Wisdom: Knowing how little you know

creidiki · 10-28-2009, 10:44 AM

Quote:

It's so simple to be wise. Just think of something stupid to say and say the opposite.

- Sam Levenson

*cough*

So ... >_>

I'm planning a new rig/project.

...

And I need current facts on WC components, because I've been out of the loop. This is where you lot come in

First, the facts:

The Case: Custom. I'm making it out of Avionic Aluminium. I have plenty of experience working with it, so it should be easy enough. I'm ripping the Mobo plate out of my old Stacker 810, RIP old friend, your sacrifice will be appreciated for up to 30 minutes.

The Pump: My RD-30. This means, incidentally, that I care little about how restrictive blocks are, because I have some 30+ feet of head to play with.

The Tubing: a mixture of 1/2 and 5/8, same as my old loop. If you need to ask why 5/8, you've never tried to run the usual 7/16 on the intake side of an RD-30.

Now for what I need help with, to wit:

The Rad: Quite simply, I'm not even considering non-Thermochill rads.
My only question here is, 140.3 or 120.4? Keeping in mind I've been running DS14SM-12 fans on my 120.3 for years, so I'm going to be using them with a custom shroud with either of them. Size is not an issue.

The CPU Block: Something tells me a Storm designed for naked single cores is not quite optimal for a Quad under a soldered metal plate. What do I get?

The GPU block: The Piece I have right now is an EK. Should I stick with Eddy's stuff, or is there something better? I'll be running an ATI card in the new rig.

Thank for your time, peepel

NaeKuh · 10-28-2009, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creidiki

The CPU Block: Something tells me a Storm designed for naked single cores is not quite optimal for a Quad under a soldered metal plate. What do I get?

The GPU block: The Piece I have right now is an EK. Should I stick with Eddy's stuff, or is there something better? I'll be running an ATI card in the new rig.

Thank for your time, peepel

The ApogeeXT is the top dog.
Followed by the HK 3.0, then comes the KL-350.
All those blocks tho have a 80 dollar tag. :P

The GPU block depends on the generation. If its an old EK, i wouldnt recomend you removing it, because chances are your PCB is warped.
GPU blocks all relatively act the same, so if you had good luck with your EK, leave it.

Your question regarding rad.. i would need to know the gpu and cpu..
If your running a smithfield + HD4870X2 then hellz no....

If your running a moderately clocked Quad or a i7, then i dont see any problems with whatever gpu you throw at it.

If your running high clocks on the i7, and high clocks on the gpu... you might get a little disappointed, when watching both load values...

BTW LTNS creidiki...

Hondacity · 10-28-2009, 11:03 AM

sounds like you got a billion experience points...

HK is highest quality block out there

swiftech xt is **** ugly

ChielScape · 10-28-2009, 11:06 AM

>The Rad: Quite simply, I'm not even considering non-Thermochill rads.
I cant say that is very "wise" actually. a GTX starts outperforming it over ~1200 RPM for 25mm thick fans, and less for the 38's. (and even less than that for push/pull and/or shrouds) unless you want the really quiet kind of fans, but that makes me wonder why you wouldnt use a quieter pump as well. i personally wouldnt consider the PA's as a matter of fact, but if you like them that much more power to ya :p
that said, get the 120.4. 120mm fans are just better. while for 140mm fans the PA's are the best of all 140mm rads, its more accurate to say they're the least bad ones. 140mm fans just cant do well on rads. unless you get deltas, but in that case... -> GTX.

>CPU block
Let me recommend the HK 3.0. The swiftech XT is supposed to outperform it a little, but the block baseplates arent exactly up to spec. ive heard several people got damaged plates, with lots of bent pins. and since they're small i fear they might break off and get into the pump.

>GPU
cant go wrong with EK. equally good are koolance, and heatkillers. you could get a dangerden, but they perform the worst of the bunch and are really ugly if you ask me. besides that theyre the most expensive last time i checked.

Zeus · 10-28-2009, 11:43 AM

I think i've read somewhere that the 120.4 had a tad more surface area and is better suited for use with 120mm fans but with a shroud that won't matter much.

Your love for Yates might come to a halt when you've heard the Scythe Gentle Typhoon 1850RPM fans, they're worth checking out.

They give very good static pressure, good airflow, low noise and are very durable. Course they're not cheap.

For cpu blocks, Watercool heatkiller 3.0 used to be king of the hill for quad core cpu's but recently Swiftech released a new one that might be interesting.

Good luck with your new build and welcome back.

creidiki · 10-28-2009, 01:23 PM

A belated hey y'all to all the people here I haven't spoken to in ages.

NaeKuh, I'm changing the GPU and everything, so *shrug* on that.

I'll be running an OC'd i7 and some top-end ATI piece, single card. I don't "do" Xfire/SLI.

ChielScape ... 1200rpm

My D14SMs are hooked to an M-Cubed controller slaved to a digital sensor sunk into a t-piece right before the rad inlet. They usually run @ 450-500rpm.

