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Thread: The LCD Buyers Guide

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    Arrow The LCD Buyer's Guide



    Last updated: March 20th 2008

    Welcome to The LCD Buyer’s Guide. The purpose of this thread is to aid those who are planning on purchasing an LCD monitor in the near future to make the smartest purchasing decision, as well as to inform readers about some of the main characteristics of this technology. This thread will attempt to accommodate the needs of serious gamers, video enthusiasts, digital artists, regular application users, as well as users just looking for simple display to just surf the net or benchmark . Additionally, if you find any mistakes in this thread or a collection of grammatical errors, PM me and I’ll see of I can make these changes whenever I have time. I would greatly appreciate it.

    Glossary:

    First let us begin by addressing a few terminologies that may aid in the comprehension of liquid crystal displays:

    Key:
    Simple Term (long forms / Alternatives) = Definition and useful explanations. Note: In occasions, “Note:” will be used to point out common misinterpretations.

    Terminologies:
    TFT(Thin Film Transistor) = The technology behind LCD’s, which is a kind of transistor where a layer of thin film particles in each pixel bend when provided voltage in order to cover light or isolating colors from the backlight.
    LED(Light-Emitting Diode) = Is a semiconductor diode based technology that emits light in response to an electric current, also known as an electroluminescence (EL) effect.
    LCD(Liquid Crystal Display) = A type of TFT based display, more commonly used as computer monitors and television displays.
    OLED(Organic Light-Emitting Diode) = A type of LED based display with organic compounds, more commonly used with small devices like cell phones.
    VGA(Video Graphic Array) = An analogue interface, more common with old computer monitors and video cards, as well as CRT monitors.
    DVI(Digital Visual Interface) = A digital interface, used as a standard for newer flat panel computer monitors.
    Pixel = The smallest element of an image that can be individually processed in a video display system (dictionary.com). Physically speaking, each pixel on a color flat panel displays is comprised of a red, green, and blue diode, in addition to a white diode for very high luminance displays.
    Pixel Pitch = The linear measurement of a unit square of pixel area, most commonly measured with flat panel displays as the diagonally length of a single pixel (excluding spacing) in millimeters (mm). Smaller
    Screen Resolution = The measurement of unit pixels, usually measured by height and length in the following format: LENGTH x HEIGHT. For example: 800x600. Note: A higher screen resolution does NOT mean less anti-aliasing is needed. In this case, a high resolution with a small screen size would indicate pixels with small pixel pitches packed closer together, thus making aliasing (“jaggies”) less noticeable.
    Native Resolution = The maximum screen resolution in terms of the total physical pixel area. Due to flat panel’s static pixel nature, higher virtual resolutions are impossible, while lower virtual resolutions have to be resized by a computer integrated in the display that creates filler pixels for virtual resolutions that are not divisible by two with the native resolution.
    Dead pixels(Stuck pixels) = Damaged pixels or pixels that do not responding adequately to the signal it is receiving. This problem is more common with low-grade LCD’s.
    Backlight = The form of illumination used for LCD displays. Backlighting methods include Incandescent light, ELP (Electroluminescent Panel), CCFL (Cold Cathode Fluorescent Lamps), HCFL (Hot Cathode Fluorescent Lamps), and more recently LED’s. ELP’s are more common with smaller devices, because they give more uniform backlighting but require a high AC power source. Larger displays, like LCD monitors and televisions, more commonly use either one or many white CCFLs that cover most of the color spectrum. LED backlighting, although expensive at the moment, may become the standard backlighting method of the future because of its abilities to turn off and on very quickly during operation, thus giving very dark levels while increasing power and response time efficiency.
    Backlight Bleeding = An effect caused when some backlighting leaks out from the sides of the screen, resulting in lighter colored edges than the rest of the screen's surface.
    Contrast Ratio = The light intensity between black/dark levels and white/light levels. Higher contrast ratios usually equates to better black/dark levels.
    Luminance = Simply put, it’s the brightness level on a LCD, measured in nits or candelas per square meter (cd/m2). 1 nit = 1 cd/m2.
    Viewing Angles = The minimum degree of angle at which a screen can be viewed without losing image quality, measured by the angle of a perpendicular viewing cone who’s tip touches each pixel. Note: Many companies will measure the angle by how “acceptable” the image quality is instead of the minimum change in image quality.
    Response Time = The average time it takes a pixel to change from one color to another, measured in milliseconds (ms). Note: Response time is different for many combinations of color and contrast transitions.
    Delay Time = The average time it takes a monitor from the retrieval of a frame by the computer to its execution as an image on the screen.
    Input Lag = The effect resulting from a high delay time.
    Tr(Time Rise) = [Usually] the response time from 90% to 10% brightness. Sometimes measured from 100% ‘on’ to ‘off’.
    Tf(Time Fall) = [Usually] the response time from 10% to 90% brightness. Sometimes measured from ‘off’ to 100% ‘on’.
    TrTf(Time Rising & Time Falling) = Simply put, it’s the sum between Tf and Tr (not the average). For instance, 5ms Tr + 3ms Tf = 8ms TrTf.
    GTG(Gray-To-Gray / Grey-To-Grey) = Pixel response time measurement from one grey scale to another, and vice versa. GTG transitions are usually slower than WTB transitions.
    White/Black(White-To-Black / WTB) = Pixel response time measurement from fully black to fully white, and vice versa. WTB transitions are usually faster than GTG transitions.
    Motion Blur = An effect caused when pixel delay is enough with dynamic images that the image appears to be blurred. Note: Motion blur is a step below ghosting.
    Ghosting: = An effect caused when pixel delay is enough with dynamic images that the image appears to have fading antecedents. Note: Ghosting is a step further from motion blur.
    Mura Effect = An effect caused by an imperfection in the screen's homogeneity, and could be due to a factory error in the sealing process (more common with low grade LCD’s) or when too much pressure is applied on the screen. For illustrations or more information, go to: http://www.behardware.com/articles/5...ad-pixels.html
    Color Banding = An effect caused by inaccurate color representation of the color scale, which results in the appearance of more monochromatic ‘bands’ of color in a smooth color gradient. For instance: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._example01.png
    Bezel = A term for the plastic or metal frame/cover surrounding the actual display panel.
    VESA(Video Electronics Standards Association) = A standardization organization for many aspects of a computer display like connectors, mounting system, power consumption, quality standards, etc. Their site: www.vesa.org/

