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Thread: F2 Extreme Radiators for Extreme watercooling

  1. #1
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    F2 Extreme Radiators for Extreme watercooling

    I´ve been developing watercooling products for some years. In this time, I´ve tested most of the products available, about 90% of the high efficiency wc systems available in the market. In all of them, besides evaluating their performance, I also looked for mistakes, always trying to understand the tecnology used, and trying to find ways to improve their efficiency. In all of them, what caught my attention were the radiators.... All were very inefficient, and highly flow restricted. These factors limited the cooling systems I was evaluating in extreme Ocs...

    Of course they can´t do the cooling work all by themself: a high performance water block and a strong water pump is also needed... I tested most of them, and will do a brief explanation of what I think is important concerning watercooling

    About the tubing and hose barbs: I use modified hose barbs... I´ll explain: My hose barbs are modified, having the liquid flow coming from the tubing in mind. They have their inner width widened to the max and polished. The mods on the inlets of these hose barbs is to keep a straigh line from the tubing to them, avoiding turbulance in the incoming liquid that would decrease flow rate. I use a 50% silicone ½ inch tubing, which is extremely flexible and has a bigger inner width, when compared to other ½ inch tubings available in the market, and it fits my hose barbs perfectly.
    These tubings are custom made for me by a manufacturer near my town, and are capable of doing a complete 4 inch radius circle without any obstruction or deformation. I use these tubings and hose barbs in all my water cooling kits, extreme ones or not.

    About the F2 Extreme radiators: I would like to give some personal beliefs about the commom radiators used today for water cooling before explaining my radiators.
    None of the radiators I tested, at least from what I know, are made exclusively for watercooling . For example, Dtek, one of the most used radiator, is simply a regular air heater radiator used in cars. The only difference is its size and headers. All the rest, including the Z form flat tubes, the tanks, the fins, are the same that are used in 90% of today´s cars air heaters. They are probably made by Delphi, since its identical, except for its size and headers, to the ones I tested. They are exactly the same heatcores made for the Chevette air heater, usually recommended in this Forums as a cheap solution. In my opinion, they´re highly restrictive and inefficient when used for watercooling.
    The same thing happens with the old (refrigerator´s condenser) and new Innovatek radiators, as well as the Black Ice and Black Ice Extreme from Danger Den, which are also made by Delphi, and uses the same flat tubes, headers and fins used in other heatcores made by Delphi, most of them used in air heaters for cars. Again, these too are extremely restrictive, with low heat exchange and not innovative.

    If you look for a air heater radiator in na auto´s parts shop, you will see that 50% are identical to the ones used by Dtek, and the other 50% are exactly the same used by Dangerden and Innovatek... Always the same thing, the only difference is the size, inlet type and, sometimes, the material used in it...

    I wanted much more than the market could offer me... I knew how a watercooler radiator should be, and I would not do as the others did, using radiators based in trivial heatcores, inefficient and flow restrictive, usually used for air heaters... What I wanted was a perfect watercooling radiator, at least from my point of view.... Specially designed for watercooling use... And that´s how my F2 Extreme project started...



    Some characteristics of the radiator F2 Extreme:

    That radiator is made with 3 arrays of flat tubes opposed and 12 layers of laminate pure copper for each inch of height,
    it has in the total of 54 flat tubes divided and opposed in 3 arrays

    it works in an only fluid passage, he has TWO entrance of 1\2 in the superior camera and TWO exit of 1\2 in the inferior camera

    the entrance has a special camera that feeds of fluid in a homogeneous way all the flats tubes .

    all weld they are them done with 57% of silver and all the connections are re-worked for over diameter and soft angles of entrance and exit
























    CPU: xp1700+
    Stepping: 0310
    Cooling:Watercooler F2 Extreme ( no petier , chiller or vapos)
    Voltage: 2.1v
    Motherboard:abit nf7-2 rev 2.0 Bios 1.3
    System Memory: oczel3200 dual channel
    Overclock: 2744mhz

    Watercooler Setup

    Pump : Quietone 1100 gph
    Radiator : F2 Extreme
    Block: LRWW


    OBS : nf7-s bio1.4






    OBS : nf7-s bio1.3








    Extreme oc in wc sistem









    Last edited by copyman; 07-07-2003 at 09:10 PM.


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  2. #2
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    WOW...

    That is certainly a sweet looking radiator, and a very slick shroud to go with it. I wish I could have something like that...
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    thats about the best radiator ive ever seen! congrats

    whats water temp compared to the room temp when under load and idle?

    silver? how much did you spend????

