This guide will be updated as long as there is question to it
Introduction
Why the need for such a guide? On several web logs there are a lot of people who upgraded their S754 platform to the new S939 with PCI Express.
This is because the FX processor is not the only CPU anymore with the S939 socket. Most of these people want high HTT speeds to overclock their processor and memory so they buy Samsung TCCD or low latency memory like Winbond BH5/UTT.
Recently G.Skill PC4400/4800 became the hottest memory on the market together with OCZ PC4800 based on Samsung TCCD. This memory requires a high HTT speed, so the system must be overclocked.
A big problem that occurs when trying to reach high HTT speed is the memory that doesn’t want to run that speed although it is rated at speeds 275 or 300MHz. This results in many errors showing up in Memtest86+ and sudden BSOD in Windows. Some people might think this is caused by faulty memory, but nothing could be more untrue.
There is another culprit here, the processor on-die memory controller. The overclocking potential of every memory controller is different, there is no doubt that there are bad and good ones. In the low- and midrange processors from AMD the quality of the controller is not always consistent, this is a problem for most of the users. This is not so much an issue if you plan to buy a high end FX processor.
The cores available of the Athlon 64 / X2 series at this moment are:
- Clawhammer 130nm
- Winchester 90nm
- Newcastle 130nm
- San-diego 90nm
- Venice 90nm
- Italy 90nm
- Paris 90nm
- Manchester 90nm (Dual core)
- Toledo 90nm (Dual core)
AMD has launched two new cores named “Venice and San Diego” (revision E3 and E4). These cores have an upgraded instruction set (SSE3) and a better memory controller which is capable of addressing four memory modules in Dual Channel. (Please read the extra section SANDIEGO tweaks)
Unfortunately the only way to find out if your CPU's memory controller is by testing it, the core revision or stepping does not tell you enough. All I can is recommend is; buy the most recent processor. This will increase the chance that you have a new memory controller.
The chance that you will have a “bad” memory controller on the Winchester core is 6 of 10. When you have a good controller, this does not mean you will reach those speeds 100% around DDR500~600. The RAM must be tuned, that’s why I've created this guide.
In this guide I will help you to get your TCCD memory running stable at your stock rating and above.
I have used the following modules for testing:
- G.Skill PC4400 1GB LE (Samsung TCCD 431) (2x512MB)
- G.Skill PC4800 1GB FR (Samsung TCCD 440) (2x512MB)
- G.Skill PC4800 512 LA (Samsung TCCD 440) (2x256MB)
If you use other TCCD based memory products like OCZ, PQI, Kingston, Corsair etc. you also can use this guide, but some results may vary from what i saw with this gskill memory.
The Goals:
best timings=performence for
2x 512MB at:
275MHz (DDR550) (CL2.5-3-3-6 1T)
300MHz (DDR600) (CL2.5-3-3-6 1T)
310Mhz (DDR620) (CL2.5-4-4-8 1T)
2x 256MB at:
320MHz (DDR640) (CL2.5-4-3-6 1T)
Clear I think
Users with a DFI nF4 Ultra/SLI motherboard would have known that this board has a very detailed memory setting menu in the BIOS. These settings are same on the DFI nF3 UT 250Gb board. If you don’t know what all those settings mean, I recommend you to read this guide first
All those settings are important to tune the memory to be able to run at DDR600 and beyond. For users who do not own a DFI nF4, they can use A64tweaker 0.5 for windows, this program allows you to change advanced memory timing related settings straight from within Windows.
The Method
To test stability, I will use a well-known program called Memtest86+. This program is implemented in the BIOS on the DFI nF4. You can download the new bios from the DFI website. When you use another board then DFI, use google to find memtest86++.
The steps below are the steps I use to find the sweetest point of the memory.
1. Test which module combination works best on your motherboard. Sometimes two modules works better if you switched them from place. Why? I don't know, but somehow modules can react different. For TCCD always use the orange banks. (2 and 4), for Winbond "voltages-freaks" use the yellow banks.
2. At what speed will TCCD show her true speed? Yes DDR600+, this is somekind of must for this memory due the looser timings (2.5-3(4)-3(4)-7(8) Test the memory on e.g. DDR600 with minimum voltage. (2.6~2.7v). If you get let say 20 to 50 errors in Memtest86+ test 5,8 you can tune the memory from there. If you get plenty of errors you have to increase the voltage or lower the clock speeds.
