Is it worth replacing Noctua NF-P12 1300rpm fans with Gentle Typhoon AP-15 1850rpm?
I have a bunch of Noctua fans on my rads. My water temperature tends to have a high delta compared to the ambient temperature; about 10 degrees celsius under load.
In order to help the cooling system, I'm thinking about replacing some of my Noctua NF-P12 1300rpm fans with Gentle Typhoon AP-15 1850rpm fans.
I'm under the impresion that Noctua NF-P12 fans have good static pressure which should make them good for radiator use. Are the GTs better at that?
Both fans have 9 blades, Noctua uses a straight blade, opposed to the GTs curved one.
Which one is better for radiator use? And if the GT is better, is it that much better that it's worth replacing?
I have 3 loops. I will detail them below. Don't tell me I have too many pumps, I like pressure.
CPU loop: EK Multioption 100 res -> 3 Laing DDC Ultra pumps in series -> 2 x TFC 480 rads with 8 Noctua NF-P12 1300rpm fans pushing -> Koolance 350AT CPU block
Ambient temperature: 24 degrees celsius. CPU (i7 975 D0 @ 4GHz with HT ON) idles at 37 degrees. Water during idle time 28 degrees. CPU under 100% load for a couple of hours, 70-72 degrees, water temperature goes up to 33-34 degrees.
MOBO & storage loop: EK Multioption 100 res -> 2 Laing DDC Ultra pumps in series -> 1 HWLabs 480 GTX rad with 4 Noctua NF-P12 @ 1300rpm pushing -> EK Rampage II Extreme MOSFET blocks (2) -> Koolance NB, SB & QPI full cover block -> 4 x Thermaltake Aquabay M4 HDD blocks (very restrictive).
Ambient: 24; Water idle: 30; Water load: 32
GPU loop: EK Multioption 100 res -> 2 Laing DDC Ultra pumps in series -> 2 x TFC 480 rads with 8 Noctua NF-P12 @ 1300rpm fans pushing -> 3 x EK GTX 285 water blocks.
Ambient: 24; Water idle: 28; Water load: 37 (after 1-2 hours of Furmark)
Computer is broken now, I used to have MIPS MOSFET blocks on the mobo and one leaked. Mobo is burnt and a replacement came just 2 days ago. I figured that while it's open I can work on it some more. Good part is that the new Rampage II Extreme came with the new X58 B3 revision (SLGMX); I don't know what's better about this revision, but it's newer so it should somehow be better.
My plan would be to replace some Noctua fans with Gentle Typhoon 1850rpm. I will not replace all fans, 20 GTs 1850rpm will make some noise... I was thinking about replacing 2 Noctuas with GTs in each loop, for a total of 6 GTs.
I have attached some pics of the MIPS block showing the leak and the damage inside the block.
Last edited by terente0081; 09-26-2009 at 08:01 AM.
wtf is that in your block?
id say maybe you have too much flow in those loops. the water goes through the loop before it can cool properly.
maybe try taking one ddc out of the cpu loop, i know those Koolance blocks are restricive, but they really arent 3 pumps restrictive.
Parallel Loop using EK MultiLink Reservoir CPU Loop: Heatkiller 3.0 CU (Nickel plated) - Feser 360 (S-Flex G) - MCP350 + EK Plexi Top - EK Reservoir
NB/SB + GPU Loop: EK 280 Nickel Plexi - Bitspower 780i Fullcover - Feser 240 (S-Flex G) - MCP355 + EK Plexi top
@zeropluszero: I believe what we see in that block is all the UV reactive stuff that was in the Feser cooling liquid. I noticed that while the other 2 loops were still highly UV reactive, this MOBO loop was losing its glow. A few weeks after, I left the computer on and went to the car wash. Came back home and found it off. When I tried to power it on, the led on the PSU turned red, indicating a short. This mosfet block turned out to be the culprit and that inside must be the UV reactive stuff...
About the Koolance block, I now bought the Watercool HK rev3 cooler and I will use that one instead. I believe high flow never hurts temperature, 3 pumps may however due to the heat dump.