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    NICE radiator. nice results too :>
    im interested to see how much that beast cost ya.
    2500+ XP-M @ 2530MHZ
    DFI Infinity NFII Ultra
    BH-5
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    2x10k 160 scsi

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    Originally posted by saaya
    thats about the best radiator ive ever seen! congrats

    whats water temp compared to the room temp when under load and idle?

    silver? how much did you spend????
    The one of the picture is of the cathar, I am sending for him for tests in two days, I have 10 semi-ready pieces, 5 for reviews and tests 5 for sales

    the price of a piece as the one of the picture without fans 250,00 usd costs

    (with FOUR 1/2 barbs of coarse )

    All that case is in steel polished inox the perfection with finish of a jewel

    I have them in finishes in materials different with lower costs, but with the same perfomance.

    in several forums it is prohibited this type of information in the topics, please inform me if I am breaking some rule


    the temperature of the room of the tests above was from 21c to 22c, in mine bench of tests I don't use cabinets, for that the suitable temperature for the motherbord is very close of the Real
    Last edited by copyman; 07-07-2003 at 07:52 PM.


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    CPU: p4 2.8c
    Cooling:Watercooler F2 Extreme ( no petier , chiller or vapos)
    Voltage: 1.8v
    Motherboard:abit ic7g
    System Memory: geil 3500 premiun platinum
    Overclock: 3844mhz

    Watercooler Setup

    Pump : Quietone 1100 gph
    Radiator : F2 Extreme
    Block: LRWW









    Last edited by copyman; 07-07-2003 at 08:48 PM.


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  7. #7
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    250$ YAY! but hell its beautifull and performs extremely well. have you meassured the water temperatures?

    what is the difference between the air temperature and the water temperature?

    dont worry about the forum rules, im sure the admins will just pm you if theres something wrong or remove it theirselves. but i dont think theyll change something, after all we are all curious about those radiators

  8. #8
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    Originally posted by saaya
    250$ YAY! but hell its beautifull and performs extremely well. have you meassured the water temperatures?

    what is the difference between the air temperature and the water temperature?

    dont worry about the forum rules, im sure the admins will just pm you if theres something wrong or remove it theirselves. but i dont think theyll change something, after all we are all curious about those radiators
    that depends of as potency I am dissipating, but even so my thermometers don't get to measure the difference for her if inferior to 1c, even to 2700mhz 2,1v, my thermometers have margin of error of 1c

    in the images I simulate something below as the cpu die simulator to 70w, my delta the times it accuses 1c, the times not to delta, or better, the mobo doesn't have a scale to measure it





    SIZE=3]would I like to know where has more wc systems making that?[/SIZE]
    Last edited by copyman; 07-21-2003 at 10:32 AM.


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    so the water temp is almost the same as the room temp? just what i expected great radiator! id love to errr "review" one
    im out of money so ill get a car heatercore from the local junkyard lol

    whats the weight of the f2 without water?
    you used a car or motorbike heatercore to build it right?
    so i guess you have tried diferent heatercores.
    should i look for a heatercore with 2 or 3 rows of cooling rips if i dont want to put powerfull fans on it?

  10. #10
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    copyman,

    Congrats!, they sure looks nice...
    Looking at your desktop icons I'd say you're Brazilian right?

  11. #11
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    Originally posted by copyman

    the price of a piece as the one of the picture without fans 250,00 usd costs

    WTF!!!! That's an expensive rad, it is a beautiful and performs great but i don't think it's worth the extra over a car heatercore
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    Originally posted by EQuito
    copyman,

    Congrats!, they sure looks nice...
    Looking at your desktop icons I'd say you're Brazilian right?
    Yes I am Brazilian, and you?

    Fala portuques?

    Abla mi lingua?


    Thank you for the praises
    Last edited by copyman; 07-08-2003 at 08:33 AM.


    Nº 01 ATI9700pro 2k3 (7129 marks)
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  13. #13
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    Originally posted by saaya
    so the water temp is almost the same as the room temp? just what i expected great radiator! id love to errr "review" one
    im out of money so ill get a car heatercore from the local junkyard lol

    whats the weight of the f2 without water?
    you used a car or motorbike heatercore to build it right?
    so i guess you have tried diferent heatercores.
    should i look for a heatercore with 2 or 3 rows of cooling rips if i dont want to put powerfull fans on it?
    I am now in the work, I answer the other subjects later home


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  14. #14
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    Originally posted by antipop
    WTF!!!! That's an expensive rad, it is a beautiful and performs great but i don't think it's worth the extra over a car heatercore
    I can and I will prove that you this wandered
    How can you think had at least arrived close in performance with a modified heatcore?
    Do you know the differences about this for a heatcore?
    Could you explain to me?

