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Old 10-12-2009, 07:03 PM   #1
__-_-_-__
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help the n00b with teh TEC's

so I'm a noob trying to play with TEC's. I had several WC systems in the past. I've read all the stickies this seams a bit complicated with the calcs etc. I don't want to burn my system.

my specs are:
asus striker extreme II
E6600
2x2GB DDR2
1xATI 4870 512mb
128gb SSD

I just want to use TEC's on the CPU and GPU and I want components that make me possible to upgrade later to an i7 cpu ie, with other brackets or wtever, and I also wish to add another gpu in the future with a TEC too.

My question is, what TEC's should I use and what waterblocks do you recommend?
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Old 10-13-2009, 05:18 AM   #2
zipdogso
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Unfortunately your questions aren't easy to answer

Well first you need to decide if your going to use direct die cooling or a chiller setup

If your OK with DIY, basic metalworking etc you'll be OK but if not your choices are extremely limited.

Direct die solutions are available but if your planning a move up to i7 and beyond it could be awkward especially if your an overclocker.
TEC's have plateau'ed in terms of power and as you need to use a single TEC for direct die it is getting difficult to get powerful enough TEC's and it also starts to get difficult to cool the TEC - you generally have 2 - 2.25 times the cooling power coming of the hotside as heat. The other problem is you need to run these TEC's at high power and their efficiency in that mode of operation is dire so they are expensive to run. You can build better units yourself but unless you have a very good idea what your doing and a plan it will be easier to get a prebuilt like a swiftech.
Swiftech have had an i7 unit under design for months, it is well over the projected time for public distribution and as yet there is nothing on the horizon.

Chiller setups like the boreas are available but they are designed to be run from the PC PSU....they work...that is attestable but a properly constructed home built unit will leave it behind in it's dust. But you need to understand properly how TEC's work to get the best from them so you should expect to do some homework - everything about TEC's CANNOT be conveyed in a few "help me" threads on here.

Direct die on CPU - The TEC you need to use should have a Qmax of at least 1.25 - 1.5 times the max heat output of the CPU you are using - if overclocking you need to allow for that too. This should give you a small overhead on the the cooling power, which will in turn gain a little efficiency. Going a long way over the required power will, depending on the input power you choose, allow you to either improve your lowest temps OR increase the efficiency. Note Qmax (or sometimes Qcmax.) is NOT the input power i.e. Voltage times Current. The input power is the figure often quoted as a teaser to get people to buy the units - you must look at the Qmax (which will often be considerably less.) which should be listed in the specs of the unit if the seller is worth their salt. The waterblock should be capable of completely covering the TEC surface. This is difficult once you get to powerful TEC's because size matters and the powerful TEC's are generally 62mm square - too big for most waterblocks they usually have a raised contact area of course if you can find a completely flat block great but they are a few and far between. The solution is to use a copper plate or a specialist block like the one's made by Ultrasonic2 or a stinger waterblock. You will also need a copper plate on top of the CPU - The TEC must be completely covered on both sides. The other problem is pressure - ideally you need to pressure the TEC to 150-300 p.s.i. incorrect pressure will have a marked effect on the heat transfer - most heatsink assemblies for the CPU are designed to apply about 75 p.s.i. so some blocks are too flimsy to take the pressure required for a TEC. Some people use a "bolt -through" method with a back plate on the mobo which is fine so long as you dont crack your CPU but I prefer to pressure the TEC independantly between copper plates then apply that to the CPU but this method is more work.

Direct die on GPU - this can be a right PITA the GPU chips are small and you generally need a powerful TEC - a 62mm square unit. The difference in sizes is what causes the most difficulty with the lack of room for the TEC cooling being the next problem especially if you use more than one card. Personally I'd find it too difficult to bother....use a chiller instead.

Chillers - prebuilt ones have a current limitation because they are powered from a PC PSU. Current = cooling power and if your current limited then you are current limited no matter how many TEC's you use - The boreas has ten TEC's..or is it 12...cant remember. The theory of the boreas is great i.e. you use a large number of TEC's undervolted but due to the current limit they aren't as powerful as they could be and attempts to MOD these units to get them better...while possible...it's awkward to say the least. And of course these units aren't cheap. A home built unit wont have this current limit and will be more powerful and theoretically you can build a chiller to any size. But don't think it will be cheap - it is amazing how costs build up. As I said before a chiller will require you to know your TEC's and have a good basic understanding of electrical circuits.

