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Thread: Rad Rating Thread.

  1. #1
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    Rad Rating Thread.

    UPDATED: We are assuming a few variables about your system...

    Assume: 1.5GPM Flow Rate - (This would probably be close to what most systems run, and differences result in very little difference in radiator thermal performances).

    Assume: 10C Water to Ambient Delta - This is pretty standard, I've seen a few cases of 15C for the 80mm rads, but 10C is pretty common.
    Note:This is just how much hotter the coolant will be than the ambient temperature. People need to understand it's just a number, and if you want better cooling, this is one of the most important areas you can improve upon. It's not that hard to keep water/ambient deltas less than 5C if you have plenty of radiator capacity.

    Assume: Nexxus Fans at 12V - While we probably see more people using Yate Loon D12SL12s, most of the available thermal curves for radiators have used the Nexus fans at 12V, yate loon data just is not available.


    RAD USED________________________________ Approximated Thermal Dissipation.
    ThermoChill PA120.1 Single 120mm fan ------------------------- 175w
    ThermoChill PA160 Single 120mm fan --------------------------- 220w
    ThermoChill PA120.2 Dual 120mm fans -------------------------- 345w
    ThermoChill PA120.3 Triple 120mm fans ------------------------ 490w to 510w

    Swiftech MCR120-QP Single 120mm fan ----------------------- 170w
    Swiftech MCR120-QP-K Single 120mm fan --------------------- 170w
    Swiftech MCR220-QP Dual 120mm fans ------------------------ 320w
    Swiftech MCR220-QP-K Dual 120mm fans ---------------------- 320w
    Swiftech MCR320-QP Triple 120mm fans ----------------------- 430w
    Swiftech MCR320-QP-K Triple 120mm fans --------------------- 430w

    Black Ice GT Stealth 120 Single 120mm fan -------------------- 000w
    Black Ice GT Stealth 240 Dual 120mm fans --------------------- 000w
    Black Ice GT Stealth 360 Triple 120mm fans -------------------- 000w
    Black Ice GT Stealth 120 X-Flow Single 120mm fan ------------- 000w
    Black Ice GT Stealth 240 X-Flow Dual 120mm fans -------------- 000w
    Black Ice GT Stealth 360 X-Flow Triple 120mm fans ------------- 000w
    Black Ice Pro Single 120mm fan -------------------------------- 000w
    Black Ice Pro II Dual 120mm fans ------------------------------- 000w
    Black Ice Pro III Triple 120mm fans ----------------------------- 000w
    Black Ice Xtreme Single 120mm fan ---------------------------- 000w
    Black Ice Xtreme 2 Dual 120mm fans --------------------------- 000w
    Black Ice Xtreme X-Flow Single 120mm fan --------------------- 000w
    Black Ice Xtreme 2 X-Flow Dual 120mm fans -------------------- 000w
    Black Ice Xtreme 3 X-Flow Triple 120mm fans ------------------- 000w
    Black Ice GTX Gen Two Xtreme 120 Single 120mm fan ----------- 000w
    Black Ice GTX Gen Two Xtreme 240 Dual 120mm fans ------------ 000w
    Black Ice GTX Gen Two Xtreme 360 Triple 120mm fans ----------- 000w
    Black Ice GTX Gen Two Xtreme 480 Quad 120mm fans ----------- 000w

    Koolance HX-360 Single 120mm fan ----------------------------- 000w
    Koolance HX-362 Single 120mm fan ----------------------------- 000w
    Koolance HX-420 Single 120mm fan ----------------------------- 000w
    Koolance HX-720 Dual 120mm fan ------------------------------- 000w