    Did you see the everclocks and the temperatures posted here?

    Am I above for instance also to 2300mhz to 1,8v, which the temp of your system in that config? for the did see what in your signature it is like you it uses yours ok? do you also have less than 1c of delta to that overclock?

    Thank you for the praises


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  15. #15
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    My temp are 38°C under load @2380 and 2V
    I have a single chevy heatercore with two papst in a push pull config and without a shroud (i'll soon add one)
    I payed it 35$ last year and now i'll upgrade to 2 bigger heatercore and bigger tubing
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  16. #16
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    Originally posted by antipop
    My temp are 38°C under load @2380 and 2V
    I have a single chevy heatercore with two papst in a push pull config and without a shroud (i'll soon add one)
    I payed it 35$ last year and now i'll upgrade to 2 bigger heatercore and bigger tubing
    didn't you answer my questions, did you say that a heatcore is the same thing that a F2, do I want you to explain because?

    I didn't ask your temperature i asks your delta....

    I obviate that a system of high efficiency is not made for who rotates dissipating 2380 mhz to 2v, that is very little heat, but even so if you post images of your system in the same config of mine to 2300mhz the difference it will be enormous.

    Make the tests and post here, the differences will be very instructive to all

    thank you very much
    Last edited by copyman; 07-08-2003 at 12:28 PM.


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  17. #17
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    I'm sorry but i misunderstood your post
    I know that it's not a heatercore you're using
    The Tbred @2V generates a good amount of heat, you have a great clocker i must admit
    My delta is higher but it's where the problem stands, it's normal to have a important delta between load and idle temp. You ambient are also 10°C higher than mine. It's very hot here.
    I didn't said you're rad was not good or else, you have great temp but i say that it's overpriced IMO. For 250$ i'd rather go the peltier route.
    We can compare our sys but it won't say anything about the perf of your rad cause we have very different system.
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  18. #18
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    nah, a tbred@2v doesnt really generate that much heat if you think that heatercores are desogned to dissipate thousands rather hundret watts of heat!

  19. #19
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    Originally posted by saaya
    nah, a tbred@2v doesnt really generate that much heat if you think that heatercores are desogned to dissipate thousands rather hundret watts of heat!
    Its not how much it can handle... its how efficiently it can do at such low temp. It seems like this guys rad is not only cool looking but actually cools well. Price is cost prohibitive though. I would think you could easily get more surface area on heatercore (bigger one or 2) and achieve similar result... (albeit not as pretty or compact).
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  20. #20
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    Originally posted by jinu117
    Price is cost prohibitive though. I would think you could easily get more surface area on heatercore (bigger one or 2) and achieve similar result... (albeit not as pretty or compact).
    That summerize pretty well my point, looks like you express yourself better than me
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    Originally posted by saaya
    nah, a tbred@2v doesnt really generate that much heat if you think that heatercores are desogned to dissipate thousands rather hundret watts of heat!
    You cannot measure them for that, the capacity of heatcores dissipation takes in consideration temperatures of the fluid the more than 80c, and they are done to heat up the air and not to catch a cold the fluid


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  22. #22
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    Originally posted by jinu117
    Its not how much it can handle... its how efficiently it can do at such low temp. It seems like this guys rad is not only cool looking but actually cools well. Price is cost prohibitive though. I would think you could easily get more surface area on heatercore (bigger one or 2) and achieve similar result... (albeit not as pretty or compact).
    whenever multiple rads they were tried the pressure loss provoked by them I destroyed your efficiency, they still exist several other points, I already made a lot that, you can believe

    you didn't understand what I posted here, I speak in 250 usd that radiator of the pictures, that uses expensive matters in your finish and it has more than 12 working hours in your production and finish.

    No, the one of above it is not a popular rad, it is a rad for who wants the maximum in efficiency, finish and matters of high quality, only the polishing of that piece cost 3 hours, hours of work hand, each mark or risk in the inox and filled out with it welds inox and re-polished until the perfection to arrive.


    I have the same rad with the same efficiency, with cases in steel galvanized perhaps with painting epox by half of the price of this 150 135 usd.


    if that rad was made, of course another can make a so good one, but I spent two years of research about 20 heatdores and 13 prototypes to get that, don't think that placing a radiated giant you solve the problem, that was already tried also with several contrução types, and there was never anything of it got the same efiency of F2.