Use test 5 for testing the memory. This procedure will stress the memory with one patern. This test is the fastest but less error detection.
Use test 8 for more memory testing. This procedure uses a different patern then test 5 and has a better error detection, but takes longer.
You can run all the test by running the STD procedure, then the program will run all the test. The best and complete procedure in my opionion.
3. If you are done with tuning on a specific speed, try to clock further with more VDDR or signal strength (Drive/Data strength).
Or if you think it is enough you can tune that specific speed. (read the article how you can do this)
4. When you are done with testing in memtest86++, you can try booting into windows and bench from there. NOTE Memtest86++ stable does not always mean Windows stable. There are some users having this problem like unstable windows (BSOD's) while memtest86++ is just fine.
When you get this problem, you can add some vDDR trough your memory and/or increasing the drive and data strength.
In this article you have seen me writing about stable speeds. My criteria of stable are a minimum pass of 5 times in Memtest86+ test 8 without errors.
Most of the users use test 5 for stability test but I recommend test 8.
Piece of cake you might think, but this won’t be easy especially when you are trying to get high speeds stable with 1GB ram.
For guaranteed "Windows" stability always test with Prime95 (long period stressing, Memtest 3.2, RightMark Memory test) or houres of gaming. Just Memtest86++ is just not enough!
Bios Version
As you might know, DFI is a motherboard manufacturer that often releases new BIOS updates which is very great. I recommend using the latest beta bioses for the best support and performance for TCCD.
Which TCCD is the best?
A difficult question to answer is; what revision if TCCD is the best? At this moment there are five revisions: 425, 431, 437, 440, 449, 504, 507, 519 and 525. According to some users experience, newer TCCD are performing better at a higher voltage.
Test Setup
I used a competitively priced A64 Winchester CPU in test setup, rather then an overly expensive A64 FX-?? one.
- Athlon 64 3000+ (CBBHD 0448 RPMW)
- DFI nF4 Ultra-D rev. A02
- G.skill PC4400 & 4800 LE/LA
- Tagan 480Watt-U22
I had quite a bit of luck with the on-die memory controller of the A64 3000+ as it turned it runs at DDR600 speeds flawlessly.
Cooling: I can’t stress this enough; use an 80mm fan or bigger to cool down your memory as it has a very large impact on the result. At lower speeds and voltage the TCCD chips hardly get hot, but when pushing the envelope they start cooking and this will deter the overclocking potential.
2x 512MB DDR550 2.5-3-3-6 1T Dual Channel
BIOS Settings
Vddr: 2.7v
Tcl: 2.5
Trcd: 3
Tras: 6
Trp: 3
Trc: 9
Trfc: 12
Trrd: 2
Twr: 2
Twrt: 2
Trwt: 2
Tref: 3072 (200MHz 3.9us)
Twcl: 1
Bank int.: Enable
Skew control: 255 +
Drive strength: 7
Data strength: 4
Max. Async: 7ns
Read Preamble: 5ns
Idle Cycle: AUTO
Dyn. Counter: Enable
R/W Bypass: 16x
Bypass Max: 7x
32Bit Gran.: Disable
With these settings I got high performance and stability. The Tref (Refresh interval) can set to 4078 (166MHz 1.95us) for better performance.
If the settings mentioned above prove not to be stable, you can change the following:
- Max. Async. to 8ns
- Lower the refresh interval (Tref)
- Trrd to 3
- Idle Cycle at 128/256
These settings will increase stability and keep the performance at a descent level. If those settings are still unstable, there is something wrong with your memory or memory controller. You make sure your memory is not the issue; test the memory modules separately in bank 1 or 2.
When the memory works fine, then the problem must be the memory controller. You should disable the Command per Clock (CPC). If the problem is still there, you should consider lowering the speeds or, as a last resort, buy another processor.