Also my RD-30 is completely silent, its sitting on a stack of soundproofing and a pad of silicon from Petra's. Its amazing what a little vibration dampening will do for you ...

Anyway, since I'm making the case myself, I'm building it with thick-ass soundproofing in mind - you won't be able to hear anything that's *inside* ... and since I run my fans in pull ... you can't hear anything at all.

Yeah shroud won't matter much, I've been making my custom ones for a while. and I'll be running 140mms regardless because I've found that I get the same temps for less noise. This is, of course, perceptual, and probably down to the lower Hz of the sound coming from a 140. Should I still check out Scythes? They used to be just overpriced rebadged Sony pieces ...

Nice to know Eddy's stuff is well-regarded, he's a top guy

I like gabe's blocks too, but I'll probably go for the EK if they're similar, purely because its easier to get replacement tops since he's also in europe.

NaeKuh · 10-28-2009, 01:37 PM

nah single gpu.... 5800 class?

+

i7?

You'll be fine on either rad with medium fans.
You'll only be disappointed slightly when you have both loaded, or if you were looking for low idle temps.

creidiki · 10-28-2009, 01:46 PM

Yeah, looking like a 5800 class + i7.

Idle temps are not terribly relevant, or I wouldn't have the fans set to spin down as coolant temp lowers. We're not big on aircon in Italy though, so if there's a better rad for load (which is like 900rpm from my fans, right now), it would be good, so long as its not too noisy a rad, because air temps get to 35c pretty easy in august. I can't seem to find reviews pointing to a large difference between the top-end 4x rads, however. Got a link?

Since the only noise that can be heard is the airflow through the rad, rad noise is an important consideration for me.

NaeKuh · 10-28-2009, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creidiki

Yeah, looking like a 5800 class + i7.

Idle temps are not terribly relevant, or I wouldn't have the fans set to spin down as coolant temp lowers. We're not big on aircon in Italy though, so if there's a better rad for load (which is like 900rpm from my fans, right now), it would be good, so long as its not too noisy a rad, because air temps get to 35c pretty easy in august. I can't seem to find reviews pointing to a large difference between the top-end 4x rads, however. Got a link?

Since the only noise that can be heard is the airflow through the rad, rad noise is an important consideration for me.

my basic rule i use..

Each 120mm ~ 110W of heat source at a low noise output on the fan.

So total up your theoretical heat load, and match the # of 120 next to it.

150W ~ 120mm with 1600rpm fans.
180W ~ 120mm with 2k rpm fans.

As i said its a very big ballpark number, but it should be accurate for what i think your looking for.

creidiki can you afford the space to do push/pull? you can cheat static even more that way.

creidiki · 10-28-2009, 02:03 PM

Yeah, I can do push-pull easily enough.

It has to be worth it though - going from 8 to 12 fans means putting down cash for another MiniNG (not to mention 4x 140mm fans), as I'd overload the channels otherwise, as the BigNG and MiniNG only push 25W combined each when in Analogue mode.

Rads are surprisingly good sound mufflers, so I'll have to give serious consideration on whether to keep them in pull inside, and possibly having to let them spin up to the full 1400rpm at peak, or having 4 more outside. The latter may make more noise even at lower rpm, which would mean angled baffle, which means lower airflow, which means higher rpm, etc etc.

NaeKuh · 10-28-2009, 02:10 PM

yeah but 2 fans @ 900 RPMs will generate less noise then 1 @ 1400rpm. :P

on a rad you'd probably almost get the same amount of air though.

Your looking at the lower end of the sound spectrum and not the middle.

creidiki · 10-28-2009, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NaeKuh

yeah but 2 fans @ 900 RPMs will generate less noise then 1 @ 1400rpm. :P

on a rad you'd probably almost get the same amount of air though.

Your looking at the lower end of the sound spectrum and not the middle.

They do if they're both in the open air. If the single fan is in a soundproofed case, I'm not so sure. I cant' try it out on my rig right now because of lolblownPSU, but most of what I heard when I maxed them was airflow over the rad. Which is a surprisingly loud wind noise, I may add.

And yes, I am very firmly entrenched in the very low end of the noise spectrum

Well, I have to get at least another 5 fans, or 8 if I'm going to go with the Scythes that were mentioned, so I can run a dead-loop test for noise with the Stacker as a test box. Try 3x in pull @ 1400, and 6x in push-pull @ 900-1000, and see which bothers me the least perceptually.

BTW, what are people using for additives these days? I'm still running an old school "add a couple of teaspoons of zerex" mix with Deionised.

Been debating a reservoir for extra lazyness, but its always a pain to find one that works well with an RD-30 without getting noisy vortexes. Sticking with my old sawn-off dvd spindle t-plug, unless someone knows of a nice res that won't gurgle like Charybdis when hooked up to an RD-30.

ChielScape · 10-28-2009, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creidiki

A belated hey y'all to all the people here I haven't spoken to in ages.