    Computer Display Resolutions:

    Key:
    Computer Display Standards = Resolution (Aspect Ratio)

    Computer Displays:
    MDA = 720x350 (72:35)
    CGA = 160x200 (4:5), 320x200 (16:10), 640x200 (16:5)
    Hercules = 720x348 (60:29)
    Professional Graphics Controller = 640x480 (4:3)
    MCGA = 320x200 (16:10), 640x480 (4:3)
    8514 = 1024x768 (4:3)
    VGA = 320x200 (16:10), 640x350 (64:35), 640x480 (4:3), 720x400 (9:5)
    SVGA = 800x600 (4:3)
    XGA = 640x480 (4:3), 1024x768 (4:3)
    QVGA = 320x240 (4:3)
    SXGA = 1280x1024 (5:4)
    UXGA = 1600x1200 (4:3)
    WUXGA = 1920x1200 (16:10)
    WXGA = 1280x720 (16:9)
    WSXGA / WXGA+ = 1440x900 (16:10)


    Television Display Resolutions:
    Note: Some TV res. are the same as some PC res.
    Also note that Im not 100% sure about the true Interlaced common resolution :P


    Key:
    Television Display Standards = Resolution (Aspect Ratio)

    Progressive Displays: (-p extension)
    VGA 640x480
    480p 720x480
    576p - PAL Plus 720x576
    720p 1280x720
    1080p 1920x1080

    Interlaced Displays: (-i extension)
    Broadcast NTSC 440x330 (Stretched to VGA)
    DV NTSC 480i ~720x350 - ~720x400
    DV-PAL-576i 720x405
    HDV & Broadcast 1080i 1440x810 (Stretched to 1080p)

    Common Aspect Ratios:

    5:4 = 640x512, 720x576, 1280x1024, 1800x1440, 2560x2048, etc.