    MagiCool Xtreme Nova 1080 (9 X 120mm fans) ------------------- 000w
    MagiCool Xtreme Quad 480 (4 X 120mm fans) -------------------- 000w
    MagiCool Xtreme Slim Profile Single 120mm fan ------------------- 000w
    MagiCool Xtreme Slim Profile Dual 120mm fans -------------------- 000w
    MagiCool Xtreme Slim Profile Triple 120mm fans ------------------- 000w
    MagiCool Pro Slim Profile Single 120mm fan ----------------------- 000w
    MagiCool Pro Slim Profile Dual 120mm fans ----------------------- 000w
    MagiCool Pro Slim Profile Triple 120mm fans ---------------------- 000w
    MagiCool 1 X 120mm MC-120UVB Single 120mm fan -------------- 000w
    MagiCool 2 X 120mm MC-240UVB Dual 120mm fans --------------- 000w
    MagiCool 2 X 120mm MC-360UVB Triple 120mm fans -------------- 000w

    Alphacool NexXxoS HC 240-LE Dual 120mm fans ------------------ 000w
    Alphacool NexXxoS HC 360-LE Triple 120mm fans ----------------- 000w

    Evercool WC-R12 Single 120mm fan ----------------------------- 000w

    Glacial-EXM Dual Pass Single 120mm fan -------------------------- 000w
    Glacial-S Single 120mm fan -------------------------------------- 000w

    Thermaltake Aqua TMG1 Single 120mm fan ------------------------ 000w
    Thermaltake Aqua TMG2 Dual 120mm fans ------------------------- 000w
    Thermaltake AquaBay M2 Single 120mm fan ----------------------- 000w
    Last edited by Talonman; 01-19-2008 at 11:54 AM.
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    I can tell this is going to be a great thread I am especially interested in the GT Stealth 360 and the MCR320, the former I own and the latter I'm interested in

    Anyway, I'd contact MartinM, he has a ton of information regarding radiator and pressure drop testing which I think might factor into maximum thermal dissipation potential (what you're after).

    Good luck and I hope this thread becomes a really handy reference
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    I don't believe this is possible, as you would need the performance curves for each radiator and they would need to come off the exact same test bed.

    If it ain't watercooled, I don't wanna know.

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    What if we said no blocks, or all rads would be getting 6lpm of flow....

    I would like to take the blocks affecting the flow totally out of the equasion.

    I just would love to know the max cooling ability of each rad.

    Again, even a close rateing would help with buying decissions.
    Last edited by Talonman; 01-01-2008 at 07:22 AM.
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    What's the difference between the MCR-QP and MCR-QP-K?
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    Not sure, but they have them listed as different items on the sites selling them.

    The QP Single is $43.95, http://www.performance-pcs.com/catal...ducts_id=22813

    And the QP-K Single is $34.95, http://www.performance-pcs.com/catal...oducts_id=3495

    I'm guessing the QP is better?
    Last edited by Talonman; 01-01-2008 at 07:42 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talonman View Post
    Not sure, but they have them listed as different items on the sites selling them.

    The QP Single is $43.95, http://www.performance-pcs.com/catal...ducts_id=22813

    And the QP-K Single is $34.95, http://www.performance-pcs.com/catal...oducts_id=3495

    I'm guessing the QP is better?
    The first one that costs $43.95 it has an integrated reservoir.
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    I would love to know this too..

    Like you already said, we'd just need to set a fixed flow rate and also a fixed water to ambient delta.

    I think it's pretty standard to use a 10C water to ambient delta for heat dissipation curves, so that's a give me.

    Flow rate average is probably around 1.5 GPM.

    Fans as you mentioned is the 70.5cfm yate loons.


    Just for the heck of it, lets see if I can extract anything from my own persnal results:Unfortunately I only have figures for the slow speed 47cfm types in my own system.

    I see 4.0C delta water to ambient for about 125 watts(per the CPU calculator and an assumed 16 watts for pump heat dump) on an MCR320

    If I solve that (assuming a linear relationship) and 10C, that would be 312 watts.

    Now if I assume a linear relationship between CFM (which I know is wrong) that would be 312 x 70.5/47 cfm = 468 watts.

    But, I think that is off somewhat. The PA120.3 is a better radiator with more surface area, better pressure drop, and possibly better air flow pressure drop. So either my temperatures are slightly off or my heat dissipated is slightly off. Also saying a fan with 70cfm is 70/47 times better is incorrect, fans work just like pumps with a pressure/flow type of curve and pressure is equally as important especially with dense radiators. Anyhow it's tough trying to get a good "Watts dissipated" from anything other than using the exact same fans and having really good equipment to measure accurate temperature differences.