All things said I don't think you know enough about TEC's to build a unit otherwise you wouldn't of phrased the questions the way you did BUT that doesn't mean you can't do it. Otherwise as I said you use a prebuilt unit and observe the specs before buying.
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Last edited by zipdogso; 10-13-2009 at 04:19 PM.
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Old 10-13-2009, 04:37 PM   #3
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I7 TDP is threw the roof, and well the 5870 is up there pretty high 187 watts

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=236015

good post about TDP one different architectures.

starting small is easier, a whole rig would be hard.
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Old 10-13-2009, 09:36 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zipdogso View Post
Unfortunately your questions aren't easy to answer

Well first you need to decide if your going to use direct die cooling or a chiller setup

If your OK with DIY, basic metalworking etc you'll be OK but if not your choices are extremely limited.

Direct die solutions are available but if your planning a move up to i7 and beyond it could be awkward especially if your an overclocker.
TEC's have plateau'ed in terms of power and as you need to use a single TEC for direct die it is getting difficult to get powerful enough TEC's and it also starts to get difficult to cool the TEC - you generally have 2 - 2.25 times the cooling power coming of the hotside as heat. The other problem is you need to run these TEC's at high power and their efficiency in that mode of operation is dire so they are expensive to run. You can build better units yourself but unless you have a very good idea what your doing and a plan it will be easier to get a prebuilt like a swiftech.
Swiftech have had an i7 unit under design for months, it is well over the projected time for public distribution and as yet there is nothing on the horizon.

Chiller setups like the boreas are available but they are designed to be run from the PC PSU....they work...that is attestable but a properly constructed home built unit will leave it behind in it's dust. But you need to understand properly how TEC's work to get the best from them so you should expect to do some homework - everything about TEC's CANNOT be conveyed in a few "help me" threads on here.

Direct die on CPU - The TEC you need to use should have a Qmax of at least 1.25 - 1.5 times the max heat output of the CPU you are using - if overclocking you need to allow for that too. This should give you a small overhead on the the cooling power, which will in turn gain a little efficiency. Going a long way over the required power will, depending on the input power you choose, allow you to either improve your lowest temps OR increase the efficiency. Note Qmax (or sometimes Qcmax.) is NOT the input power i.e. Voltage times Current. The input power is the figure often quoted as a teaser to get people to buy the units - you must look at the Qmax (which will often be considerably less.) which should be listed in the specs of the unit if the seller is worth their salt. The waterblock should be capable of completely covering the TEC surface. This is difficult once you get to powerful TEC's because size matters and the powerful TEC's are generally 62mm square - too big for most waterblocks they usually have a raised contact area of course if you can find a completely flat block great but they are a few and far between. The solution is to use a copper plate or a specialist block like the one's made by Ultrasonic2 or a stinger waterblock. You will also need a copper plate on top of the CPU - The TEC must be completely covered on both sides. The other problem is pressure - ideally you need to pressure the TEC to 150-300 p.s.i. incorrect pressure will have a marked effect on the heat transfer - most heatsink assemblies for the CPU are designed to apply about 75 p.s.i. so some blocks are too flimsy to take the pressure required for a TEC. Some people use a "bolt -through" method with a back plate on the mobo which is fine so long as you dont crack your CPU but I prefer to pressure the TEC independantly between copper plates then apply that to the CPU but this method is more work.

Direct die on GPU - this can be a right PITA the GPU chips are small and you generally need a powerful TEC - a 62mm square unit. The difference in sizes is what causes the most difficulty with the lack of room for the TEC cooling being the next problem especially if you use more than one card. Personally I'd find it too difficult to bother....use a chiller instead.

Chillers - prebuilt ones have a current limitation because they are powered from a PC PSU. Current = cooling power and if your current limited then you are current limited no matter how many TEC's you use - The boreas has ten TEC's..or is it 12...cant remember. The theory of the boreas is great i.e. you use a large number of TEC's undervolted but due to the current limit they aren't as powerful as they could be and attempts to MOD these units to get them better...while possible...it's awkward to say the least. And of course these units aren't cheap. A home built unit wont have this current limit and will be more powerful and theoretically you can build a chiller to any size. But don't think it will be cheap - it is amazing how costs build up. As I said before a chiller will require you to know your TEC's and have a good basic understanding of electrical circuits.

All things said I don't think you know enough about TEC's to build a unit otherwise you wouldn't of phrased the questions the way you did BUT that doesn't mean you can't do it. Otherwise as I said you use a prebuilt unit and observe the specs before buying.
good stuff ZIP
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