    4:3 = 320x240, 480x360, 640x480, 800x600, 832x624, 1024x768, 1152x864, 1280x960, 1400x1050, 1600x1200, 1920x1440

    16:10 = 320x200, 1440x900, 1680x1050, 1920x1200, 2560x1600, 3840x2400, 7680x4800, etc.

    16:9 = 1280x720, 1600x900, 1920x1080, etc.



    5:4 and 4:3 aspect ratios were more common with CRT’s and the early LCD’s. As applications started migrating to a widescreen format, newer flat panels started supporting wide screen as well. HDTV’s are commonly based on a 16:9 aspect ratio, while wide screen computer monitors use 16:10 aspect ratios.

    Here is a comparison between 4:3 and 16:9 in Counter Strike: Source:

    Source: http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?t=49242

    Computer Interfaces:

    VGA

    Supposedly VGA connectors can be modified from a PC to an HDTV without having to buy an expensive VGA to Component converter. I haven’t tried it myself, but it seems plausible considering that VGA connectors are simply analog RGB output cable like Component cables. For more info, scroll down to the “Links:” section under “Info / News:”. This would be useful for setting up Home Theater boxes. If anyone has tried this successfully, PM me so I can add a subsection about the actual mod.

    Standard Cable:

    Pin Arrangement:


    DVI

    DVI can support up to UXGA, WUXGA and HDTV resolutions or a signal over 160MHz with a single cable. Higher frequencies and resolutions can be achieved with a dual set of links (Commonly seen with 30” QXGA or WQXGA displays) or multiple links if needed. Here are some more details about the DVI interface for any interested modders that want to experiment

    Standard Cable:

    Connector Types:

    Pin Arrangement:


    LCD’s vs. CRT’s

    Here are a few comparisons that may aid in your decision between LCD's and CRT's:

    Contrast Levels:
    Any decent CRT will have much better contrast levels than a high-end LCD. LED backlighting could considerably improve LCD contrast ratio in the future, but the costs of such technology at the moment is very high relative to a regular CRT monitor with similar quality.

    Delay Time:
    LCD’s have higher input lags than CRT’s, but they are both virtually unnoticeable to humans. (See Response Time below for more info.)

    Response Time:
    CRT’s are much more responsive, with response times under 1ms. LCD technology however is becoming faster as time progresses, and it is said that anything under 8ms response time would be unnoticeable to humans. Though, in professional gaming it helps to reduce the sum of delays caused by computer input and output, and human of input and output. In the case of professional gaming, considering the input lag and response times of LCD technology, a CRT user could have a slight competitive advantage compared to a LCD user. In this case, a CRT would be a wiser choice.

    Input Lag - Animated Wiki GIF Version:

    Input Lag - YouTube Video Version:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pi2OE6hSh00
    Credits to adamsleath for the find.

    Monitor Frequencies:
    Despite most LCD’s have a low frequency of 60Hz, LCD’s do not flicker because all the pixels on a LCD refresh individually. On the other hand, a CRT has to constantly refresh the entire image with 3 electron beams of colors red, green, and blue. Although CRT’s under high frequencies may not seem to flicker, for some people it causes headaches to watch a CRT for long periods of times.

    Color Depth:
    CRT’s have a wider spectrum of colors, accurately representing 32-bit color (about 4.3 billion distinct colors) and theoretically capable of representing even more. At the moment, LCD’s can at most replicate Truecolor (24-bit or 16.8 million distinct colors), which is also dampened by cases where color banding is present or where color depth has to be sacrificed to 16.2 million distinct colors in favor of response time.

    Focus & Geometry:
    LCD’s are made up of millions of small colored pixels equally distributed throughout a flat surface, so the image looks equally well on the entire screen. On the other hand, CRT’s use an electron beam that projects over a curved lens. Newer CRT’s have a refractive lens that attempts to flatten the image, but this affects the sharpness of the picture the farther you view the image from the center of the screen. Because of this, widescreen CRT’s are not as common, since the difference the sharpness between the vertical extremes would be clearly differentiable from the (less sharp) horizontal extremes. Although, uneven backlighting and backlight bleeding is also a common problem with many LCD's, which in turn translates into uneven geometry. One of the objective when looking for LCD's is to simply find reviews that show LCD's that lack these defects if geometry is a big concern, and even so one could have the bad luck of getting a LCD with uneven backlighting or backlight bleeding. In this case, make sure the LCD has a warranty that will protect you against such defects so you can RMA it latter in case it shows up.