    But, swiftech does provide heat dissipated curves for the MCR320, just need to look it up here..

    This is with delta fans that are 75 cfm, so it's might be a little off with the two different fan types and pressure differences, but it should be in the ballpark)


    MCR220:


    MCR120:


    With 75cfm delta fans:
    MCR320 would be "about" 430 watts.
    MCR220 would be "about" 320 watts.
    MCR120 would be "about" 170 watts.

    The trouble is there really isn't much information out there for the other radiators other than swiftechs and thermochills, although I heard HWlabs may be doing some updates to there site soon with more data like this.
    Last edited by Martinm210; 01-01-2008 at 11:38 AM.

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    Thanks Martin, Your a scholar and a gentleman.

    Origional post updated.

    Do you think the QP-K's would also be rated about the same?
    Last edited by Talonman; 01-01-2008 at 11:39 AM.
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    From Thermochills graphs

    Using the Delta 75cfm fans at 12V:
    PA120.1

    PA160

    PA120.2

    PA120.3


    Results with Delta 1212M at 12V (75cfm), 1.5 GPM:
    PA120.1 = 175 watts
    PA160 = 220 watts
    PA120.2 = 345 watts
    PA120.3 = 510 watts

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    Quote Originally Posted by Talonman View Post
    Thanks Martin, Your a scholar and a gentleman.

    Origional post updated.

    Do you think the QP-K's would also be rated about the same?
    If the surface area is the same, it's probably very similar would be my guess.

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    Thanks again buddy!!
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    awesome thread idea...

    but i thought the pa120.3 was capable of 700w disapation.... maybe i drempt it?

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    Thanks .....

    I have never heard it rated that high.
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    my pa120.2 has a hard time handling 200 watts.

    i'd say use 40 cfm fans (middle ground) that way people could expect more or less depending on what fans they used.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Origin_Unknown View Post
    awesome thread idea...

    but i thought the pa120.3 was capable of 700w disapation.... maybe i drempt it?
    Actually, it's more like 600w top but with fans over 100 cfm only.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Isriam View Post
    my pa120.2 has a hard time handling 200 watts.

    i'd say use 40 cfm fans (middle ground) that way people could expect more or less depending on what fans they used.
    What block(s) are you using in your loop, that is accounting for your 200watts, and what is it cooling? A Q6600 makes around 200w to 250w of heat alone.

    This is where the various pumps and fans could also come into play.

    If 40cfm fans are the (middle ground), what is the CFM rating of the low speed fans they are using with their rads?
    Last edited by Talonman; 01-01-2008 at 12:39 PM.
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    I wish someone would make a calculator like the PSU calculator for watercooling . . .I am just not smart enough to figure this stuff out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Origin_Unknown View Post
    awesome thread idea...

    but i thought the pa120.3 was capable of 700w disapation.... maybe i drempt it?
    That's the scary part of talking watts. We should emphasis the "10C water delta", "fans" used, and flow rate (although flow rate has minimal change).

    The PA 120.3 is capable of dissipating 700watts, it just depends on the fans and water to air delta in temperature. The 490 watts is with 70cfm yate loons(10C delta, 1.5GPM), and the 510watts is with 75cfm Deltas(10C delta, 1.5 GPM).

    With a 40C delta and a 220cfm delta, we could probably make an MCR120 a 2000 watt radiator..

    I'm a silence is bliss old fart I guess, I like my 47cfm yates..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Martinm210 View Post
    That's the scary part of talking watts. We should emphasis the "10C water delta", "fans" used, and flow rate (although flow rate has minimal change).

    The PA 120.3 is capable of dissipating 700watts, it just depends on the fans and water to air delta in temperature. The 490 watts is with 70cfm yate loons(10C delta, 1.5GPM), and the 510watts is with 75cfm Deltas(10C delta, 1.5 GPM).

    With a 40C delta and a 220cfm delta, we could probably make an MCR120 a 2000 watt radiator..

