Thermal Paste Shoot Out

[Silversink]

Looks like Arctic Silver 5 is still on top, and Nanotherm PCM+ is still corroding heatsinks.

-=Here's a Snippet-=

"PCM+ happened to be the first one up. After a while, it started to corrode my block, very uncool "

Another stellar endorsement for Nanotherm


http://www.gruntville.com/reviews/thermal/as5/page2.php

Arctic Silver 5 is a dark grey color paste that is slightly thicker than Ceramique, but not difficult to apply and spread.

I hope he wasnt spreading it with his fingers as thats not how its meant to be applied. Its meant to be spread by the pressure of the heatsink.

I applied a small dot of OCZ Ultra II to the CPU, and tried to spread it out in an even and thin fashion, however it had other plans. It liked to clump up and refused to spread out. However, after my best efforts, I was finally happy and put it in my system.

If the reviewer used the pressureof the heatsink to apply the AS5 then he should do it for every thermal paste reviewed to maintain consistency for more accurate results.

am using the socket temps, not the temps on die I’m sure that there’s a group of people who think I’m stupid

If you use the same everytime, if you make a mistake the mistake will occur in every test so the data will remain accurate but out of place.

But what about Nanotherm PCM+ I hear you asking. Well, when I had first started testing these thermal pastes, PCM+ happened to be the first one up. After a while, it started to corrode my block, very uncool. Needless to say, I didn’t get the temperatures once I found that out. Last I had heard, Nanotherm was still investigating the cause of the corrosion. It was thought that it was a chemical reaction with something that manufacturers were putting on the copper, as PCM+ itself shouldn’t cause such a reaction.

Among all the people that spotted this, I think we owe Liquid3D thanks as he pursued this not just for himself but for us too. Nanotherm need to do some serious testing before they rush another product out onto the market again.

Nice roundup!

[Silversink]

I believe what he did was follow the manufacturers instructions for each product they way I read it. I have no idea why you think he used his fingers, in fact he states, "(so as to avoid getting the oil from your skin on the block)". This clearly shows he didnt use his dirty digits

[Holst]

If you use the same everytime, if you make a mistake the mistake will occur in every test so the data will remain accurate but out of place.

This isnt true...

Measuring the air temperature under the socket is SOOO innacurate that it makes his review pretty pointless IMHO.. changes from different TIM should only be pretty minimal on CPU temps... where as the random variability of the insocket is pretty significant.. even if he did his best to keep ambient and other factors constant.

His results may be right... but they may easily be totaly wrong...

This is why I dont and wont do a cooler/paste roundup myself...

[Teus]

@holst: diode temperature all the way!

I've bought some stuff for backup and testing AMD rigs, i'll try to get diode temp monitoring for thermal paste/cooling reviews

Originally posted by Silversink
I believe what he did was follow the manufacturers instructions for each product they way I read it. I have no idea why you think he used his fingers, in fact he states, "(so as to avoid getting the oil from your skin on the block)". This clearly shows he didnt use his dirty digits

Sorry, I should read more carefully.

Originally posted by Holst
This isnt true...

Measuring the air temperature under the socket is SOOO innacurate that it makes his review pretty pointless IMHO.. changes from different TIM should only be pretty minimal on CPU temps... where as the random variability of the insocket is pretty significant.. even if he did his best to keep ambient and other factors constant.

His results may be right... but they may easily be totaly wrong...

This is why I dont and wont do a cooler/paste roundup myself...

TIM reviews are very hard to do I know as my first review for XtremeSystems was a comparison of Arctic Silver 3 and 5. I dont claim or even pretend to be all knowing but if you maintain consistency but there is an error you will show this error in every results. if the results are consistant the data could be accurately correct so if you record the wrong room temperature but it stays the same all the way through youll noptice that there isnt a big or small difference between the processors idle and ambient but this will be consistent throughout the results so it doesnt matter.