    Sharpness & Resolution:
    A high quality LCD’s is sharper per pixel at native resolution than a high quality CRT at its optimal resolution, because of the asymmetry that exists between the lens and the tube in a CRT monitor. With CRT’s a higher resolution usually results in a less sharp picture, while with LCD’s a lower resolution seems to result in a less sharp image. LCD’s are more restricted then CRT’s in terms of resolution scaling, because the differences between a native resolution and a non-native resolution tend to be so severe that it is best to always run the LCD at its native resolution. This is an important fact to consider if you’re intending to play games, since a higher resolution would require a better system to run the game smooth at native resolution, otherwise the higher video fidelity you were planning to achieve from a larger screen would be pointless. A screen from the same size, but with a larger pixel pitch (and lower resolution) would have a higher image quality. Thus, if you can not afford to run your most played game at high resolution, I would recommend sticking with a lower resolution screen with a small pixel pitch.

    Durability:
    the only part on a LCD that ages is the backlight. LCD’s commonly have a backlight that has a half-life of about 50,000 hours, resulting simply in a lower brightness level. If the backlight dies on a LCD, it is possible to replace it through the warranty. Apart from the backlighting, there is a chance of getting dead pixels. On the other hand, CRT’s ages in two ways: an oxide layer forms on the cathode of the electron gun, decreasing beam current, while at the same time the phosphor in the electron tube also ages and becomes less efficient. Most CRT’s half-life is about 10,000 to 20,000 hours. After each half-life, CRT’s lose both brightness and image quality.

    Power consumption:
    The power required to run an average LCD is about 1/3 the power needed to run an average CRT, and even less power is needed to run other flat panels like LED LCD’s and OLED displays. Less energy consumption in turn results in less heat dissipation as well.

    Size, Portability & Ergonomics:
    In terms of size, LCD’s are much smaller then CRT’s from all angles, but more noticeably in depth. In addition to size, LCD’s are much lighter as well, thus making them much more portable, although this is not to say that large flat panel displays are not heavy, they are just less heavy then their CRT counterpart. Ergonomically, some LCD’s are also sold quite stylishly with some companies using very discrete wall-mountable bezels, while others with elaborate glass or metal bezels. Most CRT’s, as new as they may be, they always seem to resemble old CRT’s from the early 90’s with cheap plastic bezels and glass screens. LCD panels usually come in two flavors: in glass/glossy screens, or in matte screens. Glossy screens usually give a sharper and darker image than the same panel with a matte screen, but matte screens are not as reflective. For dark, closed environments the glossy screens may make more sense; otherwise I would recommend a matte screen considering how annoying the reflectiveness becomes at times.

    Marketing:
    Whenever purchasing a monitors (or anything in general), one has to be aware of the marketing tricks companies use to beautify their products. With LCD’s often companies are not accurate about their response time ratings. At times when the average is expected, they publish the minimum time they achieved. In other instances, companies don’t give enough response time information. Another common marketing strategies company’s do is to claim colors that they actually can’t produce. The common marketing scheme seems to be to focus on the weaknesses the technology lacks to make it stand out from the comp
    Last edited by Turok; 03-20-2008 at 01:53 PM.

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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by IYP
    Indeed

    If anyone thinks I should change something, please post.
    Ill keep this Thread up to date as long as a better LCD is released
    I will try to add other things latter on like:
    * Prices
    * Links with reviews
    * LCD terms that some may not know
    * News about upcoming tech and improvements
    * And other stuff...

    Enjoy your stay

    Turok
    Last edited by Turok; 08-08-2005 at 07:38 PM.

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    Nice job on the “LCD Guide” everyone that was involved, adding some links to reviews on each LCD like you mention would be very helpful, it would give the reader a more real world opinion on a particular LCD so one is able to make up his or her own mind. That way it clears up any biases that might be present.

    Under the “specs” you might want to add if they are D-Sub (15-pin) or DVI and or D-Sub (15-pin) and DVI. Also the brightness in nits and the viewing angle.

