Gunk in my stuff ... WB & Res

shazza · 09-29-2009, 10:31 AM

Hmmnnn ... going through my stuff and found I had an issue with a bunch of gunk in my EK 4870x2 water block and my XSPC res top. These were used in the Torture Rack build initially, then I changed them out. Obviously, I did not clean them thoroughly before putting them away (

)

So, first the res:

Getting build up on the sides of these is not all that unusual. I'm not sure the XSPC res is any worse than other acrylic reservoirs, but it is a pain to clean because of the square sides. But, this residue is more concentrated than I've seen before:

Now let's take a look at the GPU waterblock:

Yucckkkky. It used to look like this

A few closeups of the gunk:

That last pic looks like maybe bits of tissue or something stuck at the edge of the grooves where the water is to pass through.

And, it coated the inside of the bitspower fitting that was on the outlet to the res (I scratched some off so you can see the buildup):

Radiators were thoroughly cleaned, and water blocks were rinsed, before use, but not taken apart. EDIT: Have pretty much come to the conclusion the source of the deposits in the reservoir and water block was radiator flux. Even though they were rinsed, it appears that flux dissolved/was released into the loop after several days of running at load.

Tubing was Tygon Tygon B-44-4X Food, Milk and Dairy Laboratory tubing. It was clear upon installation and for the first day or so:

A pic of the tubing a few days later. Don't have a good shot, but no visible gunk in the water block.

When I pulled the tubing off, it had a residue inside (that could be cleaned out). Again - this wasn't all that surprising, as I assume it was plasticizer leach. (Wonder how much of that stuff gets in our food???)

So, what's the point of this post? Just sharing some photos. I've seen the effects of plasticizer leach before - just not quite this bad. Didn't help that I let these sit around for a couple of months before checking them. I'm in the cleaning process now.

Note that I'm not at all saying this is the responsibility of EK or XSPC - it is a risk when using acrylic blocks, but my other ones are all looking good (using Feser One).

Will update as I go through the cleaning process. I'm guessing I'll have to take the top off of the EK waterblock, and I'm not looking forward to that. Did it on a GTX 285, and it is an absolute devil to get the washer in and the top on correctly.

SoulsCollective · 09-29-2009, 11:02 AM

That's really unusual. Are you 100% certain that there was nothing else in the loop that could give that kind of a buildup? I've never heard of anyone having such problems with the Food/Dairy stuff, which is why I recommend it and use it in client builds.

Kaldor · 09-29-2009, 11:13 AM

What were using for coolant? It is possible that the coolant you were using will leave a residue after it evaporates completely. Think water spots after you wash your car type thing.

Wezly · 09-29-2009, 11:14 AM

I noticed the same buildup on my tubes whenever I change the water out (out of boredom or new parts/fixing issues).

I don't think it has affected my blocks though. I'll take a closer look next time I have to do maintenance.

shazza · 09-29-2009, 11:15 AM

I thought it was a bit unusual as well, but definitely know I didn't help by letting things sit for such a long period. The stuff in the GPU waterblock is pretty thick, and "gunk" describes it well. It does seem to be fairly water soluble, but the issue is getting it out of the areas between the block and the acrylic (looks like I should have tightened the top some before using it originally).

As with most of these things, I can't be sure something else wasn't going on besides plasticizer leach, but it's hard to imagine where else this concentration of stuff would come from.

The only "Coolant" in use was distilled water - no additives at all. And, like Wezly said, it's common to see the build up in tubing - also quite common in the XSPC res, just not usually this thick.

I'm going to do some experiments with soaking my tubing. See if I can get it to leach before I install, and then clean it nicely beforehand.

voigts · 09-29-2009, 11:22 AM

I had the exact same thing happen on my last case. I bought 2 new MCR320s, rinsed them out good, and after about 3 months or so I took it apart for some changes and the inside of the XSPC top, pump impeller, etc. were all covered in a greyish film that looked like what you have. I think that it was from flux residue that didn't make it out of the rads despite soapy water rinsing. Once I took things apart and cleaned them well, I didn't get that film again. The film definitely was not growth of any kind, and it also definitely was not plasticizer. There was way too much for it to be that.

With this build and 2 more new MCR320 rads (nothing wrong with the first set but I customized them for the last case so they are going to stay with it when I sell it), I not only used hot soapy water, I also used a good shot of DOW Scrubbing Bubbles with about a 5-10 minute soaking. Everything looks clear so far. I personally think that just hot soapy water may not cut it for getting all of the initial gunk out of all new rads.

Johnmark · 09-29-2009, 11:49 AM

"Again - this wasn't all that surprising, as I assume it was plasticizer leach. (Wonder how much of that stuff gets in our food???)"