2x 512MB DDR600 2.5-3-3-6 1T Dual Channel
BIOS Settings
Vddr: 2.7v
Tcl: 2.5
Trcd: 3
Tras: 6
Trp: 3
Trc: 9 (12)
Trfc: 14
Trrd: 2
Twr: 2
Twrt: 2
Trwt: 2
Tref: 3072 (200MHz 3.9us)
Twcl: 1
Bank int.: Enable
Skew control: 255 +
Drive strength: 7
Data strength: 2 (4)
Max. Async: 8ns
Read Preamble: 5ns
Idle Cycle: AUTO
Dyn. Counter: Enable
R/W Bypass: 16x
Bypass Max: 7x
32Bit Gran.: Disable
The settings above are set for high performance and stability. The Tref can be tuned higher to e.g. 1.95us for better performance. Tref=3072 is 200MHz 3.9us refresh interval. You can also set Trfc to 12.
When those settings are not stable, you can change the following:
- Max. Async. to 8ns
- Lower the refresh interval (Tref)
- Trrd to 3
- Twr to 3
- Trwt to 3
- Idle Cycle at 128/256
If those settings are still unstable, be careful working with a higher voltage. TCCD does not like high voltage compare to Winbond BH5. Maybe the newer revision TCCD like higher voltage but this one doesn’t. Always start with a lower voltage and increase the voltage step by step to a satisfied value. As you see I only used 2.7v. higher voltage 2.8 ~ 2.9v only gives me errors in Memtest86+!
Always try to run at CL2.5-3-3-6 1T to keep the performance at a high level. But if there is no other way to get this stable you can raise the Trcd to 4. This will decrease the bandwidth by 100-150Mb.
Test known-how’s
- Data strength 2 is the best value for stability, I recommend not increasing or decreasing it. But always test which setting is best for you.
- Drive strength 7 is the best value for stability, I recommend not increasing or decreasing it.
- Always set the bank interleave to enable when you are using two modules. This will increase the performance and stability.
2x 512MB DDR620 2.5-4-4-8 1T Dual Channel
BIOS Settings
Vddr: 2.7v
Tcl: 2.5
Trcd: 4
Tras: 8
Trp: 4
Trc: 7
Trfc: 14
Trrd: 2
Twr: 2
Twrt: 2
Trwt: 2
Tref: 3072 (200MHz 3.9us)
Twcl: 1
Bank int.: Enable
Skew control: 0 (off)
Drive strength: 7
Data strength: 2
Max. Async: 9ns
Read Preamble: 5ns
Idle Cycle: AUTO (16)
Dyn. Counter: Enable
R/W Bypass: 16x
Bypass Max: 7x
32Bit Gran.: Disable
The settings above are set for high performance and stability.
When those settings are not stable, you can change the following:
- Read Write Bypass to 8x
- Bypass Max to 4x
- Idle Cycle at 128/256
- Set DQS Skew to 128, Decrease
If those settings are still unstable, be careful working with a higher voltage. TCCD does not like high voltage compare to Winbond BH5. Maybe the newer revision TCCD like higher voltage but this one doesn’t. Always start with a lower voltage and increase the voltage step by step to a satisfied value. As you see I only used 2.7v. higher voltage 2.8 ~ 2.9v only gives me errors in Memtest86+!
Test known-how’s
- Decreasing the DQS Strobe timing gives the memory a huge stability boost, and little performance loss.
2x 256MB DDR640 2.5-4-3-6 1T Dual Channel
Unfortunately I cannot do 10 pass stable with Memtest86+ at 320MHz CL2.5-3-3-6 1T. I only get 5 pass stable. The problem is my memory, one module being not quite as good as the other.
BIOS Settings
Vddr: 2.9v
Tcl: 2.5
Trcd: 4
Tras: 6
Trp: 3
Trc: 9
Trfc: 16
Trrd: 3
Twr: 3
Twrt: 3
Trwt: 2
Tref: 3072 (200MHz 3.9us)
Twcl: 1
Bank int.: Enable
Skew control: 128+
Drive strength: 7
Data strength: 1
Max. Async: 9ns
Read Preamble: 5ns
Idle Cycle: AUTO
Dyn. Counter: Enable
R/W Bypass: 16x
Bypass Max: 7x
32Bit Gran.: Disable
The settings above are set for high stability. These settings are stable for better modules. So you have to test it by yourself. If these settings are stable with your ram, you can lower the Max. Async. to 8ns for even better performance. You also can lower the Trrd and Twr to 2.
Tref is set 3072 for stable refreshrates. For benching I recommend a faster refresh rated 1.95us.
For better stability you can set the Idle Cycle time to 128 or 256.
Increasing the Trfc by 1 also will increase some stability to your memory.
Test known-how’s
- When you use 2x256MB TCCD modules, I recommend you not to use to much signal strength.
Using 4x512MB of RAM, The Tweaks
Nowadays, 2 Gigabytes of RAM is not unpossible. It is affordable, and not a overkill anymore. Games and mostly graphics-based sofware need that much of RAM. Should you upgrade to 4x512MB RAM if you play alot of games?
The answer is YES, it really helps in shorting loading times and reduce alot of frames drops.
Using 2GB of RAM, the speed /timings of the RAM will be looser and the memorycontroller stress will be increased. Sometimes a little more Vcore is needed. Running at lower speeds like 400MHz-500MHz is not a very big problem, but running at high speeds especially with TCCD DDR550~600 is a hard goal to achieve.
The most important setting change when using 4x512MB is that the system must run 2T command rate. 1T will fail with the nowadays memorycontroller even for the Sandiego/Venice memory-controller.
Further changes are longer asynchronic latency and preamble read latency.
Here I have made some test to achieve the maximum stable speeds with 4x 512MB PC4800 DDR600 RAM. Unfortunately my controller cannot do DDR600, even with looser timings (2.5-4-4-8 2T). The maximum stable lies around 270-280MHz 2.5-3-3-7 1T and 290Mhz 2.5-4-4-8.
BIOS Settings
Vddr: 2.8v
Tcl: 2.5
Trcd: 3
Tras: 6
Trp: 3
Trc: 7
Trfc: 14
Trrd: 0
Twr: 2
Twrt: 1
Trwt: 2
Tref: 3072 (200MHz 3.9us)
Twcl: 1
Bank int.: Disable
Skew control: AUTO
Drive strength: 8
Data strength: 3
Max. Async: 11ns
Read Preamble: 8.5ns
Idle Cycle: AUTO (16)
Dyn. Counter: Enable
R/W Bypass: 16x
Bypass Max: 7x
32Bit Gran.: Disable
As you can see, the major changes are stated bold. These are required when cranking up the speeds. I can tell you, tweaking 2048M of RAM is hard.
When you don't know at what value you should set the read preamble and Max. async, just set AUTO and check A64tweaker in windows. The BIOS automatically set the right setting. Most of time enough to make it stable. This "feature" makes it easier to tweak. Let BIOS do the first step and you do derest.
Overall, the timings are slower. I know. 2T, longer latency timings. BUT, what you get is must better that is for sure!
Is more better? yes only when the software ask for it
SAN DIEGO Memory Tweaks
As now the Venice and Sandiego 90nm cores are fully available, these controllers are quiet different to the Newcastle/Clawhammer controllers.
There are changes in the bandwidth, the new cores especialy the Sandiego has a lower bandwidth then the older cores. How this happen is still unknown, soon some clear information will be released. The latency are still the same though.
I have tested a Sandiego 3700+ 1MB processor with memorymodules like PC4800 2.5-4-4-8 1T and PC4800 2.5-4-4-8 2T.
Definitely this core needs some more tweaking then a clawhammer core. My memorycontroller can be lacky but I post my experiences for those who have troubles getting their memory stable at STOCK clocks.
When you run DDR600 2.5-4-4-8 or 2.5-3-3-6 1T you can turn the Bank interleave modus to disable. This might improve the stability on some memorycontrollers.
Second, Decrease the DQS with value 128. This stabelize the Memtest86++ TEST 8 procedure which is more accurate then TEST5.
Please use TEST 8 for memory test procedures instead of TEST 5, plus the errors most of the time occures at 10% , 30% and 60-70% procedure.
Also make sure these settings are at:
- Drive strength 7
- Data strength AUTO or 2
I hope this guide will help you on your road to DDR600 speeds with your brand new S939 setup!
Kakaroto,
Thnx [M] for improving the translation work!
Very Handy Articles related to Tweaking TCCD
- What is DQS? Discuss it! ~by OPB!
updates
1 april 2005 - added new TCCD series.
12 april 2005 - small change Tref setting.
25 may 2005 - San Diego memory tweaks section added.
27 may 2005 - Add DDR620 2.5-4-4-8 1T stability guide
11 juli 2005 - Add 2048MB RAM stability guide
7 januari 2006 - some minor changes
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