NaeKuh, I'm changing the GPU and everything, so *shrug* on that.

I'll be running an OC'd i7 and some top-end ATI piece, single card. I don't "do" Xfire/SLI.

ChielScape ... 1200rpm

My D14SMs are hooked to an M-Cubed controller slaved to a digital sensor sunk into a t-piece right before the rad inlet. They usually run @ 450-500rpm.

Also my RD-30 is completely silent, its sitting on a stack of soundproofing and a pad of silicon from Petra's. Its amazing what a little vibration dampening will do for you ...

Anyway, since I'm making the case myself, I'm building it with thick-ass soundproofing in mind - you won't be able to hear anything that's *inside* ... and since I run my fans in pull ... you can't hear anything at all.

Yeah shroud won't matter much, I've been making my custom ones for a while. and I'll be running 140mms regardless because I've found that I get the same temps for less noise. This is, of course, perceptual, and probably down to the lower Hz of the sound coming from a 140. Should I still check out Scythes? They used to be just overpriced rebadged Sony pieces ...

Nice to know Eddy's stuff is well-regarded, he's a top guy

I like gabe's blocks too, but I'll probably go for the EK if they're similar, purely because its easier to get replacement tops since he's also in europe.

just 500 RPM? you may wanna get 2 120.4's then, since you seem to be going over the top anyway. or 140.3's if you pick those.

creidiki · 10-28-2009, 02:50 PM

The most heat I've had in that loop since I've built it was an Opteron 170 running @ 2.7GHz and an X1900XTX, so yeah, 500rpm kept it about 7c above ambient at 500rpm (idle), spinning to about 900 at load (unless !high summer!). PA120.3 with 3x D14SM-12s in pull.

Since then I've been poor so its been slower, cooler stuff

I'm drawing the line at multiple rads however.

Also, poosticks, its raining and I'm stuck in the hotel

dingdong555 · 10-28-2009, 04:36 PM

Get the Swiftech XT block, best performing from tests.

NaeKuh · 10-28-2009, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creidiki

BTW, what are people using for additives these days? I'm still running an old school "add a couple of teaspoons of zerex" mix with Deionised.

Straight distilled + Silver is the general consensus now.

creidiki · 10-28-2009, 05:17 PM

"Silver" being?

Quote:

Originally Posted by dingdong555

Get the Swiftech XT block, best performing from tests.

Thermally yeah, but I'm kind of turned off by all the bottom plates with bent pins.

Vapor · 10-28-2009, 05:21 PM

Killcoil, silver tubing (PTS, Sidewinder, Jab-Tech, and maybe a few others have it), or make-your-own silver coil

Good to see you back

NaeKuh · 10-28-2009, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creidiki

"Silver" being?

a lot of ways..

1. silver plated barbs... although i dont know how long they last, but they seem to work.

2. A killcoil:
http://www.petrastechshop.com/sikibyia.html

3. Colloidal silver additive.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colloidal_silver

4. Silver Ingot inside Res. (classic but effective route) :P

creidiki · 10-28-2009, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vapor

Killcoil

That looks good enough for me

Also, I love the warning. Petra's <3

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vapor

Good to see you back

edit: btw, what pump setting should I be looking at in your tests, for single RD-30 performance?

millertime359 · 10-28-2009, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creidiki

Also, I love the warning. Petra's <3

I never noticed that warning before. That is great.

v0dka · 10-29-2009, 06:08 AM

Why do you insist on one 3 or 4 x 120mm when there is also a 9 x 120 mm for example? If sound is your main concern you need surface area. Price can't be the issue because the mo-ra is not expensive (not counting 9 good fans

).

You could incorporate the design of the mo-ra into the side of the case perhaps, because you are building it yourself. Now if you create some way to add decent airflow through the case and the rad as well, that would most definately make an interesting build.

creidiki · 10-29-2009, 06:18 AM

The MoRa 2 performs very well, an yes, its relatively cheap, and yes, I could incorporate it into my case. However:

Balanced airflow with an internally-mounted MoRa 2 means a case with 18x120mm fans.

As much as I like the MoRa's thermal performance, I want 18 fans in my room about as much as I want to have my scrotum nailgun'd to the wall. I'm hoping to have it done with 8x140mm altogether.

Weevil · 10-29-2009, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hondacity

swiftech xt is **** ugly

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Zeus · 10-29-2009, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creidiki

The MoRa 2 performs very well, an yes, its relatively cheap, and yes, I could incorporate it into my case. However:

Balanced airflow with an internally-mounted MoRa 2 means a case with 18x120mm fans.

As much as I like the MoRa's thermal performance, I want 18 fans in my room about as much as I want to have my scrotum nailgun'd to the wall. I'm hoping to have it done with 8x140mm altogether.

Maybe not.

Maybe you could just do like this guy and use 4x180mm fans (or 4x each side?): http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...4&postcount=17

Here's the entire thread:http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=235564

How about having it nailgunned to your leg?