honest, only YOU testing both can provide the answer to that one. I only listened the A900 at the Guitar Center never heard the AD900. Please note, I still like my speakers better.

**YukonTrooper** · 09-12-2007, 09:24 PM

You won't see any benefits using an amplifier or receiver with the A900 (40ohm) and AD900 (35ohm). The Koss KC75's (60ohm) would benefit more from an amp. Both cans are easily driven and would work fantastic out of the Prelude or any other X-Fi. Normal X-Fi cards will benefit greatly with upgraded op amps and a better power filter capacitor. The Prelude also has a more powerful output section than the regular X-Fi's so will drive headphones even more efficiently. The Prelude has some of the best DAC's and op amps in the industry and is comparable to using audio gear worth thousands of dollars. I'm not kidding, go over to head-fi.org and you'll see what I am talking about. The same goes for regular X-Fi's with upgraded op amps (op amps are a top component when talking about sound and the stock X-Fi op amps should burn in hell) but the Prelude is that much better. The DAC's found in regular X-Fi's are actually quite good quality and that is why the X-Fi with modded op amps is popular around the audiophile world.

The ability to digitally playback files which have been ripped in lossless format is like having a $$$$ CD player. Throw on top of that a quality external DAC which costs $$$$ to match the Prelude and your looking at a few paychecks. PC as source for audio is unmatched for price/performance and flexibility.

ANYWAYS back to the headphones. Because of the open air design of the AD900 it offers some noticeable gains in sound quality opposed to the closed design of the A900. I'll try to explain my best between the two.

Bass - This is the one area where the A900 is superior in terms of overall amount of bass. It will be more like the subwoofer in your car that goes really low. It will have more of an effect of covering your head in bass opposed to the AD900. The AD900 has less overall bass but what is there is more defined, impactful and tight. However this is not to say it is lean on bass. It has a neutral bass compared to all headphones so would run somewhere in the middle. It all depends on the type of bass you want. If you want real thumping bass then the A900 is probably better for you. If you want clean, fast and tight bass then go for the AD900. REMEMBER some will like one type and some will like the other and this is only a guideline.

Mids - AD900 is a mid monster. You like vocals? Mids, mids mids. You like Maynard James Keenan doing what he does best? Mids, mids mids. The AD900 really shines here whereas by comparison the A900 lacks. It's not so much that the A900 doesn't have mids, it's more of the fact that it has stronger bass and treble which seem to drown out the mids.

Treble - Both are probably a winner here but I tip my hat off to the AD900 because they aren't as overpowering and are more neutral with the mids and bass. The A900 might be able to reach a bit higher but you'll find yourself taking your headphones of quicker for a break.

Comfort - Supposedly some of the most comfortable around. Both use the same system and should be equally comfortable.

The AD900 sounds like the better overall can for a wide variety of music. The bass is still good but definitely not overwhelming like the A900. If you need large amounts of bass then the A900 will be a better can for you. The mids are much better and the treble is more natural on the AD900. I'd say the Koss KC75 and AD900 are probably about equal in terms of bass but the AD900 will have better detailed bass. For gaming both are very good because of their excellent sound stage and imaging. These cans are among the top suggested for gaming so you'll be very happy with both in this regard. The AD900 has better sound stage and imaging but not by much. From reading around the AD900 is worth the extra $40 for improved sound quality so thats the can I went with.

Here's a guy who did a review of the AD700, the AD900's little brother: http://www.headphones.com.au/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10 This would be a good place to read about the signature of the cans. You'll notice at the end of the review he says the AD900's impressed him even more. Later in the thread in one of his posts he says "The AD900 sounds better than the AD700, that's the difference. Better clarity, detail, separation, balance, smoothness, bass, dynamics etc."

Cheers!

**Soulburner** · 09-13-2007, 02:22 AM

It sounds like I would prefer the AD900. No Donnie I haven't heard them yet and I know sound can be somewhat up to personal preference, but Yukon seems to have similar tastes in sound to me.

BTW, Tool is my favorite band. Nothing else can reach that deep, dark moody spot that those guys do. "Thinking man's music" they call it. It sounds amazing on my Koss KSC75's at work with the Custom EQ on my Zen.

I'll have to definetely consider the AD900. Thanks for the detailed input, it really helps.