I think that all TIMs should be applied the same way even if different manufacturers recommend differently as the nthe whole test is consistant, maybe do it all again but applying the TIm the wa ythe manufacturer recommends to prove whether or not applying one way or another matters.

Craig

[Radical_53]

I had the same problem with the Nanotherm, used it on my waterblocks and found them later to be corroding (black surrounding of the "fingerprints" of the chip on the block).

Now I'm using silicone oil again. Works best for me.

[Silversink]

I agree with you Holst, there is no way most reviewers can attain perfect results because time of day, humidity at that time and many other factors make doing a 100% accurate review impossible.

To do it accurately you must have a climate controlled laboratory, and for each tested paste you need many brand new heatsinks to eliminate cross contamination. Even lapping them after each test will err the data. Then if all the above was done, the break in period makes testing a time consuming chore.

But many review sites do the best they can.

[Holst]

Im sure the guy did his best...
its just that using the insocket just isnt good enough IMO.

Even the diode in the CPU isnt accurate as its not calibrated.

These types of roundup are probably the hardest type of review to do of anything..

With a motherboard you describe it and clock it.. maybee mod it but you dont need any specialised kit to do that.. To do a good cooler or TIM review you need a lab.

As for how you apply the TIM, I read a review somewhere (by a member here) where they applied the pase in several ways.. with very interesting results. I would have liked to see another site copy this.. if only too see if the results could be duplicated.

[Teus]

you need two things to make a succesfull comparison of cooling products

#1: a die simulatur
#2: independence *cough*

[Kunaak]

I know everyones got something bad to say about nanotherm-but I've had it under my prometeia and P4 2.8C for about 3 months straight, and haven't had a single issue with it.
I took it off 2 days ago getting ready to ship out my prometeia and theres not a thing on there besides the thermal paste itself.
no marks or weird things.

I've also had this same thermal paste running in my seti PC (it's modified for 3.2 volts Vdimm for burning in ram all day everyday)for a few months with my 1700 at 2.5 ghz with a dangerden maze 3 on there cooling it, and theres nothing on that...

maybe I don't have the bad stuff to do it with?

I thought the marks only occured on Waterblocks and Normal Heatsinks, Nanotherm was designed for low temperatures as its a phase change paste but air or water cooling can not give it the low temps it requires? So it doesnt work properly and dries up?

[Silversink]

Originally posted by Kunaak
I know everyones got something bad to say about nanotherm-but I've had it under my prometeia and P4 2.8C for about 3 months straight, and haven't had a single issue with it.
I took it off 2 days ago getting ready to ship out my prometeia and theres not a thing on there besides the thermal paste itself.
no marks or weird things.

I've also had this same thermal paste running in my seti PC (it's modified for 3.2 volts Vdimm for burning in ram all day everyday)for a few months with my 1700 at 2.5 ghz with a dangerden maze 3 on there cooling it, and theres nothing on that...

maybe I don't have the bad stuff to do it with?

Since PCM+ has distilled water in it, it is not recommended by them for Promethia use. Some copper alloys seemingly are not affected by this issue, but most using high grade copper does suffer from this issue.

In fact the new revised PCM+ has the same issues as the old formula at a slower rate.

[Kunaak]

I don't remember what my nanotherm is, I bought it like 3-4 months ago, when I was sick of Ceramique bonding to my prometeia so much that my CPU came out of the socket with it, with both the stock heatsink and prometiea.
when I started using Nanotherm, I used it in my 2.8C prometeia, and the results were great, it cooled very well-and my prometeia has been untouched since.
so it's been in there for months.
only recently I took it all down, getting ready to ship my prometeia out for some work, and I had no issues with anything on the prometeia, marks or anything.

my set machine on the other hand has been in my clost sitting there for about a year, burning in ram all day everyday.
only recently when I moved apartments did I need to take it apart. when I changed the SLK800 off it, to a dangerden waterblock a few months ago, I used the last of the nanotherm on that.
recently when I moved, I took that PC apart and saw nothing on the waterblock after a few months.
that PC is again my closet burning in my ram at 3.2 something volts, and will be for a few weeks, day after day.
that PC no longer has Nanotherm cause I can't get it locally, and honestly, whatever I can get locally, is what I use.