I concur, the likely source of the laydown is due to the acrylic is used in the blocks. High temps seen by water blocks with acrylic will cause various hydrocarbons (used to make the plastic) to leach out of it (fact). Derlin is much better for application where higher temps are encountered.
There are many grades and types of plastics made these days. Most food grade products use high grade plastics of a specific type that do not leech.
Plastics used in general consumer products run the gambit from off spec product sold to make products, to high end plastics that have special properties to prevent leeching,etc. eg. ever buy garbage bags and seen little dots in the plastic? If so the manufacture is using off spec product to make those bags.

shazza · 09-29-2009, 12:40 PM

Thanks guys - the more I think about it, I think radiator flux may certainly have played a part. Even though the rads were flushed with hot water, it's possible some flux was leached out during prolonged running under heat load. Interesting that I saw no build up when I tore it down after using primochill tubing and the T3 res. It's possible that the flux had been pretty well cleaned out by the time I dismantled the loop and redid it with the primochill/T3.

This was the first time I've used Magicool rads. I do know I had a similar problem with one of my Thermochill PA120.3s ... took forever to get the gunk out.

Jokester_wild · 09-29-2009, 12:53 PM

Yeah I had the same thing happen to me, i just had mine apart last weekend. seems like I didn't clean new parts out as much as I should have done.

oh and the bitspower res led fitting is a waste of time if anyone was curious lol

Oli4v · 09-29-2009, 01:04 PM

Happened to me to, but noth that worse, my ek 4870 block's (the 1 year old one other is new) was quite dirty after 1year, plexi top of my supreme = idem, bp fittings, all of them ..., x-top v2 for my moboloop also, 'cause there was standing water in it for like a month ...

rambler358 · 09-29-2009, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shazza

Hmmnnn ... going through my stuff and found I had an issue with a bunch of gunk in my EK 4870x2 water block and my XSPC res top.

How did you find out about the gunk issue, did you notice a decrease in flow rate? And did you check your CPU block as well?

shazza · 09-29-2009, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rambler358

How did you find out about the gunk issue, did you notice a decrease in flow rate? And did you check your CPU block as well?

I noted the tubing clouding - but figured that was normal. Didn't really notice anything odd in the GPU block or res while it was running - no problems with temperatures or obvious signs of build up. I took it apart, switched out the GPU and res a couple of months ago - then saw the build-up yesterday when I pulled the parts out to use for a different build.

The CPU block shows a very small amount of clouding in the acrylic, but no obvious gunk build up - it is a Nexxus High Flow block, plus it stayed in use for the second round with the Torture Rack.

I will definitely rinse blocks thoroughly before storage - common sense, actually.

eth0s · 09-29-2009, 02:54 PM

That stuff looks like hard water scale to me, which is also known as calcium carbonate. Scale comes from high pH levels of the fluid, which causes calcium and magnesium salts to leach out of the water and attach to any surface contacting the water. The remedy is to add a slightly acidic substance to bring the pH back down to neutral, i.e., 7.0. You could try rinsing and soaking in vinegar to see if it removes the scale. If vinegar does not work, you may need a stronger concentration of acid to remove the scale. Now the question is: where did it come from? If you only used distilled water that is a mystery. The biggest source of calcium carbonate in any loop is adding automotive anitfreeze, or any pre-mixed coolant that contains antifreeze or a corrosion inhibitor. The Corrosion Inhibitor is calcium carbonate. But you say you did not use anything like that, but maybe it carried over from a previous build? Or came from rinsing with tap water? OR from "topping off" the loop with some tap water? Or maybe it leached out of the tubes, or the rads, or the acrylic. Anyway, I am at a loss to explain where it came from.

You mentioned that you wondered what was leaching from the plastic we use to eat and drink with. Well the most dangerous substance that can leach from plastic and into our bodies is Bisphenol A, which is a xeno-estrogen. This powerful hormone wreaks havoc on our bodies and is responsible for uterine cancer in women and decreased testosterone levels in men, but is absolutely devastating to children and babies. Bisphenol A (BPA) is banned in Europe for all children's products. But here in the good 'ole US of A, thanks to the awesome political power and greed of American coporations, this substance is still poisoning us and our children, and we have to rely on our old friends the trial lawyers to try and stop it. In March 2007, a billion-dollar class action suit was commenced against Gerber, Playtex, Evenflo, Avent, and Dr. Brown's in state court in California for harm done to babies caused by drinking out of baby bottles and sippy cups containing BPA. Will this one lawsuit be enough to stop these irresponsible companies from poisoning our children? I doubt it. But regardless of what happens in that litigation, to be safe, always use glass bottles.

shazza · 09-29-2009, 03:09 PM

Thanks for the reply, eth0s. Only distilled water used - from the same bottle that was used in another build at the same time with no issues. Yes, the residue on the sides of the res looks like hard water deposit. The residue in the block and fitting is almost like a very thin sludge - more like what I've seen with radiator flux. My training was as a "Cement" chemist, so I've had a few years studying calcium carbonate and all its variants

I really should send some of the residue into the lab for identification.

I was a bit tongue in cheek with my "what's in our food" comment - although I do know it can be a real issue. I will give the B44-4X Tygon tubing a try in another build.

NaeKuh · 09-29-2009, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shazza

Only distilled water used - from the same bottle that was used in another build at the same time with no issues.

What tubing did u use?

