Another 19" Gaming LCD Thread

[Salahuddin]

I'm actually thinking the Samsung 193P+ is now the best 19-inch monitor out there... althought I need a some reviews to confirm it. It uses the same panel as the Viewsonic V191b.

[Theo404]

From the sites I found about the Samsung 193P+, it seems like it doesnt have 'overdrive' or any of the other technologies that make the viewsonics response time comparable to a TN film display. So how the hell could it be better?

[Salahuddin]

The Samsung 193P+ uses the same Overdrive technology. There is a Samsung 193P (without the plus) that is the same as the V191B before they updated it (i.e. with a 20ms response time). Here are some links:

http://www.hardforum.com/showthread....2&page=1&pp=20

http://www.hardforum.com/showthread....hlight=193p%2B

And here is a comparison between the Samsung TN panel and the ones these monitors use:

http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/panel_co...ms_samsung.htm

That being said, we need some official reviews/testing before anyone knows which monitor is better for sure I think.

[Theo404]

Well I pulled the trigger on wednesday, and as I type this I'm watching my words form on my drool inspiring VP191B. Its a fantastic screen, very bright (but not to bright), perfect colours, very very sharp on desktop and internet browsing, still looks pretty good at lower res (although I ran it at a lower res for all of 20 seconds), viewing angles are simply outstanding (it doesnt matter where you are you still see a great picture), not one dead pixel/subpixel, very sexy thin bezel, great ergonomics (the height adjustment is nicley sprung loaded) easy to pivot and twist, and as for gaming: Excellent. If you look VERY VERY hard whilst zooming around on CSS on a fast sever you can see a sort of slight motion blur on some walls, but like I say you have to be consentrating very very hard on trying to spot it.

I'm extremely pleased with it, so if anyone is thinking about it: BUY IT!

I really thought I might have a problem with LCDs after using nothing but CRTs my whole life, and coming from an old but high end 19" Logix, but this display is just lightyears better.

[k00lance]

in the end they are all panels made by samsung

[Turok]

Excelent
Afther a long time, I was beginning to think these LCD threads were going to die forever
Tanks for you reply Theo404

So basically a VP193B could be as good as a CRT in gaming since motion blur is hard to notice, but will look a lot better in image quality and sharpness (thats for sure)

[k00lance]

BTW.. Response time means jack.
No one has ever done it individually nor anyone tried.
It's because it is almost not possible and there is NO need to.
What you see from description is only a note from the factory.

[Theo404]

Firstly, thanks Turok, yeah, wouldnt be a good member 'less I reported on what I bought. And yeah for to all intensive purposes gaming performance should not now be a reason not to buy one of the new generation of 19" units, CRTS only beat LCDs (in a noticable way) on a very small number of colour transitions, yet they are beat by LCD in all the other departments (I'm talking about the new generation of overdriven MVA panels, because TN films have shoddy viewing angles).

Secondly, "k00lance": Your making some funny 'catagorical statements of correctness' there. Response time matters! You'd be an idiot not to realise that. Yes earlier in the LCD boom there were some misleading specs about certain units response times, but now, if you buy an 8ms TN film you can bet your ass that it will play games proper. Issues over stated response time were over things like over-rated MVA panels (a 16ms MVA panel is far worse than a 16ms TN film in terms of ghosting), but these new fast 8ms MVAs are just a fraction slower than a TN film 8ms. And your wrong, this panel is made by AU optronics, the new wave of 8ms TN films all use the same samsung panel, but not this one.

(God I LOVE writing posts on the screen, the text is like its been printed at photoquality and bluetacked to the screen )

EDIT: And as for "no one has tested or compared", have you ever been to THG?
http://graphics.tomshardware.com/dis...15/lcd-04.html

http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/panel_co...ers_choice.htm



See the "8ms GTG AUO P-MVA"? Thats my panel

[Theo404]

That chart you see there is part of the reason I bought this display, notice how the 8ms samsung which is used in the TN film 8ms 19" about at the moment, see how it spikes up at certain colour transitions? Well my panel stays under 16ms all the way through (which equates theoreticaly to smooth 60fps).

[Turok]

Impressive LCD.
Its like they achieved perfection on the refresh rate.

Anyone know if we are going to see this tech on > 20" LCDs ?

[Theo404]

I did a little googling on overdrive in larger panels but came up with nothing. But rest asured, this is the way the market is going, people arnt going to want to sacrifice colour reproduction, blackness depth and viewing angles for response time if they dont have to. After all who wants a 6bit panel that dithers up the colours as opossed to being able to actualy produce them.

I take what I said back about bluring in CSS, I just fired up UT2K4 to see what it would look like (UT2K3/4 is FAR FAR more frantic and jumpy than CSS) and I could not see a single motion blur like effect. I think it must actualy be an effect in CSS thats meant to be there that I havnt seen before due to the fact I was only using an inferior CRT.

Made up your mind about the dell yet Turok?

[Turok]

I did a little googling on overdrive in larger panels but came up with nothing. But rest asured, this is the way the market is going, people arnt going to want to sacrifice colour reproduction, blackness depth and viewing angles for response time if they dont have to. After all who wants a 6bit panel that dithers up the colours as opossed to being able to actualy produce them.

I take what I said back about bluring in CSS, I just fired up UT2K4 to see what it would look like (UT2K3/4 is FAR FAR more frantic and jumpy than CSS) and I could not see a single motion blur like effect. I think it must actualy be an effect in CSS thats meant to be there that I havnt seen before due to the fact I was only using an inferior CRT.

Made up your mind about the dell yet Turok?

I have it rounded up to either the 2005fpw or the 2405fpw.
The 2405fpw is larger and has higher contrast ratios and brightness, but the 2005fpw is a lot cheaper compared to the 2405fpw, especially afther limited coupon offers.

Right now Im trying to build up enough money to convince my parents to start a Dell financing plan for 1 year, but first they say I need enough money to back up any emergencies.
Example: If I dont get payed for a month, I should have enough money in my savings to support that month. Im also waiting for a coupon offer on the 2405fpw since Q2 is ending and Dell throws some crazy offers afther each quarter

I may have to sell some old PC parts to pay it faster
I also owe my brother $300 that I borrowed from him, wich I used to finish my WC solution

[Salahuddin]

Hey guys,

I'm back... sorry for my delay. I was on vacation, then I was assembling my brand new PC which I've had no end of problems with. Finally found out that one of my BFG 7800 GTXs in SLI was defective. So, going to RMA that out tomorrow hopefully and wait 2 months until I get it back... sigh

Anyways, I'm back with a whole newfound knowledge of LCDs screens... hehe.


Viewsonic VP191B

Theo404, glad you like the VP191B. Its easily one of the best LCDs out there.

Just to make note on the response time, however... those graphs you got were all from Tom's Hardware, and indeed it shows the response time of the 8ms AUO panel to be quite amazing across the board. And... its really no argument that the VP191B is probably the best all around LCD on the market today (well at least until someone reviews the Samsung 193P+ to compare), but the guys at BeHardware found the VP191B a little less responsive than the VX924. Perhaps most gaming occurs in less than 100 in that response curve or something.

Here is the link:
http://www.behardware.com/articles/5...tn-ips-va.html

That being said, the difference in response is rather insignficant. And since the VP191B blows away the VX924 in essentially every other category, only the hardcore gamer would choose the VX924 if price wasn't an issue.


Viewsonic VX924 - 4ms AUO Panel

For those that remember, I mentioned that early reviews suggested problems with motion display on this LCD. BeHardware has confirmed that this was just a problem with the test models, and should NOT be present in the released models. They have "re-reviewed" the new release model and have found it to be the SECOND MOST RESPONSIVE panel you can buy. So this is a great buy for gamers.

Here is the link:
http://www.behardware.com/articles/5...tn-ips-va.html


Samsung 930BF - BRAND NEW 4MS Samsung TN Panel

Well, this is also a brand new monitor and is the only other 4ms panel I know of besides the VX924. BeHardware found this to be the MOST RESPONSIVE PANEL money can buy today. However, as you will see in the comparison to the VX924 in the link above, the VX924 is better in all other aspects including picture quality and colour reproduction. Go the link reviewing the VX924 above for more info of the comparison. They have some nice screenshots.


Now, below are some notes of panels I have PERSONALLY TESTED MYSELF. Keep in mind that I'm looking for a gaming monitor, so much of what is mentioned is a matter of preference:


Viewsonic VP2000s/VP201S/VP201B - 20-inch, 16ms IPS Panel

I've already posted a more detailed review in one of my other posts on this panel here:

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...8&page=2&pp=25

However, just to add to my findings since that review... I managed to test out the monitor with a DVI cable. The colour reproduction was improved, however, the response time still remained high according to my tastes. There was no ghosting I could detect, but significant motion blurring was present. Overall this is a good monitor, but as a gamer, I'm finding it hard to justify the cash for this panel when there are others with a faster response time.


Apple Cinema Display - 20 inch

I've heard so much about these panels that I thought they were almost legendary by the time I personally used one of them. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to actually buy one of these to test them out at home... but I did go the an Apple store where I got to use it for as long as I wanted while hooked up to the Internet.

I must say that screen looks absolutely amazing. The first impression you get from seeing one is "WOW." Colour reproduction and picture clarity are as good as anything I've seen, not to mention the silver finish of the body.

The bad part, however, is that the response time is absolutely terrible. Even if you take a window and move it around the screen, you can see ghosting. In NONE of the other monitors I tested, including the VP2000s, could I see this. This is surprising since many people who game on these LCDs claim that they don't notice any blurring or ghosting whatsover?!? And just so you know I'm not making all this up, you can check out CNET's review of the monitor here:

http://reviews.cnet.com/Apple_Cinema...tml?tag=glance

In particular, they state, "Our only other criticism is one that's common for LCDs: there's a fair amount of ghosting in high-contrast test screens; the display seems to have trouble switching from black to gray and back to black..."

And keep in mind that these guys are CNET and not exactly avid gamers... so if they noticed the ghosting, then well I can't imagine it being very good for gaming at all.


BenQ FP91V+ - 19-inch, 6ms panel with Overdrive technology

Unfortunately, I didn't have a lot of time to test out this monitor as the return period was coming to an end as I came back from vacation. According to BeHardware, this panel is as responsive as the VX924... but the glossy screen makes it a little less appealing when gaming due to glare.

I personally also noticed motion blurring when using this monitor, however, it was significantly less than the VP2000s. When playing Halo, I didn't really notice the blurring at all. In fact, I could hardly tell the difference from my CRT when not looking for it. I would rate this is a very good gaming monitor, but would advise against purchasing it because of the price. The Hyundai L90D+ is significantly less and doesn't have the glare.


NEC LCD1970GX - 19-inch, 8ms Panel

I'm actually using this monitor at this very moment. I've tested it with Halo, Far Cry and the Single Player FEAR demo and I must say it has a great response time. There is still signficant motion blurring when I look for it, but I could totally see the improvement in gaming in Halo from the VP2000s. Far Cry and FEAR playing extremely well and I had no major problems gaming on this LCD.

The only problem, however, was the Opticlear coating on the panel. As with the BenQ FP91V+, NEC decided to create a highly reflective panel with a large amount of glare. If you ever see either of these two panels in the store, they certainly stand out amongst other LCDs due to this coating. The the glossy screen seem to improve colour quality and make images appear almost 3D. First time I saw it I was amazed.

However, after using it for several days now, I can honestly say that the glossy panel is more of a nuissance than a blessing. In dark games like FEAR, its sometimes hard to see things if you have any sort of light source in your room behind you (my desk faces the wall, so I can always see the ceiling light reflecting off the screen). In every game I played, I always felt like I couldn't see things as perfectly as I wanted to due to the glare. Glare has always been a minor problem on CRTs too... but the glare of these screens is a lot worse.

Oh, and I probably should mention that the glossy screen totally ruins the viewing angle. If I even stand up, the colours on the LCD1970GX all pale... its like the "true" viewing angle is less than 90 degrees! Don't expect anyone to sit beside you and watch a movie with you on this monitor.

BTW, if you check out Tom's Hardware, the NEC LCD1970GX has a very similar response curve to the Hyundai L90D+:

The NEC LCD1970GX response curve:
http://graphics.tomshardware.com/dis...review-16.html

The Hyundai L90D+ response curve:
http://graphics.tomshardware.com/dis...15/lcd-04.html


Conclusions

Again, let me reiterate that these are personal conclusions from someone looking for a GAMING monitor. Depending on your personal tastes or preferences, the right monitor for you may be totally different.

First some points:

1. Let's face it, LCDs still aren't up CRT standards in terms of ghosting and blurring of moving images. They have, however, come a long ways such that its hard to notice a signficant difference in gaming between the new fast panel LCDs and the top CRTs. The difference exists, but for many of us, the other benefits of LCDs are starting to outweigh this benefit of CRTs.

2. LCDs are still improving at a rapid pace. Just one month ago, we were talking about the fastest LCD panels being 8ms. Now we have 8ms panels with faster overall response times and better image quality, and there are two 4ms panels on the market. If you check the "Latest News" out at BeHardware.com, a PVA 6ms panel is on its way (i.e. the VP191B is an 8ms PVA panel) and Viewsonic has plans on releasing a 3ms panel very soon.

3. Also, lets face it, ALL LCDs MADE FOR GAMING TODAY are 19-inch LCDs or 17-inch LCDs. The inexpensive Dell LCDs, expensive Apple Cinema Displays, and any other 20-inch or larger LCD in between were never designed for the PC gamer in particular. These are all either VA or IPS panels rated at 16ms or slower (the 12ms Dell panel in the 2005FPW is actually a 16ms IPS panel with Overdrive technology, not a true 12ms panel). There are plans to use the VP191B 8ms AUO panel to make some fast 20-inch displays, but I'd estimate this to be at least several months down the road.

In the end, I'm personally finding it hard to shell out the extra cash for a large 20-inch or greater LCD for my 7800 GTX SLI setup. Sure I won't be able to game in widescreen or at 1600x1200 resolution... but the response time of these panels is just too high at the moment.

Not only that, its not going to take long before even a 7800 GTX SLI setup is going to be taxed at 1280x1024 resolution (i.e. the resolution of 19-inch or smaller LCD panels). If you've ever played FEAR, the maximum resolution you can set in the game is 1280x968! AND, if you run the game with all the bells and whistles turned on, it even slows down ONE 7800 GTX!!

So, if you go out and buy a huge 23-inch monitor with 1900x1200 resolution, or even a 20-inch monitor at 1600x1200 or 1680x1050 widescreen, you're going to be forced to play at lower resolutions anyways... and we all know that LCDs run the best quality at their native resolutions. So, if you're going to be lowering resolutions from a 1600x1200 screen anyways, you might as well get the faster panel at the expense of one inch of display area IMO.

Personally, I have decided to buy a fast and inexpensive 19-inch panel with the understanding that I may very well buy a new and faster panel in the near future. I don't think shelling out the money for a large LCD is a wise decision for gaming at this point in time, and therefore I'll be looking to get one of the following monitors:

Viewsonic VX924
Samsung 930BF
Hyundai L90D+

The reason I put the Hyundai L90D+ up there is because the difference between it and the 4ms panels above hasn't been shown to be that great, and unless I can get the 4ms panels within $100 or so of the L90D+, I'm not sure they are worth it. The NEC LCD1970GX that I'm using now has a response curve similar to the L90D+ and I can't really notice any difference between it and the BenQ FP91V+, which was supposedly as responsive as the VX924.

And as much as I agree that the Viewsonic VP191B (and probably the Samsung 193P+) are the two best 19-inch panels on the market today, they are also the two most expensive. The VP191B response graph above is indeed impressive, but since they don't seem to be significantly more responsive in practical use than the monitors above, I don't think I'd personally be any more satisfied with them from a gaming perspective.

The resolution issue was the only thing keeping me from buying a larger LCD monitor than 19-inch, but after gaming with 7800 GTXs in SLI, the biggest thing I want out of my monitor is it to be responsive. And it seems I'm not the only one that thinks this way... the "rig of the month" for August on www.slizone.com is a 7800 GTX SLI setup with a Viewsonic VP191B monitor:

http://www.slizone.com/object/slizon..._august05.html

So, in conclusion, I suggest getting a fast 19-inch panel for gaming. And if I had to make a top 5 list, I'd add the VP191B and Samsung 193P+ to the list:

My suggested top gaming LCDs:

1. Viewsonic VP191B
2. Samsung 193P+ (may possibly be better than the Viewsonic VP191B, but no major reviews have been done that compare these).
3. Viewsonic VX924
4. Samsung 930BF
5. Hyundai L90D+


PS. Turok... feel free to cut and paste any of this into you're guide you want. Just give me 50% of whatever you make from it J/K.

[Theo404]

Salahuddin, very indepth and thought out post

BeHardware found the VP191B a little less responsive than the VX924.

That doesnt suprise me as the VX924 is a 4ms GTG quoted panel.

I am very pleased with the VP191b, however I found today that on an open Bittorrnado client (a gray box with black text on it) if you move it back and forth across the desktop, the text flashes due to the refresh on the black to grey transition, it'd be nice for someone with one of the samsung 8ms TN panels to do the same and see what happens.

Does the Samsung 193P+ use the same panel and technology as my VP191b? I thought it used a samsung PVA panel, with their form of overdrive.

Does the comercial release VX924 have the 'tearing' problem that behardware reported?

I agree with your list, however I see the L90D+ higher, due to some problems with the VX924 and the minimal differences in percieved response time between them.