    I'm a silence is bliss old fart I guess, I like my 47cfm yates..
    And because of this, I never really persued the Idea of trying to make a chart like this and is why I never state Wattage number for any piece of cooling gear becasue as you mentioned you can turn a MCR120 into a 2000watt rad with enough heat.

    Sadly, and understandably, many users feel that reccomendations are not enough and they need to see hard numbers. Hopefully those same people will understand that these numbers need to be taken into context.

    With that said Talonman should probably add (preferably in large letters) the conditions at which the rads were tested and a disclaimer stating that testng the rads under different conditions will yield different wattage numbers.

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    That is why I stated:

    Suppose we used a D5 pump, and Yate Loons rated at 70.5cfm, could we figure the Thermal Dissipation for all the rads listed? If so it might be handy for a quick reference chart, to help aid in buying decissions.

    RAD USED________________________________ Approximated Thermal Dissipation.


    I understand there are lot's of variables that can change the performance of a rad, but reject the idea that performance can't be charted, when just looking for a ballpark figure.
    A similar chart worked well for us to help determine the Loaded NB temp on the stock Maximus SE.

    I suppose we could ask for a rad recomendation each time, but I favor a chart myself.

    Keep the data flowing in. I think some will use the chart if we ever get it fully populated with our combined best guess. It would have the potential to keep a few bad purchases from being made.
    Last edited by Talonman; 01-01-2008 at 05:25 PM.
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    the problem is, you're going to have people going "this rad says it will support 500 watts and it isn't cooling my cpu and vidx3" with stats like this. i find it hard to believe a pa120.2 can cool 350 watts in any configuration.

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    I still wanted to know how you came to your 200w figure, that your pa120.2 is having a hard time cooling.
    Quote Originally Posted by Talonman View Post
    What block(s) are you using in your loop, that is accounting for your 200watts, and what is it cooling? A Q6600 makes around 200w to 250w of heat alone.

    This is where the various pumps and fans could also come into play.

    If 40cfm fans are the (middle ground), what is the CFM rating of the low speed fans they are using with their rads?
    I bet Marci could confirm our approximated data on the ThermoChill rads, using the fans I specified?

    He has never had a problem doing that.

    Here are some if my favorite posts made by, him that are related to rad performance:
    Quote Originally Posted by Marci View Post
    YateLoon D12SM-12 = 70.5cfm @ $5.95, and used with a PA120.3 and liq flow around 6lpm, would give approx 490w of Thermal Dissipation.
    My favorite post!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Marci View Post
    With what fans??
    That's the difference between them. Core is thicker on the GTX (dual row) thus requires higher pressure fans to penetrate it adequately.

    Pro and GTS = lower CFM fans
    Extreme and GTX = upper CFM fans

    A GTX vs a GTS with lowspeed fans up to a specific heatload, the GTS will win, but it's margin over the GTX will become smaller as you approach that specific heatload, at which point, the GTX will win as it has slightly higher thermal capacity. With Highspeed fans, the GTX will win more or less all the time.

    GT and GTS version - these are both the same thing. GT Stealth = GTS(tealth)
    The GTX is better than a GT or GTS with highspeed fans.


    Quote Originally Posted by Marci View Post
    Not really, but there is a way to work it out (in a VERY rough fashion).

    1 - Working out the heatload - ie: how many watts of heat you need to be able to cool.
    Max Power Consumption = Max Heat Output. Go here: http://www.extreme.outervision.com/p...ulatorlite.jsp

    Fill in only the CPU and GPU fields (ie: the fields for those items upon which you intend to mount a waterblock), and the pump field (as your pump dumps heat into the system too). Hit calculate, and knock 38w off the result. What you have left is your heatload. If you want to include chipset cooling, just add another 100w for sake of argument and assume you'll be left with headroom. I recommend googling to find out what kind of overclock folks get with similar stepping CPUs and at what vCore, and completing the "overclock my cpu" field with the relevant details, as heatload gets much higher once you start overclocking it.

    2 - Work out system flowrate
    Use the Flowrate Estimator to work out what your total liquid flowrate will be based on your selection of blocks etc etc. That'll give you an answer in gallons per minute.