    What about adding some additional information about the different panel technologies and who developed the MVA, PMVA, SPVA, PVA, SIPS and IPS panels:
    http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles...chnologies.htm


    Here are some reviews on the ViewSonic VP201 b or s:
    http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/guides/viewsonicvp201.htm

    http://www.gamepc.com/labs/view_cont...=vp201b&page=1

    http://www.neowin.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=195753

    http://www.vnu.co.uk/personal-comput...iewsonic-vp201
    ASUS A7N8X Deluxe Rev II ~ Barton 2500 AQXEA0323 @ 2420MHZ
    2x512MB Corsair 3200LLPT BH-5 ~ BFG AGP 6800GT OC
    2x80GB Seagate SATA in RAID 0 ~ SB Live Plat 5.1 ~ Live Drive
    Princeton LCD19D ~ Enermax EG651P-VE FMA ~ Enermax EG465P-VE(D)
    DD M4 ~ M4 A ~ BIX II ~ Eheim 1260

    DFI NForce4 SLI-DR ~ Winnie 3200 CBBHD 0449 MPM @ 2700MHZ
    2x512MB G.Skill 4800LA ~ 2xBFG 8800GTX
    2x74 GB Raptors in RAID 0 ~ Audigy II ZS
    ViewSonic VP201s ~ PCP&C 510 SLI ~ Enermax EG465P-VE FMA
    DD TDX ~ 2xM4 A ~ Weapon ~ Iwaki MD20

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    I bought BOTH the 930B and the VP191b in the past 2 weeks. I have tested them both out.

    Analysis: http://forums.anandtech.com/messagev...ead=y&arctab=y
    Last edited by dmo580; 05-03-2006 at 10:46 PM.

    Intel Core i7 930 @ 4ghz | Gigabyte X58A-UD5 | 6GB G.Skill Ripjaws DDR3 | Radeon 4850 | Crucial m4 128GB SSD
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    I would ask to the crt lover no flaming here this is just a guide keep it clean
    Incoming new computer after 5 long years

    YOU want to FIGHT CANCER OR AIDS join us at WCG and help to have a better FUTURE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Necromonger
    Nice job on the “LCD Guide” everyone that was involved, adding some links to reviews on each LCD like you mention would be very helpful, it would give the reader a more real world opinion on a particular LCD so one is able to make up his or her own mind. That way it clears up any biases that might be present.
    Heya Necro. Hope things are going well with ya and thanks for the compliment

    Just want to say that I agree with you and I'll make a list of the reviews I used for the monitors I listed. However, I suggest we stick to only reviews from more established sites. Many of the VP201b reviews listed were anecdotal and not very objective. The only ones I think we should keep from the list is the GamePC one and maybe the VNU one (I will add a few more). No review can truly be 100% unbiased, but I think we invite the possibility for more bias by putting anecdotal reviews (i.e. forum reviews, comments etc.). Of all the reviewing sites out there, I think TomsHardware and BeHardware are the best ones because they review the most LCDs and perform objective tests on them. But I will still include essentially all the reviews I read from more established sites.

    What about adding some additional information about the different panel technologies and who developed the MVA, PMVA, SPVA, PVA, SIPS and IPS panels:
    http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles...chnologies.htm
    Frankly, I didn't know enough on the subject to include it. There are many panel developers out there we didn't list. The "top panel LCD manufacturer companies" aren't necessarily LG, Samsung and AU Optronics. I only wanted to include Samsung and AUO because it is well known they are competing to make the fastest panel and we had a very informative graph of their technology. Turok included LG because he thought I was being biased towards smaller panels by not including it. However, I believe LG doesn't even make panels anymore, they split from Phillips who are the panel makers. There are also Fujitsu (make TN Sony panels) and Enzo that I know of. However, until someone has more knowledge than we do, I don't think the "top panel LCD manufacturer companies" should be included above.

    Edit: All my links have been added to the guide above and therefore removed from this post.
    Last edited by Salahuddin; 08-09-2005 at 02:30 PM.

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    WOW! You (and the other guys involved in this) did a fantastic job Turok!

    Also, nice additions would be (actually, I think such extra content would make this guide pretty much perfect):

    - Information about the available connectors these days (AKA HDMI/DVI, VGA, Component, VGA, S-Video, HDCP decrypted or not, ETC.)
    - A chapter written especially for HDTV. Explanations (even very briefly) about the various HDTV resolutions (e.g. 420p, 720p, 1080i/1080p) and connectors.

    BTW, STICK!!!

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    ok i can handle that info tha you want muaddib maybe for tomorrow if today i dont have the time
    Incoming new computer after 5 long years

    YOU want to FIGHT CANCER OR AIDS join us at WCG and help to have a better FUTURE

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    I suggest the following corrections to the list:

    According to Prad.de, all the Apple Cinema Displays use LG Phillips S-IPS panels, not PVA panels:

    http://www.prad.de/en/guide/hersteller107.html

    By that token alone, the Dell 2405FPW cannot be more responsive than the Apple Cinema in gaming, since the former uses a PVA panel.

    Also, S-IPS panels should be labelled as either "LG Phillips" or "Phillips," not just "LG." I'm fairly certain LG doesn't actually make panels, but I believe the panels were intially made when their companies were combined.
    Last edited by Salahuddin; 08-09-2005 at 02:31 PM.

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    wow...Salahuddin knows how to get stuff done! lol dont forget im still here, if ya need nethin from me jus shoot me a PM

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    Quote Originally Posted by IYP
    wow...Salahuddin knows how to get stuff done! lol dont forget im still here, if ya need nethin from me jus shoot me a PM
    Thanks bro. Its my obsessive compulsive disorder kicking in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salahuddin
    Heya Necro. Hope things are going well with ya and thanks for the compliment

    Just want to say that I agree with you and I'll make a list of the reviews I used for the monitors I listed. However, I suggest we stick to only reviews from more established sites. Many of the VP201b reviews listed were anecdotal and not very objective. The only ones I think we should keep from the list is the GamePC one and maybe the VNU one (I will add a few more). No review can truly be 100% unbiased, but I think we invite the possibility for more bias by putting anecdotal reviews (i.e. forum reviews, comments etc.). Of all the reviewing sites out there, I think TomsHardware and BeHardware are the best ones because they review the most LCDs and perform objective tests on them. But I will still include essentially all the reviews I read from more established sites.
    I am doing very well, thank you, and I hope the same for you, it sounds like you had a great vacation, again, “Good job on the LCD Guide” and links to reviews.

    Salahuddin, in all do respect, who determines what is an “established site” or an “anecdotal review” or for that matter an “objective” or “subjective” review, you! In my opinion, I think all reviews and comments should be included no matter where they come from and what is said in them. I know there is no review that is 100% unbiased, but the more reviews one can read helps to better understand the product in hand. So in retrospect, I will not remove any links to reviews that I listed.

    There are many members here at this forum that think “Toms Hardware” reviews are a bunch of hot air. But I don’t have a problem seeing it on the review list, the more information one has the better one can differentiate between a good review and a bad review.

    Quote from “Zebo” at this forum:
    “Show me someone besides Toms bias testing”.
    http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...are#post959217

    Quote from the inquirer:
    “Hardware sites are also known to the companies and PR firms to be either docile axs-kissers, or, well, not. The docile ones are the ones you want to use to get a story out, especially if the story is not all that good if measured against the unvarnished facts. The docile sites are the ones that get the sneak peaks, exclusives and perks that few others tend to get. Some are too stupid to do more than reword press releases and swipe slides from PDFs, others are flat out bought. It does not take a genius to figure out which sites fall into which categories”.

    “You notice I said bought. If you have any doubts, let me tell you, the current hardware review site industry is flat out for sale. The higher up you go, the fewer exceptions to the rule there are. Some sites are directly for sale, I am sure you have seen it, it is a hard thing to miss”.
    http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=22332
    ASUS A7N8X Deluxe Rev II ~ Barton 2500 AQXEA0323 @ 2420MHZ
    2x512MB Corsair 3200LLPT BH-5 ~ BFG AGP 6800GT OC
    2x80GB Seagate SATA in RAID 0 ~ SB Live Plat 5.1 ~ Live Drive
    Princeton LCD19D ~ Enermax EG651P-VE FMA ~ Enermax EG465P-VE(D)
    DD M4 ~ M4 A ~ BIX II ~ Eheim 1260

    DFI NForce4 SLI-DR ~ Winnie 3200 CBBHD 0449 MPM @ 2700MHZ
    2x512MB G.Skill 4800LA ~ 2xBFG 8800GTX
    2x74 GB Raptors in RAID 0 ~ Audigy II ZS
    ViewSonic VP201s ~ PCP&C 510 SLI ~ Enermax EG465P-VE FMA
    DD TDX ~ 2xM4 A ~ Weapon ~ Iwaki MD20

  14. #14
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    THG @ lcd test is quite good
    Incoming new computer after 5 long years

    YOU want to FIGHT CANCER OR AIDS join us at WCG and help to have a better FUTURE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Necromonger
    I am doing very well, thank you, and I hope the same for you, it sounds like you had a great vacation, again, “Good job on the LCD Guide” and links to reviews.

    Salahuddin, in all do respect, who determines what is an “established site” or an “anecdotal review” or for that matter an “objective” or “subjective” review, you! In my opinion, I think all reviews and comments should be included no matter where they come from and what is said in them. I know there is no review that is 100% unbiased, but the more reviews one can read helps to better understand the product in hand. So in retrospect, I will not remove any links to reviews that I listed.

    There are many members here at this forum that think “Toms Hardware” reviews are a bunch of hot air. But I don’t have a problem seeing it on the review list, the more information one has the better one can differentiate between a good review and a bad review.

    Quote from “Zebo” at this forum:
    “Show me someone besides Toms bias testing”.
    http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...are#post959217

    Quote from the inquirer:
    “Hardware sites are also known to the companies and PR firms to be either docile axs-kissers, or, well, not. The docile ones are the ones you want to use to get a story out, especially if the story is not all that good if measured against the unvarnished facts. The docile sites are the ones that get the sneak peaks, exclusives and perks that few others tend to get. Some are too stupid to do more than reword press releases and swipe slides from PDFs, others are flat out bought. It does not take a genius to figure out which sites fall into which categories”.

    “You notice I said bought. If you have any doubts, let me tell you, the current hardware review site industry is flat out for sale. The higher up you go, the fewer exceptions to the rule there are. Some sites are directly for sale, I am sure you have seen it, it is a hard thing to miss”.
    http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=22332
    I though your reviews were ok, except the VNU review because it was too short and didnt offer too much details on the LCD.
    The forum review already had some links of sites you already listed, so some reviews would have to be taken off.

    Salahuddin wanted to take off the forum ones and the short review so I did, but wasnt my idea so dont flame on me pls
    We left the GamePC review, so your research didnt go to waste

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turok
    I though your reviews were ok, except the VNU review because it was too short and didnt offer too much details on the LCD.
    The forum review already had some links of sites you already listed, so some reviews would have to be taken off.

    Salahuddin wanted to take off the forum ones and the short review so I did, but wasnt my idea so dont flame on me pls
    We left the GamePC review, so your research didnt go to waste
    Turok, I hope you don’t think I was flaming you, because I am not, I think your doing a fantastic job on this “LCD Guide”. I am not flaming any one, I was talking to “Salahuddin” about facts.
    In further note, I said in “all do respect” that means I respect him, I dont understand why you would respond for him.
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  17. #17
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    I'm totally aware that Tom's Hardware is not considered a very objective site by some... but almost all of those comments are directed towards the Intel vs AMD debate and perhaps some motherboard hardware. Regardless, for LCDs Tom's Hardware provides very objective data and testing that hardly any other review sites provide (the graph of panel response for instance).

    The truth is that the guide was compiled by Turok, leviathan18, IYP, and myself... and so our biases will be inherent to it. A site that is dedicated to reviewing hardware and reviews many components is always going to be more valuable than someone going on a forum and writing a review about the monitor they bought. An anecdotal response has absolutely no standard and is the lowest form of scientific evidence available. After all the research I've done on these LCDs to try and narrow it done to the facts, I don't feel comfortable having just anybody's comment tacked onto my work. I mean, what is to stop someone like me or you writing a review on how the crappiest 25ms PVA panel is the best gaming monitor in the world and posting it up on the guide?

    Sure review sites can be very biased. But, they have at least some standard to the public they have to adhere to or else no one will invest back into them. Therefore I'm not against having biased review sites up there. There are several sites I included that I don't necessarily agree with everything they have to say, but because I know they used some standard (however biased) I included them.

    I'm a physician and I see numerous patients come asking me about this and that "herbal" medication and they bring me evidence like "it worked for so and so." The fact is, that form of evidence is useless to me because it has no scientific value. At the same time there is TONS of bias in medical research due to the influence of drug companies on research. But, I know that regardless of this bias, all research has to adhere to certain principles that I myself have to analyze so that I can choose what is best for my patient. I can read a research paper and think its full of crap, and at the same time, I can read another one and think it has a lot of good information. I base these decisions on how closely the authors follow the scientific method and what objective data they provide. Sure I might not be correct all the time, but its the best manner of approaching that which is truly unbiased (which is impossible). Including anecdotal "evidence" in this approach causes more, not less, bias. In fact, it actually clouds the the "true" evidence because people are unsure on how much weight to give each form of evidence. If doctors payed equal weight to all the anecdotal evidence that goes around to all the other research that is done, even if its biased, we may very well be prescribing Ginko Biloba to lower your cholesterol instead of medications that are known to work!

    I mean, if Tom's Hardware reviews the VP191B, puts in a colour accuracy chart, a response time graph, a thorough explanation of their testing methods, and compares it to other LCDs... how can that be weighed equally to someone that says, "I just bought the Dell 2005FPW and its the best monitor, absolutely no ghosting or anything, I play WOW on it everyday... its AWESOME!" There is absolutely no comparison between these reviews even though they both may be equally biased. Another person may come along and say, "there is so much ghosting on the 2005FPW I don't know how anyone plays games on it" and the reader ends up being totally confused on the subject.

    Now you can ask "who is qualified to weigh what evidence is allowed and what isn't?" The short answer is those who have developed the guide in the first place. After all, our own biases were already used in developing the guide and if we don't feel comfortable included certain reviews in it, I think that is quite a fair thing to do.

    And don't get me wrong. I didn't ask that your sites be removed from YOUR own post Necromonger... I meant for them to be removed from the main guide (Turok had included all of them). If you or anyone else for that matter want to post your opinions or reviews in your own posts, that is totally fine and encouraged. I only meant for them not to be all included in the guide. And, if through these posts new and/or confirmed evidence is presented, I know that Turok and the rest of us are interested in adding to and improving the guide.
    Last edited by Salahuddin; 08-09-2005 at 08:18 PM.

  18. #18
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    I will respect your thread, I’m also glad that some one like your self has the bxlls to admit that their own biases are involved in this “LCD Guide” my hats off to you.
    I am also in the medical field, so I know exactly what you’re talking about as far as the influence of drug companies on research, Doctors and hospitals, but when someone here at this forum tells someone that they think that a particular piece of hardware or what ever is good or bad I will usually believe them over a online hardware reviewer even “Toms scientific method”. Anyway, good luck in your endeavor on finding the fastest LCD. You might want to take a look into Medical Grade LCD’s.
    Maybe you can get one of the mods to turn this thread into a sticky and remove all of these non-useless posts!
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  19. #19
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    Well for the 17 inch, I would like to recommend the Samsung 172X. I am only recommending this as it is a nice LCD and has a 12ms response time.

    Btw, good job on this thread.

  20. #20
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    the 710n is better imo than the 172
    Incoming new computer after 5 long years

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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by leviathan18
    the 710n is better imo than the 172
    I agree there. Just haven't caught up lately in the LCD frenzy.

  22. #22
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    kudos for the work. Great job. I would like to vote for a sticky

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  23. #23
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    Nicely done! Very useful
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  24. #24
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    This thread should start feeling **sticky** right about now ?

    Nice job Turok, amazing job in making a guide with info on specific models.

    Perkam

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by perkam
    This thread should start feeling **sticky** right about now ?

    Nice job Turok, amazing job in making a guide with info on specific models.

    Perkam
    Thanks, I owe most of it to Salahuddin, and the rest
    Cheers

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