I dont think greater than 19" panels can really cut it as all-round displays yet, but soon with overdrive and other technologies which can get gaming response times out of MVA an IPS tech panels a champion 21" or larger will come.

Regardless, its nice to have another on the pulse about LCDs at this point, wish this thread was here when I first started looking at 19" panels.

[IYP]

we should make a sticky and keep updating it....should start off with Salahuddins post

[Turok]

we should make a sticky and keep updating it....should start off with Salahuddins post

Yeah, Im trying to make a LCD guide with Salahuddin
Ill see if I can implement this onfo to it

[Salahuddin]

Salahuddin, very indepth and thought out post

Why thank you very much Theo. Always nice to be appreciated . Means a lot to me.

I am very pleased with the VP191b, however I found today that on an open Bittorrnado client (a gray box with black text on it) if you move it back and forth across the desktop, the text flashes due to the refresh on the black to grey transition, it'd be nice for someone with one of the samsung 8ms TN panels to do the same and see what happens.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "flashes." I'm using a Samsung 8ms TN panel (the NEC LCD1970GX). I don't have Bittornado on this machine yet, but I tried moving this post in a window around (its gray with black text on it) and I did notice more blurring than usual if that is what you mean. Let me know what you'd like me to try in more detail and I'd be happy to test it out for you. But, I'm using Win x64 atm so I'm being VERY reluctant to install anything I'm not sure will work on it (including Bittornado lol). I've reformatted this PC too many times already from installs that halt in the middle and mess things up.

Does the Samsung 193P+ use the same panel and technology as my VP191b? I thought it used a samsung PVA panel, with their form of overdrive.

You are correct, it is a Samsung 8ms PVA panel. Its in direct competition to AUOs 8ms PVA panel.

Does the comercial release VX924 have the 'tearing' problem that behardware reported?

BeHardware claims that all the motion problems reported with their initial VX924 have been resolved in the commercial release.

I agree with your list, however I see the L90D+ higher, due to some problems with the VX924 and the minimal differences in percieved response time between them.

Personally I also agree. That is likely what I will end up buying. However, I was trying to make an objective list of what is theoretically the best gaming monitor considering all monitors worked as stated. I mean... the price to perfomance aspect of the L90D+ would place it at the top of the list if you ask me

we should make a sticky and keep updating it....should start off with Salahuddins post

Thanks mate. Your thoughts are much appreciated. Turok has been doing some work too in the background... he has a pretty good list coming together. Maybe if I can add some of my post to his list, we may have a very awesome LCD buying guide up.

[gr8golf]

I've absolutely loved my VP912b! They are still available out there for about $450 at some places. I don't know which panel is in this thing - but I can't see ANY ghosting or other issues. I followed a few threads before I bought and it was a clear cut winner. HTH

[IYP]

Yeah, Im trying to make a LCD guide with Salahuddin
Ill see if I can implement this onfo to it

be glad to help out in any way i can....you guys run any chat clients like AIM or MSN?

[Salahuddin]

be glad to help out in any way i can....you guys run any chat clients like AIM or MSN?

Er... I'm on nothing atm. Turok and I are just in contact through PMs. You should really PM him because he is the "head manager" of the project. I'm sure he will give you a job to do LOL. A real slave driver he is... geez. Just make sure you know what you're getting into

If its ok with him, I can start PMing some stuff I've put together if you wouldn't mind looking it over and giving some suggestions.

[Delirious]

Ok im about to order up a Viewsonic VP191B, it will be my first lcd so im really hoping im not goin to be let down.

[Turok]

Ok im about to order up a Viewsonic VP191B, it will be my first lcd so im really hoping im not goin to be let down.

Could you make a review on it?
Bench it until it bleeds

[Delirious]

yah, i plan to let u guys know what i think, as a person who has never used an lcd, for more than 5 min.

As soon as i get it im goin to fire up bf2 and then some photoshop.

[Theo404]

Really good idea about putting together a guide, if theres anything I can do to help i will. Any idea about benchmarks for LCDs, like a program to test basic colour reproduction and ghosting? I'd love to put together a more indepth review of my VP191b.

Delirious: Dont get put off when you first see a little blurring, it becomes un-noticable after you get used to it. Other than the little blur you get on certain transitions (black to certain shades of grey usualy) its a fantastic display. It was my first LCD after years of CRT use to, and I'd never go back now, in fact I find it difficult to use CRTs now, the blurriness and lack of focus and colour fidelity really does my head in.