    3 - Work out roughly what CFM you need combined with liquid flowrate to cool the radiator adequately.


    Take the answer from 1), and plot that on the vertical axis. Take the answer from 2) and plot that on the horizontal. Where the two cross, look for the nearest colored line. Each line represents one of 3 fans at either 12v or 7v.

    Pf H = Panaflo FBA12G12-H1A - 105cfm, 6.8mmH2O, 41.5dBA @ 12v (Factory spec)
    1212M = Delta WFB1212M - 72.4cfm, 3.4mmH2O, 34dBA @ 12v (Factory spec)
    Nexus = Nexus D12SL-12 - 36.8cfm, 22.8dBA @12v (Factory spec)

    You should be able to guage approximately what CFM-per-fan you need to be moving thru the radiator from some fudgy guesswork and approximations by dividing the space between the lines into equal increments etc.

    4) Choose your fans
    Once you know roughly what kind of CFM per fan you want to be using, you now need to find a fan that will produce that amount within your noise tolerance. Refer to the following data...



    Look along the horizontal axis for the CFM you need. Go up til you hit the first line. This is the quietest fan for the job. Now find that fan in the links below... and look at the green line on it's graph. Find your CFM on the horizontal axis, go straight up til you hit the green line. Now go straight across to the right. That's the rpm the fan needs to go at. Now go left from the rpm til you hit the BLUE line, and go straight up. That'll tell you what voltage you need to run that fan on to achieve that rpm, and thus achieve the desired airflow at the lowest noiselevel possible.

    Individual fan cfm vs noise vs rpm vs voltage graphs:


    Source: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=150261


    Doneskis. Your system should now be capable of returning coolant to [ambient + 10degC] (ish)

    If this results in your only choice being fans you consider to be excessively noisy, you can recalculate it settling for a final coolant temp of [ambient + 15degC] (so roughly 5 deg C higher temps all round basically - you always sacrifice temperature for noise and vice-versa... low temp = high noise, high temp = low noise) by substituting the PA120.3 dissipation graph above with the one below... but you'll need to use the "Liquid Flow Equivalents" converter to convert the answer from 2) into lpm, as I can't be arsed to translate the graph from lpm into gpm (sorry!!).

    I think by taking out all blocks, the Thermal Dissipation should be easer to calculate....


    Quote Originally Posted by Marci View Post
    Get your facts straight before you start throwing such weighty words about please...

    1 - The charts for BOTH products were produced by the SAME independant tester, Bill Adams... who undertakes independant testing for a fee. See www.thermal-management-testing.com - The Swiftech data is not represented on that site as the testing on their rads was undertaken whilst he was in employment by Swiftech (he also designed their MCR series rads). Since he was under employment by them, Swiftech own all the data produced so he cannot legally reproduce it on his own site which covers all the work he's done independantly to Swiftech (also note, Bill also worked on the Coolingworks radiator design)...

    2 - The data used for those charts was produced by two different test rigs at two different points in time... as the tester who produced the data has stated, these two charts are NOT directly comparable due to differences in the testing rigs. The tester (BillA) retested the MCR220 vs the PA120.2 for scaling of results... see HERE and the quote below.
    Long n' short, there are no charts you can use to compare the radiators in question due to testrig differences... and the only testing done of the two against each other in equal scenarios was by Radical_53. Whether this can be determined as conclusive evidence is entirely up to the end-user.

    In some scenarios (very low airflow - sub Nexus@12v) the PA120.2 beats the MCR320. In other scenarios (higher airflow - Delta1212 range and upwards) the MCR320 beats the PA120.2 - so, the question can only be answered without any fanboyism influencing the decision by providing us with the following info: What fans is one intending to use on the radiator? and What heatload do you intend to cool?
    Between the MCR320 and PA120.2, it appears to be a close race?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marci View Post
    Long n' short of it - the lesson to learn when testing large format radiators (Triple or Quadruple Fan Footprint) is that you must be able to produce a seriously large heatload for any differences between the two to become distinguishable... If the heatload is below the capacity of the radiators being tested, then both radiators will appear to perform very much the same, and any advantages of one over the other will be very difficult to detect. The miniscule differences in water temp vs the larger difference in temp at the CPU highlight this - a miniscule change in the temps of variables at the radiator can have a MUCH larger (relatively) affect on things elsewhere in the system - hence when Bill does radiator testing, he uses thermal probes to measure the coolant temps accurate to 6 decimal places. Flowrates measured in GPM to 3 decimal places.

