Official Phenom Reviews Thread

[Shintai]

No, the reason AMD couldn't put more transistors (more cache) is because the barcelona is already consuming too much power @ 2.3 GHz (leakage) as it is. Their process technology has more leakage than Intel's at 65 nm. YOU are wrong about the cache, and you have not backed up your statement at all. Intel has put lots of cache on core 2 based cpu's because they CAN while remaining within their target TDP, and AMD CAN NOT. IMC does NOT alleviate the need for good/large caches to any significant degree. IMC helps in FAR LESS cases than a large and fast cache. The only good thing about K8/K10 is that the cores can communicate with each other at full speed, although it seems that isn't quite true either.

Cache dont use much power....On the old P4 Xeons with 16MB L3 it was 0.75W per MB at 3.73Ghz if im not mistaken. Logic is the heavy power consumer. Not cache. You can also see on thermal charts on dies that the cache areas are relatively cold.

You can also compare the power consumption of different cache size chips of the same archtecture.

I doubt another 5W or so wouldnt tip the iceberg if it added 5-10% more performance.

[Jethro]

Will the Phenom FX have the unlocked multiplier?

[JumpingJack]

Will the Phenom FX have the unlocked multiplier?

According to some reviews, AMD might be releasing an unlocked 9600 or 9500 before the end of the year... but to answer your question, yeah... the reports are that the FX will be unlocked too.

Though you may want to check around the forum RE the TLB errata, even if you get it unlocked there is no guarantee you will be able to get a good clock out of it.... the overclocking data is showing sporadic success, and more or less pretty poor, if you are lucky 2.8 GHz and on rare occasion 3.0 GHz... some report they can't get the 2.3 above 2.35 GHz. (See firingsquads review).

[justapost]

That's not true... I bought a MB 6 months ago that will accept the 1333 Mhz proc... drop in. In fact I have two boards that will take it... both Asus, purchased shortly after C2D launched. And compared to the Phenom I can expect a heck of alot more than 10%

You wil not be able to use DDR3 1600 together with penry i assume. For nehalem a new board will be required 2009.

I also bought an AM2 board with a 60 dollar throw away 3600+, but heck I can overclock that 3600+ to out perform the Phenom in most DT, so that drop in will not occur.

After a bios update my asus m2a-vm supports DDR2 1066. According to amd slides 45nm am3 parts will work in am2 boards.
Looking at current benchmarks an phenom update might not be usefull at the moment, things might look different with b3's or 45nm parts next year.
In normal office workloads and with not up to date software I do not believe you'll get even close to 10%.
But i plan to get both platforms and create my own benchmarks using HP's loadrunner tool to find the best platform for my companies needs.
We run alot of old celeron based workstations at work, last year i started to buy am2 platforms, there was no need for more calculation power but having two cores at a little lower power consumtion (most of the time those workstations run more or less idle) is a nice thing in terms of responsibility . I'm happy to see that I will be able to upgrade processors till 2009 on those platforms, just in case more power is needed. I prefere to run the same platform on all workstations because it simplifies servicing.

I didn't know Q6600 @ 3.6GHz or Yorkfield @ 4GHz+ was only 10% faster than a buggy Phenom @ 2.6 - 3.0GHz max.

I don't run my system overclocked all day, from my perspective it's a waste of energy. I plan to test enegry efficiency with over and underclocked platforms to verify my allegations.

Hope you guys can understand that in my case of pc usage 10% more performance and overclocking cappabilities do not matter and why I'm still happy with amd's.

[YukonTrooper]

spider isnt a technology,its a platform
it doesnt have any features,its a cpu + mobo + gpu

I'm sure it's been quoted "technology" before, probably even by AMD. No reason to get technical about it, I'm sure people knew what I meant. At any rate it's horse manure.

[JumpingJack]

You wil not be able to use DDR3 1600 together with penry i assume. For nehalem a new board will be required 2009.

