Pros and Cons Of Various Low Stage Refrigerants

[ak_47_boy]

Whats all the options for a low stage refrigerant, pros and cons, evap temps, condence temp and pressures. I have been trying to find info on these but couldnt find any.

eg.methane, ethane, ethylene, propane, CO2

thanks

[n00b 0f l337]

Methane ... Colder than Ethylene : Bad Capacity
Ethane ... Not as cold as ethylene : Not many cons?
Ethylene : Colder than Ethane : Hard to condense, highly dangerous, flamable like no other
Propane ... Carries all oils : Not a low stage refrigerant at all
Co2 ... Cold, doesnt carry oil so doesnt need an oil seperator : Dice forming in the evap.

[bh2k]

Methane ... Colder than Ethylene : Bad Capacity FLAMMEABLE
Ethane ... Not as cold as ethylene : Not many cons? FLAMMABLE
Ethylene : Colder than Ethane : Hard to condense, highly dangerous, flamable like no other VERY FLAMMABLE
Propane ... Carries all oils : Not a low stage refrigerant at all FLAMMABLE
Co2 ... Cold, doesnt carry oil so doesnt need an oil seperator : Dice forming in the evap. Not flammable

[n00b 0f l337]

Methane isnt terribly flamable, bunson burner anyone?
Ethane also isnt a huge flamer
Ethylene is the explosive
Propane isnt a huge flamer either
Co2 just isnt, its the anti-flame.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

I can not see that green at all it's like a big glowing green blob!

All refridgerant are dangerus if handled improperly, so flamable or not makes no diferance, long as you do the steps apropriately

[bh2k]

Methane isnt terribly flamable, bunson burner anyone?
Ethane also isnt a huge flamer
Ethylene is the explosive
Propane isnt a huge flamer either
Co2 just isnt, its the anti-flame.

Regardless of the fact they are not big burners they should be still treated as such. Never take a flammable material lightly.

[Tyrou]

CO2 -> non-flammable, cheap, easy to find, -70C range (if you're not berkut ), forms DICE in the evap/suction, a PITA to work with...
Ethane -> flammable, expensive, -90C range, not too hard to condense
Ethylene -> flammable, expensive, -100C range, harder to condense
R23/508 -> non-flammable, very expensive, -90C range, "real refrigerants"

I'd advise R23 if you don't want to use a flammable refrigerant, and Ethylene (R1150) if it doesn't matter, this thing goes like hell as soon as you're able to condense it

[wdrzal]

Does a refrigerant have to be flammable to be explosive ????????????





I don't think so

[n00b 0f l337]

Very true wdrzal!
Always chain down bottles of low stage refrigerant.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

and there is another whole facter you all have seemed to have ignored! Cryogenic Burns!

it dosn't need to be hot to cuase sever truma either, there was a guy at a local coledge had a brain laps and took his guages off with the velve just a hairline crack open, ended up with second degree cryo burns all over his arms and face! Like every one has said, every thing in this feild can either expload, Burn in a flame, Or burn flesh and there for ANY refridgerant should be treated as if it where a bomb ready to go.

!00% Cuation and observance at all times! even lighter Butane will give you a nasty 1st Degree if your not care full with it!

[n00b 0f l337]

Very True.
I always wear gloves when removing hoses and if I'm charging a unit that works, run the unit and suck the rest of the refrigerant out of the tubes to reduce the chance of freezing myself.

[eshbach]

Has anyone tried Ethane recently?

I think I am going to pick up a bottle.

It has better heat capacity and better thermal conductivity than Ethylene...

[lma01]

What about the following?
R41-R116-R1141 = -80ish
R744A = -90ish
R14-R1140 = -120ish

1140 & 1141 probably banned all over the world

[n00b 0f l337]

The difficulty of condensing prohibits a lot of those mixes in context to I think what most of us are talking about, autocascade competition.

[eshbach]

The difficulty of condensing prohibits a lot of those mixes in context to I think what most of us are talking about, autocascade competition.

well i plan on using ethane in a cascade before i try it in an auto for competition...

we'd need to play with any gas in a conventional system to get familiar with it before trying something experimental.

[lma01]

The difficulty of condensing prohibits a lot of those mixes in context to I think what most of us are talking about, autocascade competition.

Actually, I'm not talking about mixes for auto-k. I think about low stage refrigerant for a "simple" cascade. Anyway, R116 for exemple is not that hard to condense, i mean a lot easier than R1150 nor R23.

And btw, for an auto-k, you could try R-23/125/143a/1150 as at 18%/32%/40%/10%

[lma01]

Methane isnt terribly flamable, bunson burner anyone?
Ethane also isnt a huge flamer
Ethylene is the explosive
Propane isnt a huge flamer either
Co2 just isnt, its the anti-flame.

Ethane, methane, propane and ethylene are all A3 classified in the ASHRAE safety norm. That means they are highly flammable.
My aim is just to promote safety. Playing with such gases is more than a hobby, it's a "risky sport" and it must be done in the state of the art.

[ak_47_boy]

I have no refrigerant license to be able to purchase any gasses(other than c02 ect.). I was planning on getting a local AC professional to fill my setup for me.
Would a local AC professional have any of these gasses: R14, R1140, R744A, R22, R508. If he did would he even fill it? How much would is cost for a fill?
p.s. I live in Canada

Thanks for all the help

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Where in canada? Some good sources for R-134a and what not, IE: air dusters, and so on...

[lma01]

I think any HVAC professional can be provided with any gases & blends by Air liquide Canada, according to the applicable laws and rules.
But it will cost a lot because low stage refrigerant are a bit exotic for "private" applications. Quantity means cheaper price for those gases.

Btw, R1140 is largely prohibited now because it is highly toxic & flammable (B3 ASHRAE classified), and very polluant. Playing with this don't sound like a good idea for your health. Anyway, a HAVC professional will probably refuse to charge your system with it.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

according to law no cert no gass, you'll be lucky if they even talk to you.

How ever thanks to stupid laws there are obviusly and equaly stupid contradiction! IE they use pur R-134a in the air duster cans! so just get them and drain them into a properly build cylinder for charging systems

[ak_47_boy]

How hard is it to get a refrigerant certification in canada? Is it just a exam or do you need to take a college corse? Do you have to be age 16 or 21?

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Collage corse,,, usualy fiew month long,,, and not cheap, have to have full G12. so if you're don early no problem, then its just the couple grand you'll need for the corse! Look at BCIT's Trades entry level cert, corse.

But again there are loop holes you can do IE air dusters (R-134a) Lighter fillers (R600a (IsoButane)) R-290 (Propane) and with thoughs three and a scale & a cylinder of any type or size you can make some thing equal to R-22 and R-12. I'm going to take a corse in BCIT my self becuase I want to turn this hobby into a career so for me it will be worth it, but for you, do you intend on this as a hobby? and if so is it worth the time, effort, and money to get the required certs for it? or do you want it to be a life long career?

If you intend only as a hobby stick with making your own stufe with the sources I listed, they will suit you fine. the R-12 mix (20/80%mass weight of R-600a/R-134a) Performs beter then R-12 and you can get the two gasses every where (IsoButane and Air dusters for the R-134a).

[aussie_guy00000]

I've always got plenty of methane on hand , just ask my wife, it's pretty volitile stuff, really should cut down on the baked beans

[ak_47_boy]

lol