**afireinside** · 09-13-2007, 09:32 AM

I'd vote for the AD series also, just based off my experience with open/closed cans. From what I've read, the 500 and 900 sound very similar but that's up to you to decide.

I'm looking to get into speakers now. The problem? Speakers are expensive. If you want a high quality speaker setup, expect to drop a lot. You'll NEED some sort of external amping for them. With headphones, you don't. Want surround sound? Prepare to pay even more. Want to game? Sorry, headphones are better for that. Keep in mind I'm no speaker expert, but if I were in your position I'd do exactly what I do now: get awesome cans for music/gaming and then have a cheap 4.1/5.1 setup for movies (your klipsch will work fine)

I really love Tool as well. I'd say the KSC75s sound similar to a pair of Grado SR60s, though slightly different. The great thing about grados is they kick for rock/metal/jazz music and they don't need an amp for any of them, but they are VERY open (leak a lot of sound out) and have poor sound staging so they're not the best for gaming.

AKGs high end sound great IMO with Tool as well as everything else I listen to. VERY detailed and have a massive sound stage. The only problem is you better be ready to drop some serious cash. You'll end up paying 200-280 (depending on used/new and 601/701 choice) for the cans then you'll need an amp.

For gaming AND music without an amp, the AD500/900 might just be the right choice for you. You need to decide for your self how much money you're willing to spend and what exactly you want out of your purchase. Do you just want to listen to music? Is gaming important? Head-fi is your best friend and worst enemy right now. You'll find out what you want there, but sorry for your wallet and don't say I didn't tell you

**Donnie27** · 09-13-2007, 01:32 PM

Great info from both you guys

**Donnie27** · 09-13-2007, 01:56 PM

Oh and I'll still go with Speakers. Games don't have the same requirements as SACD or 24bit-192kHz Stereo. There are crap loads of speakers that will do a wonderful Job or doing perfect 5.1 game support. Now it can easly be argued that Cans can out do most most speakers that cost less than Martin Logan Minis (that I'd take over any cans). But here again to you and Youkon, one person's Sweet sounds are another's Noise.

Loved my DT770s but easily kept my speakers over them.

I don't want the sound card processing Surround to 2.0. I want discrete 5.1 and Speakers give me that. CMSS3D HP is very good but 5.1 Speakers TO MY EARS is better=P My friends and I with many different kinds systems are split about 50% on this issue so I'm not surprised.

**Soulburner** · 09-13-2007, 02:58 PM

Well I have the Klipsch 4.1 setup. Its basically the same as the 5.1 minus the center channel.

**Donnie27** · 09-13-2007, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by Soulburner

Well I have the Klipsch 4.1 setup. Its basically the same as the 5.1 minus the center channel.

Again, I like the K4.1 as well until I heard Full sized 3 way speakers. One of the first I heard was just in stereo. Old school Electro Voice (EV) and an old Marantz Receiver. The next was Kenwood and Klipsch Herseys. After that I was hooked. A3D hooked me on 3D gaming, NOT Creative labs. I heard many just plain-jane system before hearing a 40K rig. It was better but IMHO, not that much money better IMHO.

There are plenty of nice speakers that many Audiophile turn their noses up to speakers and receivers that will please 95% of everyone else. Then the web is full of real Audio Dealers with good stuff, EBay as well.

**RealTelstar** · 09-14-2007, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by Budwise

i have some good speakers. Logitech Z5300e's. But once i got my Sennheiser HD595's i never really went back to using speakers...

That's because they sound better than "computer speakers". If u get a pair of real powered speakers, you would need to spend other 2-300 bucks to have better sound from hearphones.

**RealTelstar** · 09-14-2007, 11:47 AM

Sound taste is personal. If you prefer the sound of the promedia, keep them. I had a promedia 5.1 set once and enjoyed it for one year before the amp broke and overseas replacement was not possible, nor local repair.

Anyway if you feel that they don't sound enough for you, go to a hi-fi store and listen to some monitors of your budget class AND of higher class. Then decide. To avoid the cost of an external amp, you need powered speakers, which means monitors. Monitors will reveal all the defects of the sound source. Many mp3 that you thought were perfect will appear for what they are: crap

You want suggestions, eh? I listened my speakers, the Tannoy Reveal 5A, the Reveal 6A (the sound was not as pure), the Event ALP5 (very good, were my second choice), the M-Audio BX5a (horrible) and others that i dont remember.