After a bios update my asus m2a-vm supports DDR2 1066. According to amd slides 45nm am3 parts will work in am2 boards.
Looking at current benchmarks an phenom update might not be usefull at the moment, things might look different with b3's or 45nm parts next year.
In normal office workloads and with not up to date software I do not believe you'll get even close to 10%.
But i plan to get both platforms and create my own benchmarks using HP's loadrunner tool to find the best platform for my companies needs.
We run alot of old celeron based workstations at work, last year i started to buy am2 platforms, there was no need for more calculation power but having two cores at a little lower power consumtion (most of the time those workstations run more or less idle) is a nice thing in terms of responsibility . I'm happy to see that I will be able to upgrade processors till 2009 on those platforms, just in case more power is needed. I prefere to run the same platform on all workstations because it simplifies servicing.

I don't run my system overclocked all day, from my perspective it's a waste of energy. I plan to test enegry efficiency with over and underclocked platforms to verify my allegations.

Are you Shakirou under an alias???

Nahh.. seriously, why would I want DDR3-1600 -- it doesn't do much, Intel's caching tech is clearly spectacular, uber memory is not needed for uber performance.

[hersounds]

Here I leave my contribution to the people who speak Spanish, is review tom's hardware translated.


19/11 Amd Phenom Tom's Spanish Review

http://foros.maximopc.org/showthread.php?t=42151

[justapost]

Are you Shakirou under an alias???

Who?
You did not get it i guess. Glad your happy with you intel platform.

And don't call me dude or smoke blower if you have a problem with my statements, actualy my surename is achim and the picture is authentic.

[JumpingJack]

Who?
You did not get it i guess. Glad your happy with you intel platform.

And don't call me dude or smoke blower if you have a problem with my statements, actualy my surename is achim and the picture is authentic.

Ok my apologies.

However, the staunch position I take is because you are misrepresenting data and facts. Look, Phenom is not a bad CPU, it is not a Prescott, it did in fact improve over their prior core... just not enough.

But to bumfoosul the data, like you need a whole new MB for a Yorkfield, well that is plain wrong. Claiming only 1-5% with the data clearly shows otherwise is wrong. Stating you need DDR3-1600 to get better performance is wrong. All your statements completely contradict the data.

Edit: For reference, this is shakirou ... he practices the same tactics: http://www.legitreviews.com/article/597/13/

[KTE]

My comments were based on experience of my work place bosses not just anecdotes. Its a government ran hospital. They contacted Intel Server Business Managment and one equivalent at AMD, as most corporations do. This was around September 5th. One at AMD replied very well mannered and straight away to come down with a test system to show them what they can offer, inside a week. The guy at Intel could not do so and gave a date 3 weeks later for Tigerton demo. The AMD Manager eventually booked an appointment to visit with a few test systems running software the work place needed. AMD reps promised that the 2360 SE will soon be available by December to them and showed them the demo of this system and SPEC figures. The work place IT management departement waited, they are in touch with all the major OEM vendors to find out as they needed ~100 16 core systems and ~150 8 core setups at that time. The work place was mainly after the 2350, which was in short supply for volume orders. AMD Manager stated to wait till October for more volumes, as they were short. Come 16th-October they received contact and full supply of K10h they wanted. Penryn and Tigerton however, which they were also after was not available in those quantities by 15th November, nor the setups they were after and little support with platform problems known in the industry like K10h had September 10th. 19th November, Barcelona is in a better position than Penryn is in the server market to corporations where it counts. Are OEMs supplied fully with support? I'm not sure, but HP doesn't want to sell them yet anyway because of platform problems, and thats a major point.

The only problem with Intels plan is, changing motherboards so concurrently. One of the major plus points in evaluating a processor is "ease and cost of system upgradeability" and Nehlem fails this, whilst Penryn doesn't. Thats a major put off in the server and desktop market, so they need all the PR work possible to make it attractive enough to consider buying when it releases, and I know I definitely won't be changing to a Nehlem/DDR3 after Penryn in the next 12 months, simply because of the platform costs. That's one plus point for AMD though, along with their motherboards being quite perfect for a gamer or multi-GPU setup. Intel only mainly has nForce 680i for this, which is a step backward for quad core. Intels 975X chipset is still one of the best I've seen, better than P35 and X38 in terms of pure perfromance at same clocks, even GPU performance, but still no decent CF/SLi. Quad-core overclock/performance and DDR3 is what has improved mainly with the new Intel chipset releases to reap better performance from their platforms and they do make good gains.