Im guessing its the plastercizer residue.

Is it kinda flaky?

Quote:

Originally Posted by shazza

Tubing was Tygon Tygon B-44-4X Food

Meh... that throws out the plasticizer.

It had to be something else.... did u clean out the T3 b4 you threw it on?
Was there a part you didnt clean out?

Meh... im starting to hate tygon more and more, because that looks like what happens when i use tygon also.

Are you sure you got that tubing? because that tubing has no plasticizer in it.

BrokenArrow · 09-29-2009, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eth0s

Scale comes from high pH levels of the fluid, which causes calcium and magnesium salts to leach out of the water and attach to any surface contacting the water. The remedy is to add a slightly acidic substance to bring the pH back down to neutral, i.e., 7.0.

Good point. I guess I will need to start testing the computer water along with the swimming pool water.

NaeKuh · 09-29-2009, 03:50 PM

guys she used B-44-X + Distilled.

So... either the tubing was BS. Or her coolant was BS.

Or she missed cleaning something... or her hubby came along and dump'd milk while she was out and about.

I honestly cant see another possibility.

B-44-X is plasticizer free tubing.
Distilled.. well i hope u used pure distilled...

rambler358 · 09-29-2009, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NaeKuh

guys she used B-44-X + Distilled.

Yeah, I was wondering what might cause high pH levels in distilled water.

shazza · 09-29-2009, 03:58 PM

I'm still guessing it's radiator flux.

The second batch of tubing was Primochill PRO - LRT blue. I'll double check it now to see if there's any residue in it. The primochill T3 reservoir was swapped out with the XSPC - it's been emptied and is quite clear.

I still have some of the same batch of Tygon B44-4X tubing, so I can play around some more.

NaeKuh · 09-29-2009, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rambler358

Yeah, I was wondering what might cause high pH levels in distilled water.

where did she say she had a high pH?

I think im missing some vital info...

I know distilled can vary immensely on how long its been left outside.
You open a bottle of distilled, it can have a pH of around 6-7.

Leave it open for a while, and depending on what the air content is, it can go as low as 4 and as high as 9.

shazza · 09-29-2009, 04:05 PM

Seriously doubting there was a pH issue here, although I'm kinda liking that sabotage idea Naekuh referred to (the hubby is not fond of my water cooling experiments)

rambler358 · 09-29-2009, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shazza

I'm kinda liking that sabotage idea Naekuh referred to (the hubby is not fond of my water cooling experiments)

Time to trade up to a new model? Much like what we do in this hobby!

shazza · 10-02-2009, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rambler358

Time to trade up to a new model? Much like what we do in this hobby!

Gosh, after 30+ years, I think I better keep the model I have (I'd hate to try to break in another one

).

EDITED my first post to add my conclusion that I'm 99.9% sure radiator flux was the cause of my gunking.

Had a heck of a time cleaning the reservoir. Water flushing helped, 409 took a little bit out, but needed to use some 90% isopropyl alcohol rinses to get it really clean (thanks for the hint, Broken Arrow!). Obviously, I'm NOT recommending people use alcohol on acrylic. I was careful to rinse quickly and thoroughly, but am still watching the res for any signs of falling apart.

I've been running the B44-4X tubing in another Torture Rack build for a couple of days and not the slightest hint of clouding. The tubing has yellowed some - noticed this before I installed it, and you can see the slight yellowing in this pic:

CyberDruid · 10-02-2009, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shazza

Gosh, after 30+ years, I think I better keep the model I have (I'd hate to try to break in another one

).

EDITED my first post to add my conclusion that I'm 99.9% sure radiator flux was the cause of my gunking.

Had a heck of a time cleaning the reservoir. Water flushing helped, 409 took a little bit out, but needed to use some 90% isopropyl alcohol rinses to get it really clean (thanks for the hint, Broken Arrow!). Obviously, I'm NOT recommending people use alcohol on acrylic. I was careful to rinse quickly and thoroughly, but am still watching the res for any signs of falling apart.

I've been running the B44-4X tubing in another Torture Rack build for a couple of days and not the slightest hint of clouding. The tubing has yellowed some - noticed this before I installed it, and you can see the slight yellowing in this pic:

I second the suggestion to use a dilute white vinegar solution. I can almost guarantee this will return all the plastic parts to their normal clarity and dissolve the residue in the blocks.

Mild acid is what you need.

shazza · 10-02-2009, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberDruid

I second the suggestion to use a dilute white vinegar solution. I can almost guarantee this will return all the plastic parts to their normal clarity and dissolve the residue in the blocks.

Mild acid is what you need.

OOps ... I forgot to include that I also tried vinegar ... I should have taken pics, but was preoccupied getting it clean. Vinegar has worked before (although it did a nice job on my marble bathroom counter top

). In this case, it did next to nothing. Another reason I'm pretty sure it is a flux issue I'm dealing with. The alcohol worked like a charm. (DISCLAIMER - alcohol on acrylic parts is NOT RECOMMENDED - in this case, it was try it or toss it!!!).