when I gave some feedback in nanotherm area that use to be here, the main guy said I probably had nanotherm PCM (the old stuff, not the plus) which if I remember right he implied wasn't meant for phase change.
but thats too long ago to remember...

the guy offerd me a sample pack of nano therm stuff, but unfortunatly he never sent me anything

so now I cant get it locally anymore, so I use radioshack stuff in my phase change, cause it's great for that-but it sucks for air, so my last tubes of ceramique are grudgingly being used for my air cooled things

but my experiences with nano weren't bad, so I'd give them a try again-but if I got what you guys got from it, I'd be pretty pissed.

[charlie]

Kunaak,
I was up in your neck of the woods this weekend
Nikon @ 25,000ft, courtesy of Mt. Rainier

[Kunaak]

ah yes-the volcano of doom, looming over us seattlites ever so silently- calmly letting you forget she's a volcano long overdue for a erruption....

while charlie flys 25,000 feet up, saying "I ain't going down there"



(ok-I get back on topic)

[charlie]

Originally posted by Kunaak
ah yes-the volcano of doom, looming over us seattlites ever so silently- calmly letting you forget she's a volcano long overdue for a erruption....

while charlie flys 25,000 feet up, saying "I ain't going down there"



(ok-I get back on topic)

lol...

[kommando]

Thats one mad mountian.

When i was reading the review it seemed..... decent. Are those temps in celcius?

[GeekGoddess]

Very nice pic Charlie. Beautiful shot! Too bad you didnt get one of OUR Volcano here in Portland,,,MT. Hood.

[Liquid3D]

Originally posted by Kunaak
I know everyones got something bad to say about nanotherm-but I've had it under my prometeia and P4 2.8C for about 3 months straight, and haven't had a single issue with it...

If your talking about PCM+, although it states Phase-Change it's not recommended for Phase-Change systems. (at least it wasn't originally) Due to it's primary ingredient being parrafin, low temperatures cause the paste to solidify. It's name did confuse many people upon it's release. Phase-change is PCM+'s modus operandi not the medium it's designed for. In fact, in order for the parrfin element in the formula to undergo phase-change itself, it's operational envelope for effective transfer is around 38C to 50C.

However; your the second person I know who has used PCM+ in a phase-change system, with absolutely no complaints. Yet I wonder what temps you would experience using AS5 in your system. I'd highly reccomend trying it.

I agree thermal pastes are difficult to test. And it takes a company like Arctic Silver which has specific equipment to do this. AS uses a very expensive die-simulator, however; in and of itself this cannot accurately mimmick the metalurgical properties indigenous to each heatsink, and for that matter each batch run of raw material used therein. There are variables in the percentage of alloys in copper, and even "pure" copper varies from foundry to foundry. Arctic Silver does consider such metalurgical considerations in a Labortory grade environment.

Silversink brings up an excellent point. Subtle issues such as cross-contamination, and testing each paste on each heatsink is imporatnt. I beleive each TIM should be applied per manufacturers instuctions or you defeat the purpose. And since it's diode most will use to measure temps, al one need do is remain with the same mobo (e.g. diode) regardless of it's accuracy. Even if inaccurate by a few degrees, in so far as "real world" temps, one can still accurately extrapolate each pastes ability to cool comparing temp differences among them.

I found it odd the reviewer "easily" spread AS5 it's so dam thick and pulls every P4 out of the socket I have, even after trying to heat it up (closing my windows hehe). This is not a criticism upon AS5, but a compliment. It's viscosity is one reason it conducts so well, in addition to its' high silver particle count. Although thick, it's still malleable, effectively filling micro-pores. I love the stuff for it's thickness. Spreading it is not reccomended. Nor is spreading most pastes, as the process by definition would incorperate air into the paste.