[JVguest]

Cache dont use much power....On the old P4 Xeons with 16MB L3 it was 0.75W per MB at 3.73Ghz if im not mistaken. Logic is the heavy power consumer. Not cache. You can also see on thermal charts on dies that the cache areas are relatively cold.

You can also compare the power consumption of different cache size chips of the same archtecture.

I doubt another 5W or so wouldnt tip the iceberg if it added 5-10% more performance.

You're right about the power consumption of cache, a quick check of data sheets shows the cache is not a big power eater.

That said, K10 is running hot and having trouble clocking high as well as yields. A big L2 cache definitely wouldn't help matters. AMD has lower SRAM density, that wouldn't be the only factor keeping them from using big L2 cache, the difference isn't that large.

[KTE]

Edit: For reference, this is shakirou ...

I'm not sure I understand people like this guy, although there are many of them on both sides.

[Donnie27]

You wil not be able to use DDR3 1600 together with penry i assume. For nehalem a new board will be required 2009.

After a bios update my asus m2a-vm supports DDR2 1066. According to amd slides 45nm am3 parts will work in am2 boards.
Looking at current benchmarks an phenom update might not be usefull at the moment, things might look different with b3's or 45nm parts next year.
In normal office workloads and with not up to date software I do not believe you'll get even close to 10%.
But i plan to get both platforms and create my own benchmarks using HP's loadrunner tool to find the best platform for my companies needs.
We run alot of old celeron based workstations at work, last year i started to buy am2 platforms, there was no need for more calculation power but having two cores at a little lower power consumtion (most of the time those workstations run more or less idle) is a nice thing in terms of responsibility . I'm happy to see that I will be able to upgrade processors till 2009 on those platforms, just in case more power is needed. I prefere to run the same platform on all workstations because it simplifies servicing.

I don't run my system overclocked all day, from my perspective it's a waste of energy. I plan to test enegry efficiency with over and underclocked platforms to verify my allegations.

Hope you guys can understand that in my case of pc usage 10% more performance and overclocking cappabilities do not matter and why I'm still happy with amd's.

Then you assume wrong. DDR3 boards are out now and since Intel will move to CSI, everyone interested is looking forward to getting a new board. As whole, Core architecture is less Memory Bandwidth Dependant than AMD processors. 1600MHz FSB processors wouldn't be hurt as much not only running with 1333MHz RAM but also with 1066. You'd have to do a lot of "Mega-Tasking" to notice a difference.

Don't matter if you under or over clock, both Kentsfield and Penyrn are more efficient than K-10. What joo talkin' bout? I'm sure this will be the same case with Dual Core Kuma.

Drop that 10% stuff since some apps are more than 10% and some are less. It's kind of funny that you'd complain about Not overclocking all the time. Your rig doesn't have enough Headroom to be overclocked much anyway. Penryn at 3GHz (is much more than 10% faster) is still cooler, uses less power and put off less heat than the Phenom at 2.4GHz LOL!

[nemrod]

You wil not be able to use DDR3 1600 together with penry i assume. For nehalem a new board will be required 2009.

Why not already on XS:

[justapost]

Ok my apologies.

However, the staunch position I take is because you are misrepresenting data and facts. Look, Phenom is not a bad CPU, it is not a Prescott, it did in fact improve over their prior core... just not enough.

But to bumfoosul the data, like you need a whole new MB for a Yorkfield, well that is plain wrong. Claiming only 1-5% with the data clearly shows otherwise is wrong. Stating you need DDR3-1600 to get better performance is wrong. All your statements completely contradict the data.

I claimed that 1-5% for real workload and added that i might be wrong because i did not follow penry stuff. Maybe it are 5-10% or even 15% if you use the latest software. You will not realise that speedup even if it's 15% under normal work. My X2-3800 felt a little faster running at 2,5 GHz (25% more Mhz). So i really don't care about +-10%. To get a better speedup you need up to date software and latest hardware, without overclocking.

Edit: For reference, this is shakirou ... he practices the same tactics: http://www.legitreviews.com/article/597/13/

Don't get paranoid, i do not use tactics and i'm not that guy.

[JumpingJack]

I claimed that 1-5% for real workload and added that i might be wrong because i did not follow penry stuff. Maybe it are 5-10% or even 15% if you use the latest software. You will not realise that speedup even if it's 15% under normal work. My X2-3800 felt a little faster running at 2,5 GHz (25% more Mhz). So i really don't care about +-10%. To get a better speedup you need up to date software and latest hardware, without overclocking.