@Hondacity: I see there is not much difference between the Noctua and the GT. I was under the impression that GTs are much better... Is that on a rad or free air? How's the static pressure on the 2 fans? Space restrictions don't allow me to do push pull. The rad panel has 4 TFC rads and cools the CPU and GPUs. 1st and 3rd CPU, 2nd and 4th GPUs. It eats halfway through the case right now, if I do push pull it will eat the whole case and leave no space to route the tubing. Check pics, you will see the rad panel and the case where it goes. There is really no room for push pull.
@Equinediver: Feser One F1 UV Clear/Blue. All loops use the same liquid, only that specific block was affected. All other blocks are 100% fine, even the other MIPS MOSFET block... no gunk buildup, they still glow like they did in day 1.
wtf is that in your block?
id say maybe you have too much flow in those loops. the water goes through the loop before it can cool properly.
maybe try taking one ddc out of the cpu loop, i know those Koolance blocks are restricive, but they really arent 3 pumps restrictive.
There is no such thing as to much flow, EVER. More flow is always better.
Regarding the fans, I would not expect there to be a significant difference between Noctua P and GT at the same RPM. But 1850RPM GT will kick the crap out of 1300 RPM Noctua but make more noise
Have you considered the airflow in the case, I think you should have better temps with that amount of radiator. But if you have a significant difference between fans blowing in to flows blowing out you will get crap air flow.
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Hmmm.... makes me wonder... I have all my detachable with Koolance VL3 QDCs. Even though the computer it all apart now, I haven't closely inspected other blocks in the loops. I only gave them a visual inspection and they seemed clean. Perhaps I should take some blocks off and see the inside... The only other block that I opened up was the other mosfet block, that came in line after the damaged one. That other mosfet block was 100% clean.
My thought is that the mosfet block started leaking, came in contact with the mosfets and started to corrode the block from the outside. There are corrosion marks on the outside as well in 3 places. From there on it's easy. Copper oxide was created (corrosion) and that's current conductive. Current must have been drawn from the mosfets area and conducted to the cooling block and things turned very wrong from there on... That's why the UV reactive stuff was all collected inside and the block started to leak and corrode even more. Just my thought...
@Fafeifa & @Jah: I already bought the 6 GTs so I might as well replace 6 Noctuas with the GTs.... it can't be worse, can it? I might now shave degrees off the components, but more air will help.
I don't have intake fans and I know that's bad for airflow... the whole case build negative pressure and sucks air from outside through 2 wide openings. One in the back (see photo attached to a previous message) and one on the top, under the top plate. The only way I can feed air for 20 fans would be with another 20 fans pushing air in, or less very powerfull fans. I have 3 Delta's... but if I use those, the PC will sound like a rocket. My temps aren't that bad to justify that
Last edited by terente0081; 09-26-2009 at 09:18 AM.
There is no such thing as to much flow, EVER. More flow is always better.
Regarding the fans, I would not expect there to be a significant difference between Noctua P and GT at the same RPM. But 1850RPM GT will kick the crap out of 1300 RPM Noctua but make more noise
Have you considered the airflow in the case, I think you should have better temps with that amount of radiator. But if you have a significant difference between fans blowing in to flows blowing out you will get crap air flow.
too much velocity can cause oxidation.
because it hits turbulence and cause tiny air pockets to from.
Seeing your rebuilding and had an issue too. I would switch all loops over to distilled and silver. Blue tubing and some LEDs will give you your bling. With all the rads you have, I doubt the heat dump is effecting your temps.
GTs are great for rads and have some good static pressure. They would be a bit louder than your Nocta's though and with all those rads you have, I'm not certain if you will see any temp differences, especially if your only going to put a couple of them on each rad. If your swap them all out you might though.
I would just change your coolant out and use what you got.
@demonchevy666: the loop where the "accident" occured was the less powerfull one. It's powered by 2 DDC Ultras, but it has 8 blocks on it and 4 of those (the HDD blocks) are very restrictive. I could barely see the water moving inside the res for that loop, while the other 2 loops were creating cyclone effects, even though the EK res were factory fitted with anti-cyclone separators.
@millertime359: I will closely inspect all other blocks and see if others were affected. I will consider switching to distiled + silver, it seems like a safer route...
