6800le 'Black Screen' - The Complete Guide: Identification, modification and reason

[SikaRippa]

Sanyo SAY Model

Kondensator, Sanyo, Elko, 1500uF/10V (PE=200Stk) SAY-0002
Typ: 10MV1500WGL
8x20 mm, RM 3,5, high quality, 105 GradC

are they fine?

These, I suppose:

http://www.sanyo.com/industrial/elec...oads/mv-wg.pdf

.. and you are considering one having size of 8x20 (mm), ripple current of 1870 mA and ESR 19 mohm (?) . Electrical performance (ESR, current) could be proper ((I have not yet managed to make final specs, reason = I have to sleep & REAL work *sometimes*, bad habits I know )) but the inductance due to leads might be too high. Therefore, I myself would not test with leaded components, but the same kind of surface mounted components (=physical size) that originals.

[dandaman]

no. i got rid of it before i got the msi though.

[markiemrboo]

How about these:

http://www.rapidelectronics.co.uk/rk...1100&XPAGENO=1

Just looked a bit more, these seem better:

http://rswww.com/cgi-bin/bv/browse/M...oid=-668809231

I hear panasonic caps are supposed to be pretty good quality

[SikaRippa]

no. i got rid of it before i got the msi though.

Ok. However, noise can be very hard to heard since it is sometimes very quiet (especially when CD-player has low current consumption)

[SikaRippa]

How about these:

http://www.rapidelectronics.co.uk/rk...1100&XPAGENO=1

Just looked a bit more, these seem better:

http://rswww.com/cgi-bin/bv/browse/M...oid=-668809231

I hear panasonic caps are supposed to be pretty good quality

First one does not have all required specs and I could not open second one, you were logged to that page (?). Could you give a specific code for those caps ?
Panasonic is usually a good brand, but here are required soooooo good caps that even all capacitors from them can not meet requirements.

--

Are you still ready to measure caps ? If you are.. then I'll try to post a figure for test points in few days..

[bertos]

Originally posted by SikaRippa
- Have you 'AGP Fast Write' off or on ? (It is set usually in bios). There has been some freezing problems with some 6800-card when 'Fast Write' = on
- Is you card looking like the figures posted (which one) ? If not could you post a figure of it OR provide a link to web-page having such figure OR explain what is different comparing those cards ?
- Have you used the card for a long time ?
- Do you think that the noise is similar to those examples ?
- IMPORTANT ONE: when card hangs, is the noise high or low frequency ???

It is interesting that you have encourted quite similar freezing features than 'markiemrboo' (see posts above), it would be nice to know wheather your card has also *fixed* like 'GW version 1b'. I am just wondering IF this fix would remove BS, but makes card freeze sometimes (????).

Hi!
So, I have FastWrites turned On, cause it has a postive influence on 3D efficiency, and I tried it with FW Off as well, and these "hang ups" showed up anyway.
My card looks like this on figure 1 (it has written "Made in Taiwan") but I don't know if there may be some differences. I could post a photo, but tell my how should I do it please
I'm using this card for 7 months now!
The noise during freezes does not come from the card, only from loudspeakers. It is something like you where rapidly increasing and decreasing the volume with extremley short delays... However It looks like the card itself gives some quiet squeaks during normal work

Best regards

[markiemrboo]

First one does not have all required specs and I could not open second one, you were logged to that page (?). Could you give a specific code for those caps ?
Panasonic is usually a good brand, but here are required soooooo good caps that even all capacitors from them can not meet requirements.

--

Are you still ready to measure caps ? If you are.. then I'll try to post a figure for test points in few days..

Ah, the second link I wasn't actually logged in. Their site just overly uses sessions. The specs of those caps are as follows:

    * Low impedance ( 40 to 60 % less than FC series)

    * Miniaturisation (30 to 50% less than FC series)

    * Life time: 2000 to 5000 hours at 105 °C

technical specification
 
Temperature range  	-55 to + 105 °C 
Capacitor tolerance  	± 20% 
Leakage current  	I = 0.01 CV or 3 ( µA) whichever is greater 