People also liked the Swans (not available in EU) and the KRK Rokit RP-5 that i never had a chance to listen.
I dont like 6" woofers, i think 5" is the ideal size for a small-mid-sized room and to listen closely like at the desk.

**Donnie27** · 09-14-2007, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by RealTelstar

Sound taste is personal. If you prefer the sound of the promedia, keep them. I had a promedia 5.1 set once and enjoyed it for one year before the amp broke and overseas replacement was not possible, nor local repair.

Anyway if you feel that they don't sound enough for you, go to a hi-fi store and listen to some monitors of your budget class AND of higher class. Then decide. To avoid the cost of an external amp, you need powered speakers, which means monitors. Monitors will reveal all the defects of the sound source. Many mp3 that you thought were perfect will appear for what they are: crap

You want suggestions, eh? I listened my speakers, the Tannoy Reveal 5A, the Reveal 6A (the sound was not as pure), the Event ALP5 (very good, were my second choice), the M-Audio BX5a (horrible) and others that i dont remember.

People also liked the Swans (not available in EU) and the KRK Rokit RP-5 that i never had a chance to listen.
I dont like 6" woofers, i think 5" is the ideal size for a small-mid-sized room and to listen closely like at the desk.

Most of us here in the USA have space for electronic gear that most folks in Europe don't. I visit Germany about every 18 months, was there about this time last year. Now I see we agree on one thing right up front, M-Audio BX5s does suck. I like the Swans as well and they might be the only Computer Multimedia speakers I'd use. Yet, I've heard cheap stuff at Best Buy and Circuit City that sounds much better IMHO. A-B is the way to go though.

**Donnie27** · 09-17-2007, 07:05 AM

To: afireinside and Yukon Trooper

You guys should really post your excellent views and great info in the Headphone thread.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...2&postcount=47

**tifius** · 09-19-2007, 04:42 AM

Mind your ears and get a good pair of speakers, after a few years blasting music in headphones I dont hear too well

**Soulburner** · 09-19-2007, 02:39 PM

So it really affected your hearing? I keep the volume to a sane level...

I ordered the Prelude about a week ago but stock won't come in to NCIXUS until October so I just deal with the Realtek onboard sound for now. It actually sounds about the same as my SB Audigy 2 did for music, but its not that great for games.

At least I paid $30 less than screwegg (I love the site, but their gouging on new "hot" products sucks).

**adamsleath** · 09-19-2007, 03:02 PM

the only reason i opted for hphones is out of courtesy for those that i live with.

you'll get great sound from a woofer box and surround speakers.

as to which one (surround) to get i dont know.

i started to look at conventional surround systems - i wunda whether they are better/comparable for price/performance to the creative/logitech type ones.... vs sony/pioneer/onkyo/kenwood/etcetcetcetc.

good conventional speakers can cost a bomb. - you'd need at least 4 plus maybe a woofer imo - cost a fortune.

if you want real sound you have to go for speakers.

most high quality headphones need an amp also; although some are specially designed so they dont really need one.

my ad700's are nice (<~ ad900's re above) & work well imo without any extra amp.
some models have low ohm versions (ie do not require extra amp)
whereas the higher ohm/ high end phones require more amplification.

i now use unamplified ad700's for the computer and use senny's for classical/other music with an amp.

the beyers i have are very good for rock/pop type music....where the sennys sound a bit tinny.

but all phones are different...some pump up the bass; some are tinny; some are balanced, etc etc.

**EniGmA1987** · 09-19-2007, 11:00 PM

I would personally get some really nice big speakers. I LOVE my setup and it is the envy of everyone that has seen them so far. I have a Pioneer VSX-80TXV and some giant Cerwin Vega CLS series speakers. I have the mids and highs for both the left and right channels running out of 4 channels on the receiver, then the lows are taking out of the left + right channel pre outs and go to a 600w per channel stereo amp. The setup has a total of 1640 watts of power. Sounds amazing too. I have it connected with high end optical cables and depending on what I am doing encoded to.e redceiver with Dolby Digital or 96KHz PCM and DD ProLogic II Check it out: