Horrible ati yeilds (3%!!)

[P_1]

http://www.vr-zone.com/?i=2487&s=1

[crodan85]

Thats bad and this is after they retaped it about 3 times

[freecableguy]

Mother f@#&*@(!

[[FoRcE]]

What seems to be the problem with ATI not being able to turn the chips out?

[Disposibleteen]

Wow, this is really bad, and all this time Nvidia is just basking in the sun of domination.

[charlie]

whew!!! And to think, I almost bought some ATI stock (atyt) this week... will wait til it hits 11 now.

C

[turtle]

This is kinda old news...Thought it had been posted already. There's been lots of discussion about it at B3D and R3D.

The idea is that R520 has been 16 pipes all along, and peeps that thought elsewise are no covering their bases...IE expect a similar article at the inq soon. This has also been speculated on...I don't know who released it but they've been revered to as fact for quite some time...althought noone knows what they mean:

R520: 16-1-1-1
R530: 4-1-3-2
R580: 16-1-3-1
R515: 4-1-1-1

Assumption is the first number is pipes, third number is TMU's, last is Z/stencil All should do 3 ALU's per pipe, and R530 is 50% the speed of R520...Meaning R580 could be wickid fast.

Also things to consider are that ATi has said on a couple different occassions to stop thinking about pipes in the traditional sense from here on out, including not only R500 (C1,Xenos) but also R520 and R580. If it processes 3 ALUs per pipe instead of 2, this makes the pipes 1.33x more effective, which has been something that's been rumored all along. It could also contain unified architecture ala 24 programable pipes (16pp + 8vsu)...althought unlikely. Also take on top of that G70 is still 16 rops, just 24 pixel shader pipelines. R520 is prolly 16pp(x1.3) and 16rops.

Furthermore baseline assuming regular pipes:

7800GTX (430Mhz /24p): 10.32 Gigapixel/s fill rate
X900XT:PE (700Mhz /16p): 11.2 Gigapixel/s fill rate

Don't count them out yet guys...Even if it's 16 pipes, which it may have been all along...It could still turn out faster than G70. Also remember R580 is supposed to be more than just a little refresh. There's a lot more to ATi's architecture than just the pipe number...It's such a rediculous thing to base performance on. Granted, it may suck, or if it is better than G70 the 90nm G71 may be better than it...who knows...It may even be 24/32...I havn't a clue. But the thing is we all really don't know until we see some numbers. The only thing that we have in that respect is numerous reports from independant sources of it scoring over 10,000 in 3dmark05, and that surely is better than G70. Some may say this was a part with more pipelines, I don't think so. I think it's the same product that will end up being released.

That being said...I still think this is it's launch date:
http://www.gecube.com/support-events-detail.php?id=321
http://www.sydneyshowground.com.au/i...86&SectionID=1

[Reznik Akime]

Although I am an Nvidia fan, I think that ATI is going to mop the floor with Nvidia this round performance wise. Turtle's post makes me think to how AMD and Intel are. Intel seems to focus on one thing while AMD wants to focus on the grand picture and optimize everything.

Thats what seems to be the case here. Nvidia is just focusing on small smudges while ATI is wanting to repaint the picture and I say all for it.

Just how I see things as of now.

[$a1Ty]

it doesnt matter if ATI will have a better product, if they cant produce enough of it and get it to the consumer

[Cybercat]

3 ALUs is quite a lot. The G70 has two, but then it also has a second shader unit (akin to the original NV40 architecture).

[turtle]

Latest rumor...expect this to show up on the INQ shortly!
__________________________________________________ ___
R520 ala XT:
500mhz "sample speed" (ie some vendors will clock higher)
24pipe, (was 32 but failed quads caused the cut)

R530 ala "pro"

16pipes
similar clocks

IT WILL BE SHOWN Aug 26/27 at the launch thinger in Australia.

You will not see 32 real pipes until R580 for sure.
__________________________________________________ ___

[einCe]

fanboyism is the key to ati success

[turtle]

lol...Hardly a fanboy...only to AMD.

Just trying to share which way the wind seems to be blowing, and give both sides. If G71 kicks everything's ass, good for nvidia, and even better for us.

I'll be the first to say it...Noone (besides a select few who ain't talking) really know what's going on.

[Cybercat]

500MHz? That's it?

[turtle]

That's what this dude is saying:

http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthre...post1333818229

and it's been something many diff people have been saying for QUITE some time. First they gave the same specs with 32 pipes...now it's the exact same specs cut to 24 pipes because of yield problems...and apparently RV530/rv515's will be R520's with failed quads and similar clocks. It does make sense...

[Quanticles]

Who does ATI partner their manufacturing with?

[turtle]

I don't know exactly what you're asking...

I know Sapphire makes all the pcbs, or at least they did.

[craig588]

Random thoughts: Why can't someone just make a card with 200 pipes or something really high like that and have the drivers automatically disable all of the failed piplines? Even if the yeilds are really low there should be a pretty good chance of at least 24 or however many they want to still be intact for their high end model. Also, do GPUs have cache?

[Cybercat]

lol, anymore than 32 would be murder with the limits of current technology.

[crodan85]

Who does ATI partner their manufacturing with?

It is tsmc same as nvidia use im not sure but I think Ati tape the chip and then they send it to tsmc.

[craig588]

lol, anymore than 32 would be murder with the limits of current technology.

That's why you have all of those dead pipes disabled on a driver level automatically. Just by random chance, even if more pipes are going to be destroyed, having so many of them possible would mean that at least enogh to perform competently would be left fine. Why doesn't this work? (Other than the time it takes to design a 200 pipe chip and drivers that can figure out how to stop using a pipe if it's damaged)

I have no idea how chips are made.

[alexio]

That's why you have all of those dead pipes disabled on a driver level automatically. Just by random chance, even if more pipes are going to be destroyed, having so many of them possible would mean that at least enogh to perform competently would be left fine. Why doesn't this work? (Other than the time it takes to design a 200 pipe chip and drivers that can figure out how to stop using a pipe if it's damaged)

I have no idea how chips are made.

bigger die = less chips per wafer = more expensive chips

[Cybercat]

200 pipes, even 50 pipes, would equate to a die the size of Texas (figuratively speaking of course). It would require massive amounts of power, create an insane amount of heat (even with a majority of the pipes disabled), and, like someone said before me, it would be very expensive. The raw complexity of a chip with that many pipes would be beyond the limits of current fabrication techniques. You know how many transistors that would come out to? The word impractical doesn't begin to describe the problem with such a design. Not to mention, the more pipes you try to squeeze into a chip, the higher the rate of failure will be within the chip. NVIDIA didn't try to go for any more than 24, while still using a refined and well-progressed process size (110nm), and they ended up with very good yields for their chip. ATI is trying to go for 32 pipes, on a process that hasn't even been tested as a mass production vessel, and that's precisely why they're having so many problems. They pretty much jumped-the-gun with the best they could afford, in an effort to push clockspeed and fillrates to another level and beat out NVIDIA in much the same manner as they have in the past. This ended up being a double-edged sword for them.

in short, more pipes = bad
a conservative number of pipes = good

[turtle]

What he said ^^^

R520 is supposed to be a big-ass chip...and that would follow the "It was supposed to have 32pipes rumour." G70 is smaller but it also was made to have 24 pipes. I imagine pipes require a lot of transistors and therefore a lot of space on chip.

I'm thinking this "Was 32pipe 500mhz but is now 24pipe 500mhz" thing is true, although i've been wrong in the past. I guess we'll prolly see by the end of next month, or by early September at the latest.

I was doing the calculation on fillrates though, and it looks like 24/500 would be better than 16/700 by a good chunk (12,000 as opposed to 11,200). So let's hope that's true. I know there's a lot more to it than fillrates (as I explained above possible things that could be happening) but higher ones never hurt. Also if it's 500mhz on a 90nm process, who knows, maybe it has room to overclock...although with 32pipes on-board (although 2 failed quads), they may cut down the abililty for it to overclock well. It just looks to me like it's going to be a little bit faster than G70 on paper if this is true, but again, who knows how "optimized" the pipes are in terms of ALUs, TMU's, ROPS, ect.

I also was thinking about this:

16x500 = 8,000 (rumoured "pro" part)
400x20 = 8,000 (confirmed 7800gt clock)

Makes sense kinda, doesn't it? Both will prolly be in the 600-650 area in mem (in theory) as well, although ATi's might be higher than the 550 stock Nvidia's will be. Like I said, it's all going to be about which chip/mem combo has more headroom in that sector, RV530 vs 7800gt. It looks like R520 will be a little faster than G70 no matter what, without a doubt...Just don't expect miracles. Of course, that's again just my speculation. It may be different tmw when we have a whole new set of info tmw.

[Cybercat]

Call me naive if you will, but I just expected a lot more in terms of clockspeed with this jump to 90nm low-k. You know, closer to 600 or so.