technical specification
 
Volt  	Value  	tan  	Ripple  	impedance  	Dia.  	Length 
   	µF  	q  	mA  	Ω @ 100kHz  	mm  	mm 
16V  	10  	0.16  	90  	1.35  	4  	5.8 
16V  	22  	0.16  	90  	1.35  	4  	5.8 
16V  	47  	0.16  	160  	0.7  	5  	5.8 
16V  	100  	0.16  	240  	0.36  	6.3  	5.8 
16V  	220  	0.16  	300  	0.26  	8  	6.2 
16V  	470  	0.16  	600  	0.16  	8  	10.2 
25V  	10  	0.14  	90  	1.35  	4  	5.8 
25V  	47  	0.14  	240  	0.36  	6.3  	5.8 
25V  	100  	0.14  	300  	0.26  	8  	6.2 
25V  	220  	0.14  	600  	0.16  	8  	10.2 
25V  	470  	0.14  	850  	0.08  	10  	10.2 
35V  	10  	0.12  	90  	1.35  	4  	5.8 
35V  	22  	0.12  	160  	0.7  	5  	5.8 
35V  	47  	0.12  	240  	0.36  	6.3  	5.8 
35V  	100  	0.12  	600  	0.16  	8  	10.2 
35V  	220  	0.12  	600  	0.16  	8  	10.2 
50V  	10  	0.1  	85  	1.52  	5  	5.8 
50V  	22  	0.1  	165  	0.88  	6.3  	5.8 
50V  	47  	0.1  	195  	0.68  	8  	6.2 
50V  	100  	0.1  	350  	0.34  	8  	10.2 
50V  	220  	0.1  	670  	0.18  	10  	10.2 
50V  	1000  	0.1  	1610  	0.073  	16  	16.5 
100V  	47  	0.07  	500  	0.32  	12.5  	13.5 
100V  	220  	0.07  	917  	0.153  	18  	16.5

Hope that's readable enough?

Sure, I am still willing to measure things. When measuring, should I do measurements while the card is working find and while it's in a black screen state? I have an exam Monday, but then I have a couple of weeks until my next ones. So, probly won't be able to get you any results until sometime Monday/Tuesday. Is that ok?

[SikaRippa]

Ah, the second link I wasn't actually logged in. Their site just overly uses sessions. The specs of those caps are as follows:

    * Low impedance ( 40 to 60 % less than FC series)

    * Miniaturisation (30 to 50% less than FC series)

    * Life time: 2000 to 5000 hours at 105 °C

technical specification
 
Temperature range  	-55 to + 105 °C 
Capacitor tolerance  	± 20% 
Leakage current  	I = 0.01 CV or 3 ( µA) whichever is greater 

technical specification
 
Volt  	Value  	tan  	Ripple  	impedance  	Dia.  	Length 
   	µF  	q  	mA  	Ω @ 100kHz  	mm  	mm 
16V  	10  	0.16  	90  	1.35  	4  	5.8 
16V  	22  	0.16  	90  	1.35  	4  	5.8 
16V  	47  	0.16  	160  	0.7  	5  	5.8 
16V  	100  	0.16  	240  	0.36  	6.3  	5.8 
16V  	220  	0.16  	300  	0.26  	8  	6.2 
16V  	470  	0.16  	600  	0.16  	8  	10.2 
25V  	10  	0.14  	90  	1.35  	4  	5.8 
25V  	47  	0.14  	240  	0.36  	6.3  	5.8 
25V  	100  	0.14  	300  	0.26  	8  	6.2 
25V  	220  	0.14  	600  	0.16  	8  	10.2 
25V  	470  	0.14  	850  	0.08  	10  	10.2 
35V  	10  	0.12  	90  	1.35  	4  	5.8 
35V  	22  	0.12  	160  	0.7  	5  	5.8 
35V  	47  	0.12  	240  	0.36  	6.3  	5.8 
35V  	100  	0.12  	600  	0.16  	8  	10.2 
35V  	220  	0.12  	600  	0.16  	8  	10.2 
50V  	10  	0.1  	85  	1.52  	5  	5.8 
50V  	22  	0.1  	165  	0.88  	6.3  	5.8 
50V  	47  	0.1  	195  	0.68  	8  	6.2 
50V  	100  	0.1  	350  	0.34  	8  	10.2 
50V  	220  	0.1  	670  	0.18  	10  	10.2 
50V  	1000  	0.1  	1610  	0.073  	16  	16.5 
100V  	47  	0.07  	500  	0.32  	12.5  	13.5 
100V  	220  	0.07  	917  	0.153  	18  	16.5

Hope that's readable enough?

Sure, I am still willing to measure things. When measuring, should I do measurements while the card is working find and while it's in a black screen state? I have an exam Monday, but then I have a couple of weeks until my next ones. So, probly won't be able to get you any results until sometime Monday/Tuesday. Is that ok?

Thank you providing those specs ... hard to say if thay are good enough !! I am worring about too low 'Ripple' values for current.

--

I hope that I am able to refine those specs, before that I CAN NOT say which capacitors would be good replacement (IF those should be replaced at all ..)

--

DO NOT STRESS with measurements, if you can make those it is fine even take some time

((I am very busy too and maybe I have no time to finish that figure for measurements soon...))

[bertos]

S..t!!! Finally I've got it! BS, I think!
I played Splinter Cell Chaos Theory and after 30 min. I've got this "hang up" again. But few seconds later screen went black and I had no choice but to reset the system. However, the sound went back to normal (I've heard normal background from the game), monitor didn't go to suspend mode and I saw the mouse pointer, but pressing Alt+F3 or Alt+Tab was useless, I wasn't able to go back to the desktop (for the first time!)

I'm back now to stock clock settings but on 12p,6v config. I'll see if this will be better. The funny thing is (and I've forgot to mention it in the first place) that for some time (after the first OS reinstalling, when I had my GW 2100Le for about 2 months) the drivers, Riva Tuner and Power Strip are showing that for me the default frequencies are: 325/745 !!! Where normally it should be 300/700!

Please advise!

regards

[markiemrboo]

Thank you providing those specs ... hard to say if thay are good enough !! I am worring about too low 'Ripple' values for current.

--

I hope that I am able to refine those specs, before that I CAN NOT say which capacitors would be good replacement (IF those should be replaced at all ..)

--

DO NOT STRESS with measurements, if you can make those it is fine even take some time

((I am very busy too and maybe I have no time to finish that figure for measurements soon...))

I did notice the low ripple values too. I figured the caps on there would probably be about the same kind of specs though. Anyway, they're the closest things I can find to what is already on the card. Well, in the UK anyway

I'll wait for your figure and see what happens with the measurements before I go trying to swap caps around though

---

That black screen is an interesting one. The fact that you could see your mouse pointer makes it sound even more like the driver is doing something odd. What driver version are you using? What about DirectX version? DirectX 9.0C?

I've installed VNC on my machine finally, so after my exam I will force it to a black screen and see if I can still connect

[bertos]

I'm using 71.89 dirver and DirectX 9.0C (OS: WinXp HE with SP2)... All looks well, other games go OK (eg. SWAT, Brothers in Arms). But FarCry and Splinter 3 do not Maybe it is related to the Pixel Sahders 3.0 somehow ? I don't know what to think about it all. Is this only a soft problem or I am an owner of defected card too ...

[markiemrboo]

I'm using 71.89 dirver and DirectX 9.0C (OS: WinXp HE with SP2)... All looks well, other games go OK (eg. SWAT, Brothers in Arms). But FarCry and Splinter 3 do not Maybe it is related to the Pixel Sahders 3.0 somehow ? I don't know what to think about it all. Is this only a soft problem or I am an owner of defected card too ...

I don't think anyone is entirely sure why it's happening. I personally think that the black screen is some sort of driver bug. What's causing it to get to that state though seems to be related to the actual hardware, specifically the memory, on these NU/LE cards. I don't think I have heard of a GT or Ultra with the black screen problem and I can stop my black screens and pausing by lowering my memory overclock.

Is your problem reproducable? Will it always black screen after a certain period of time whilst playing FarCry and SC3? You could see if lowering your memory clock speeds helps to get rid of the problem. Otherwise, give the extra capacitor mod a try

[bertos]

Unfortunately I don't have so much time to spent few hours a day by the computer to check if some settings are better then another and to be sure that this is for real, but after seven months with this card I'd might say that this is rather random, however playing with lower clocks (eg. 325/745) is safer. But I'm not sure, because sometimes it happens anyway... Driver and its version has nothing to do with this (it happend from ForceWare 66.81 up to today's 71.89)...
I'm a little bit angry already, because I've spent almost 350 Euro for this card, and now, from your expirience, I see that I must to help myself alone by some modifications, cause Gainward even doesn't want to give an official statement about it !
One thing bothers me yet. Could you advise, how to be sure, that in my case the reason are faulty caps as you described ? (I must admit that I'm pretty "green" as far as all these electronical details are concerned )

[markiemrboo]

One thing bothers me yet. Could you advise, how to be sure, that in my case the reason are faulty caps as you described ? (I must admit that I'm pretty "green" as far as all these electronical details are concerned )

Me too I'm capable of soldering and bits and pieces to do some of the simpler volt mods, but that's about it!

Adding the cap hasn't helped me overclock my card any higher. It seemed to stop my pauses at the same memory clocks for a day or two, then they just came back again

It seems that other people have had success fixing the problem though, so it might be worth giving it a try. Post from earlier in the thread:

I Just wanted to say a BIG Wooping Thx you for posting this solution!!!