Don't get paranoid, i do not use tactics and i'm not that guy.

Selectively pulling 2 data points to support a claim without considering the entire data set as a whole is called 'selective data analysis', it is a tactic used by many -- unfortunately, it is used by companies to... I have seen Intel do it, I have seen AMD do it...

[JumpingJack]

I'm not sure I understand people like this guy, although there are many of them on both sides.

I have seen them come from both sides.... it is my pet peeve -- it is one thing to argue, "hey, look AMD offers a good product for a good price", this is rational.

It is another to dilute the value of the competitor by twisting the data and facts to suit a predetermined view...

It is the sanity of the data and the contextual analysis (or lack thereof), I couldn't careless who it makes look better... just represent it correctly for goodness sake.

When a person selectively pulls one or two observations and extends that generalization as a whole either to prop up or deride one or the other... this is classic Sharikou tact.

[justapost]

U guys give ma a hard time, next time i'll add inaccuracies to percentage based statements to avoid this.

[JumpingJack]

U guys give ma a hard time, next time i'll add inaccuracies to percentage based statements to avoid this.

Nahhh... really, just spend the few minutes or so ensuring the data supports what you are wanting to say and we will all get along fine

Look.... the data is clear, AMD fell short this round. They are having a hard time financially, but if you want to make a case "AMD offers good value for the money, and can compete price/performance wise so long as it keeps it low, therefore I prefer AMD" this is a great argument. Nothing wrong with that. In fact, Phenom will sell well ... they have plenty of dedicated customers who, for any other reason, simply want to support the underdog. AMD has priced it well so it will sell, etc. et.

But you have in prior post made statements which are inaccurate, I will ultimately call you on those when I know the data states the contrary.

Jack

[KTE]

Also can anyone give some feedback here if they can get hold of Phenom X4 please? I'm sure they have supply problems.

I have been unable to get hold of any. I've been told X4 9500 ETA 28th Nov, X4 9600 ETA 11th December and X4 9700.. well probably March now.

U guys give ma a hard time, next time i'll add inaccuracies to percentage based statements to avoid this.

You're doing just fine bro. Just some people have been online for a while and day in day out have encountered extremists and brainwashed fanatics, so once they see a little similarity they take the offensive to stop the "presumed" fan from splattering any ridiculous blurb. That sort of "pre-emptive" action can be wrong many times based on little statements and people like yourself tend to get caught up with being wrongly convicted of AManiaDevelopment. I've seen you in threads around and I 'aint nobody to judge, but my own opinion is you're as balanced as anyone here.. based on what you might have read at any one time. There are "some" where you just can't say that though to speak the truth.

[John600rr]

Also can anyone give some feedback here if they can get hold of Phenom X4 please? I'm sure they have supply problems

I've been informed a ship date of 30 Nov for 9500 and zero info (aka: TBD) for 9600 and 9700.

This is from a smaller supplier, but only one I can use for work.

[justapost]

To get that 10% perfomance gain intel claims you need latest mobo, ram and software, way too expensive.

@jack
Uhm I was really inaccurate here.

I agreed with +-10% do not matter, as from my experience one realises a speed bump at around 25%.
In addition I wanted to say that getting the last percentage of performance out of a system you need latest hard and software, which is an expensive task and not efficient in terms of budget for average pc usage. Sound less offensive like that i hope.

ot:
@donnie
Bought that system before i dropped in here, just started playing with overclocking and i must say it's real fun.

@kte

[Plywood99]

Well, not dogging Amd but, I made the right move switching to Q6600 in September. Handwriting has been on the wall for some time folks. Hector has done what he does best and that is drive a company down. If Jerry was still in charge things would be far chipper now...


Ply

[red]

Who feels bamboozled?

[Jethro]

LOL @ Justapost sig =)

So even if my new Phenom system is 50% faster or more then my current setup should i cry if its slower then someone else's intel system by ________ (insert % here)? Will i drive slower in Need for speed? Will i type less words per minute!? Will my bullets be slower as well?!!! OMG will my games be unplayable?!!! What about CAD!! What about my epeeeni will it be shrunken? Oh man now ive worried myself.... Dam u AMD!