    And hence radiator testing is a bit of a minefield for anyone to step into...
    I believe that.... and think that is why we should just keep it to approximations only.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marci View Post
    PA120.3 vs GTX480 with 50cfm fans, PA120.3 wins. With 70cfm fans, PA120.3 wins. Soon as you move to 80CFM fans on both rads, the GTX480 pulls into the lead ever so slightly (less than a degree at 80cfm, and at 100cfm GTX probably wins by 2 or 3 degrees) but you also have the increased space it takes up for those 2 degrees, so there are tradeoffs. But, BOTH rads have the same fans on, and thus produce the same noise. OBVIOUSLY any rad of same footprint or larger, with 100cfm fans, WILL outperform any other rad with 50cfm fans. It is the amount of airflow that determines how much heat the radiator can remove (assuming flowrates are constant)...
    Again, the importance of specifying what fans you are using.
    Last edited by Talonman; 01-01-2008 at 07:06 PM.
    Asus Maximus SE X38 / Lapped Q6600 G0 @ 3.8GHz (L726B397 stock VID=1.224) / 7 Ultimate x64 /EVGA GTX 295 C=650 S=1512 M=1188 (Graphics)/ EVGA GTX 280 C=756 S=1512 M=1296 (PhysX)/ G.SKILL 8GB (4 x 2GB) SDRAM DDR2 1000 (PC2 8000) / Gateway FPD2485W (1920 x 1200 res) / Toughpower 1,000-Watt modular PSU / SilverStone TJ-09 BW / (2) 150 GB Raptor's RAID-0 / (1) Western Digital Caviar 750 GB / LG GGC-H20L (CD, DVD, HD-DVD, and BlueRay Drive) / WaterKegIII Xtreme / D-TEK FuZion CPU, EVGA Hydro Copper 16 GPU, and EK NB S-MAX Acetal Waterblocks / Enzotech Forged Copper CNB-S1L (South Bridge heat sink)

  24. #24
    Xtreme Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
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    171
    So you go through this lengthy post stating that there many variables that must be controlled (in order to get meaningful results) and then want to generate approximations? I won't say "It aint gonna happen", but garbage in garbage out!

    Oh-where-oh-where is Bill A. .............rolling over in his beer soaked coffin?
    ASUS A8N32, FX-57, 6800GT's(SLI)
    PCP&C 1kw, Raptors, DDR600

  25. #25
    Xtreme Mentor
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    2,977
    I wan't exact numbers if I could get them.....

    Anything, even approximations would be better than nothing...

    Kind of like your post billb. I had hopes it actually furthered our cause when I saw activity in this thread.

    Turned out to be just a troll post.

    sad!
    Asus Maximus SE X38 / Lapped Q6600 G0 @ 3.8GHz (L726B397 stock VID=1.224) / 7 Ultimate x64 /EVGA GTX 295 C=650 S=1512 M=1188 (Graphics)/ EVGA GTX 280 C=756 S=1512 M=1296 (PhysX)/ G.SKILL 8GB (4 x 2GB) SDRAM DDR2 1000 (PC2 8000) / Gateway FPD2485W (1920 x 1200 res) / Toughpower 1,000-Watt modular PSU / SilverStone TJ-09 BW / (2) 150 GB Raptor's RAID-0 / (1) Western Digital Caviar 750 GB / LG GGC-H20L (CD, DVD, HD-DVD, and BlueRay Drive) / WaterKegIII Xtreme / D-TEK FuZion CPU, EVGA Hydro Copper 16 GPU, and EK NB S-MAX Acetal Waterblocks / Enzotech Forged Copper CNB-S1L (South Bridge heat sink)

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