The TP 9/TP 10 cap mod works like a charm on my GW ver.1 6800LE card!!
My card had BS problems running 16/6@300/700. I could run it at 300/491 without BS but that kinda sucks... so this post came like Mana from the heaven's.

I bought a 1000uf/16v cap at the local tv-repair shop and went home to try it out. Doing the TP9/TP10 mod was a walk in the park, just pushed the cap into the holes and installed the card into the box again... I must say that i was a little nervous when I pushed the power-button... But no worry's man! It worked like a charm

I've been playing games that BS'ed my card for 3 days now and not a singel BS

So if you ever find yourself in Norway, send me an email and I'll

Thx again Sikarippa, good work!


Stoneheart
Last edited by stoneheart : 04-19-2005 at 09:25 AM.

[SikaRippa]

S..t!!! Finally I've got it! BS, I think!
I played Splinter Cell Chaos Theory and after 30 min. I've got this "hang up" again. But few seconds later screen went black and I had no choice but to reset the system. However, the sound went back to normal (I've heard normal background from the game), monitor didn't go to suspend mode and I saw the mouse pointer, but pressing Alt+F3 or Alt+Tab was useless, I wasn't able to go back to the desktop (for the first time!)

I'm back now to stock clock settings but on 12p,6v config. I'll see if this will be better. The funny thing is (and I've forgot to mention it in the first place) that for some time (after the first OS reinstalling, when I had my GW 2100Le for about 2 months) the drivers, Riva Tuner and Power Strip are showing that for me the default frequencies are: 325/745 !!! Where normally it should be 300/700!

Please advise!

regards

I have seen so many BS's, so I think that when you still can hear some sound or/and see a mouse pointer it is NOT BS, but something else. Also freezing is not BS but only a complete shut down. BS is hardware problem, simply because so many people (like me) has encountered it with a number of computers/software/drivers/etc - and it is allways the same.

Maybe you and markiemrboo have the same (new) different problem ??

--

Have you made a BS-test with Skiapline-demo (see instructions in first post)?
If possible DO it, beacuse GW6800le version 1 -cards USUALLY make BS with the test. I think you should have that version, because it is over half year old and has "4 3 470 6E"-caps.

--

'The faulty caps' is JUST a theory and I am (now) investiging what OTHER aspects (=components) can cause BS. Even if the theory is correct SOME/MANY capacitances having certain codes CAN meet the specifications - we have seen that e.g cards having "4 8 470 6E'-caps run very well when new, but fail after some (2,3,?) months.

--

About figure of your card.. if you think it is exactly the same as in document, maybe is not required. But if you have a better quality figure it could be inserted to document... if you have: please comment and I will send a private message for you with instructions.

[SikaRippa]

I did notice the low ripple values too. I figured the caps on there would probably be about the same kind of specs though. Anyway, they're the closest things I can find to what is already on the card. Well, in the UK anyway

I'll wait for your figure and see what happens with the measurements before I go trying to swap caps around though

---

That black screen is an interesting one. The fact that you could see your mouse pointer makes it sound even more like the driver is doing something odd. What driver version are you using? What about DirectX version? DirectX 9.0C?

I've installed VNC on my machine finally, so after my exam I will force it to a black screen and see if I can still connect

Getting GOOD quality caps (in small volumes) is a challange I have requested samples for very good caps (i.e. for free ) - we will see wheather they will send them !

--

Yes, I think is not good idea to change caps before having very good caps and final specs for them. Moreover, when we have investigated the capacitance measurement results between 'GW version 1b' and other cards - it might be possible to find out more clever modification. I am now 101 % sure that they have mofied the feedback of the swithing regulator for 'GW version 1b' (see misaligned capacitors in #1). And that modification can be answer to prevent BS even when having those green caps (c136..) !!!

[markiemrboo]

I have seen so many BS's, so I think that when you still can hear some sound or/and see a mouse pointer it is NOT BS, but something else. Also freezing is not BS but only a complete shut down. BS is hardware problem, simply because so many people (like me) has encountered it with a number of computers/software/drivers/etc - and it is allways the same.

Maybe you and markiemrboo have the same (new) different problem ??

--

Have you made a BS-test with Skiapline-demo (see instructions in first post)?
If possible DO it, beacuse GW6800le version 1 -cards USUALLY make BS with the test. I think you should have that version, because it is over half year old and has "4 3 470 6E"-caps.