Having a hard time picturing your air flow. But it looks like you have 16 fans pushing air out of an enclosed space, and no fans pushing air in...just two small passive intakes, is that correct? If so, first your ambients are probably higher than you think, especially at load, unless you are measuring your intake ambients inside the computer. And your air resistance trying to push air out with no intake will dramatically decrease air being pushed through rad. Found my post where I went through similar problem with air resistance in my internal rad setup, prior to balancing air flow (still lose 25% performance with internal rad from resistance, but initially lost 40%) http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=230570
I would leave the panel open, and check your water temps at idle and load versus true ambients (outside air will be outside measured ambients better to cool with outside air than internal if possible), and with panel open you lose resistance from restricted space.
You might get a little more air through rads with higher air flow, but I would try to balance air flow. I would even play around with cpu rads pulling in cool air from outside into that space, and have 2 other rads pushing that few C hotter air back out, cant be any worse than what I think you are doing.
@rge: It's not a good scenario, but the system works and it's very quiet. The fans blow air out, you can feel it from several feet on the rad side. I know some intake fans wouldn't harm... I have a hard time figuring how can I do that. The only way I can see it is turning some fans around and instead of them pushing air through the rad and out the case, they would pe pulling air inside the case through the rad. But wouldn't that hurt? The air coming in would be warm from the rad it's been pulled through.
Many more experienced watercoolers here than me helping you but I would think that your rads aren't getting any cold air. A rad will always perform at its best if it can get cold air directly from the outside of the case rather than getting hot air from inside the case. Have you tried just having the rads outside the case giving them cold air? Maybe worth a try, if for nothing else, just to rule that out.
Would it help if I turned all fans around and instead of working with negative pressure, I would deal with positive pressure inside the case? Eg. all fans pull air inside the case through the rads and hot air gets out through the passive holes that were meant as intakes until now?
You could give it a try, but I would think it would help if you had some more fans installed to help exhaust air if you do that. Also you flip the fans around, you will want to get some filters. Rads do perform better if they have colder air moving across them.
You could also try Woffen's approach or look at setting up a smaller case for your computer parts and housing all your W/Cing parts in an external case.
My guess is you have 2 problems. 1) your internal ambients are probably 3-4C higher than external ambients which you are measuring, so your delta air to water is lower than you think, so temps could be few C better by simply turning your fans around and bringing in cool air through them instead of pushing hotter air out. And dont worry about any internal components being heated. I was worried about that at first when I flipped my fans around. But turns out my ram load temps by IR gun dropped from 65C to 40C by dumping moving hot air from rad on them, and nb temps decreased as well. Moving air 3C hotter is much better than stagnant air 3C cooler, click on sig lian li and see fan near ram. Internal ambient temps ended up within 1C of each other regardless of fan direction.
2) From resistance you may be pushing less than half air through rad you should be. If you turn fans around (give you 3-4C improvement from lower ambients and you will get true picture of delta air to water if all you are measuring is external ambients), and mount 2 exhaust fans on back, 140's if possible, that might give you another 10-15% by lowering resistance (at least that is what I gained back, you may get back more since you are starting with no exhaust fans). Since intake fans will be going through a filter and rad, you probably only need 1 high cfm exhaust for every 4 or so non push-pull fans. And if your resistance is still cutting 30-40% cfm compared to external rad cfm after that, 40% of GT through rad is still better than same through lower noctua.
If you decide to turn fans around, like previously mentioned get fan filters, but get these that dont hurt performance more than ~10-15%, about what they do to mine and one other person that measured. http://www.petrastechshop.com/12alfanfibl.html
What if I turn just a part of the fans to blow in? I have a total of 20 fans mounted on rads. What if I turn 8 of those fans to pull air inside the case, while the other 12 will exhaust it? I could turn the fans for CPU and GPU 2nd rads to pull air inside the case and have the other fans, CPU & GPU 1st & 3rd rads and mobo rad exhaust. It will still be negative pressure, but much reduced. Would this work? It looks like something I can do... I could place 8 GTs to pull air inside the case and 12 Noctuas to blow it out. That would be very balanced. But again, wouldn't that hot air pulled inside the case mess with the temperatures?
I would try it just as an experiment. I would however use all cpu rads intake cooler air, and all gpu rads take 2-3C hotter expelled air, since gpu 2-3C makes no diff.
You will have better exchange of air, would not be surprised if internal ambients only changed a degree or so, but worst case would only be 2-3C on gpu, which drop in resistance would likely make up for.
take a look at this thread
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