    The people always when they look at a ready product they imagine how it is easy to do an equal, but how many times don't they know and developer wandered ande had to return and nor it imagines how many small details they exist in a product that involved a lot of research, and that will turn inefficient other similar one if they are not correctly applied


    Without it roots possible to get this efficiency in the way like you spoke, she would already have gotten, therefore aberrations of gigantic rads and systems with 32154135123 radiators in line or parallel they are full for the internet, all horrible ones in efficiency terms


    Thanks

    Ivo Guilhon (Copyman)
    Last edited by copyman; 07-09-2003 at 05:25 AM.


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    Nov 2002
    Location
    Mi. U.S.A.
    Posts
    1,218
    Hi,


    First I'd like to say you have some very fine machining skills. Your finishing work is superb. VERY sharp!

    I do have some unanswered questions however.

    What size are the fans in use and their specs for CFM, wattage & pressure rate? I'm interested in what sort of air flow is involved in your temps. If only two fans were used how large a shift in temps do you see? Dual shrouds & push/pull fans are nice, but in many cases a bit hard to fit.

    How large is the active cooling area (just the finned core)? What size of individual flat tubes are in use?

    Total demensions?

    Water volume it contains?

    How many pass is your rad design? One way single pass, dual, triple ect.?

    Last,

    What is the head rate of that pump? Pumps wattage draw?

    I find your work interesting indeed, but need more data on the set up to better judge it's performance. Also need more info on demensions to judge how it would need to be set up. Thanks much, and again, VERY sharp.

    Last edited by Craig; 07-09-2003 at 05:35 PM.

  24. #24
    Xtremely slow runner
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Posts
    3,289
    Originally posted by copyman
    I have the same rad with the same efficiency, with cases in steel galvanized perhaps with painting epox by half of the price of this 150 135 usd.
    Now that make interesting, it's just a little more expensive than a BIX2 (don't worry i'm only comparing prices ), at those price you can expect selling some of those, but i think the shipping rate from brazil should be pretty high due to the weight of that thing
    The page you are looking for is currently unavailable. The Web site might be experiencing technical difficulties, or you may need to adjust your browser settings.

    Av by Frisch This is not a Lime tree

  25. #25
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    97
    Originally posted by Craig
    Hi,


    First I'd like to say you have some very fine machining skills. Your finishing work is superb. VERY sharp!

    I do have some unanswered questions however.

    What size are the fans in use and their specs for CFM, wattage & pressure rate? I'm interested in what sort of air flow is involved in your temps. If only two fans were used how large a shift in temps do you see? Dual shrouds & push/pull fans are nice, but in many cases a bit hard to fit.

    How large is the active cooling area (just the finned core)? What size of individual flat tubes are in use?

    Total demensions?

    Water volume it contains?

    How many pass is your rad design? One way single pass, dual, triple ect.?

    Last,

    What is the head rate of that pump? Pumps wattage draw?

    I find your work interesting indeed, but need more data on the set up to better judge it's performance. Also need more info on demensions to judge how it would need to be set up. Thanks much, and again, VERY sharp.

    I didn't post details waiting for the questions, they now were made I will be happy in you answer them, but a little later, I am now in the work.

    as the question of the sending cost outside of the brasil, we are verifyingt half more cheaply for you make it

    []'s

    Ivo


    Nº 01 ATI9700pro 2k3 (7129 marks)
    Copyman **Xtremesystems.org 3DTeam** G8NNXP watercooled a64 2524mhz 297mhz 2,5 4 4 8 11 16 \ watercooled 9700PRO 496\359mhz

    Nº 01 FX 5800\5800 ultra 2k1 (23113marks)
    Copyman **Xtremesystems.org 3DTeam** k8v dlx air cooled a64 2480mhz 248mhz 2225 11 16 \ air cooled fx5800 524\1080mhz

    Nº01 ATI9800np 2k1 (25960marks)
    Copyman **Xtremesystems.org 3DTeam** k8v dlx air cooled a64 2480mhz 248mhz 2225 11 16 \ air cooled 9800np 533\384mhz

    Nº 03 ATI9700pro 2k1 (24428marks) still Nº 01
    Copyman **Xtremesystems.org 3DTeam** G8NNXP watercooled a64 2500mhz 295mhz 2,5 4 4 8 11 16 \ watercooled 9700PRO 507\365mhz

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