--

'The faulty caps' is JUST a theory and I am (now) investiging what OTHER aspects (=components) can cause BS. Even if the theory is correct SOME/MANY capacitances having certain codes CAN meet the specifications - we have seen that e.g cards having "4 8 470 6E'-caps run very well when new, but fail after some (2,3,?) months.

--

About figure of your card.. if you think it is exactly the same as in document, maybe is not required. But if you have a better quality figure it could be inserted to document... if you have: please comment and I will send a private message for you with instructions.

Well, I don't have a mouse pointer visible. All I know is that the only way out of the black screen I have been able to find is hitting the reset button! I'm pretty sure it's the same problem? Do you have a card that you can force to a black screen? Are you able to ping that machine while it's sitting black screened?

Just had another thought. Maybe turning off monitor power savings might stop it going to a black screen? The black screen is actually my monitor going in to standby... do you have the monitor set to go to standby when idle for X minutes?

[SikaRippa]

Well, I don't have a mouse pointer visible. All I know is that the only way out of the black screen I have been able to find is hitting the reset button! I'm pretty sure it's the same problem? Do you have a card that you can force to a black screen? Are you able to ping that machine while it's sitting black screened?

Just had another thought. Maybe turning off monitor power savings might stop it going to a black screen? The black screen is actually my monitor going in to standby... do you have the monitor set to go to standby when idle for X minutes?

Still awake (In Finland it is already monday now..)

--

Yep. The mouse pointer comment was for Bertos - I think he is only one with THAT feature (?)

I do not have BS-card right now, so it can not tested. For me the BS's have not been like monitor standby. It is easy to proof: the measured voltages before and after BS in certain TP's are different and those indicates that card has been shut down. In the datasheet for the switching regulator there is mentioned that from that kind of state the only way out is having hard reset for supply voltages - which can be only obtained by switching PC OFF/ON i.e. it can not be wake up by software.

What do you think, could you measure e.g. memory voltage after BS (or during freeze)?

[markiemrboo]

lol yep! It's 11pm here. Gonna go to bed after I write this most likely

Well if your voltages are different than when it isn't black screened, I think it may well be both of us having something a little different. When mine's black screened, the extra capacitor reads 2.78v like it should do, but since my problem seems memory related that's the only voltage I measured. From your little table on page 1 it looks like TP9 and 10 should be dead in the black screen state though! The newer revision card still has a voltage on TP10, but that doesn't black screen!

I guess this must be something different that I am getting then? How very odd! Well, looks like we now have two totally different types of black screens with these cards then I guess

[dandaman]

does anybody know if the Gainward PowerPack! UL/2100 TV-DVI GF6800 128MB
Gainward 471846200-6084 has suffered from BS?

and if noit, how noisy is the fan on that?

[markiemrboo]

http://www.nvnews.net/reviews/gainwa...le/page7.shtml

Looks like there are two versions of that 'pack' thing. One with the dual fan cooler and one with a quieter reference style cooler.

[SikaRippa]

lol yep! It's 11pm here. Gonna go to bed after I write this most likely

Well if your voltages are different than when it isn't black screened, I think it may well be both of us having something a little different. When mine's black screened, the extra capacitor reads 2.78v like it should do, but since my problem seems memory related that's the only voltage I measured. From your little table on page 1 it looks like TP9 and 10 should be dead in the black screen state though! The newer revision card still has a voltage on TP10, but that doesn't black screen!

I guess this must be something different that I am getting then? How very odd! Well, looks like we now have two totally different types of black screens with these cards then I guess

I think it is quite clear if you can measure correct Vmem after BS: it is a 'different' BS.

--

By the way that 'version 1b'-card is measured has (or had I fixed it ) MANUFACTURING FAULT and therefore voltages were too high - I will post details in next update.

[SikaRippa]

http://www.nvnews.net/reviews/gainwa...le/page7.shtml

Looks like there are two versions of that 'pack' thing. One with the dual fan cooler and one with a quieter reference style cooler.

I found exactly the same figures before, but I put only the 'one fan' version to the document (Fig 6) and it seems (?) to have "4 3 470 6E" caps = might be BS-affected. Figure for the dual fan was so poor that I could not get the values for caps. This card might be quite rare since only a few figures/comments can be found..

[SikaRippa]

A version 1.6 has been posted !!!

- EASY memory voltage modification
- Comments about 'GW version 1b' -card with manufacturing fault - that was the reason WHY memory voltage values were too high level

[dandaman]

thanks, yes ive seen there are two version. im interested in the single fan one but Im afraid it might BS on me.

Anybody got that card?