New Vapochill LS...Mach 2 clone

[Jeff]

Not being a wise-guy at all but why aren't people considering the Mach1 at $490 delivered from Kit-Tronics.com. Even at the $899 that FrozenCPU.com is offering the LS for, you can almost get a 2 for 1 deal for the Mach1(and you do get a 2 for 1 deal if you compare these to the Mach2).

Again, not trying to be a jerk but I still think the Mach1 is a great deal. Do people really need to see -48.3c at the evaporator?

BTW, Kit-Tronics also sells the Mach2 for $910 delivered in North America... which after you factor in taxes for the LS, the Mach2 is actually cheaper.

[Shep]

OT:

Whooa chill texuspete, it was ment as a totaly offtopic funny remark about player0's oftopic remark just over (I didn't quote it and because of my sloow typing someone snook between). About one of those "urban legends". Which I thought would shine thru by the use of this -->

[]But since you seem full prejudice and with lesser cognitive skills than me[/] this got way out of control. Sorry to hear that it got taken the wrong way Pm me for anything further on this.

But fact is there are some comments of taking one another to court, and who copied who in this thread. It's like who came first the hen or the egg.

And chances are if you invent or build something state of the art, chances are big that someone else have been there before you.

We (modern society) like to think we invented concrete, but the romans used concrete about 2 thousand years before us. We have just improved the technique a little.

Same goes to this topic, some people have been supercooling electronics since way back, then Kryotech and Asetek came along adapting the technique for consumer usage. Then Nventive came along and improved on some parts of the technique and now we have race between the only two existing in this field. Which hopefully will give us (consumers) gradual improvements in this field for some time to come.

And Nventive should have something on the steps, because the coming of something like the LS was inevitable. It had to come if Asetek were to continue selling phase change.

As for their likeness (mach's and ls) I see some good in it (not the lian li look but size, bolting holes etc.), this could be the beginning of an emerging standard for how commercial phasechange units should be made. I for one don't like buying a new case every time I feel like swapping to the competing brand.

As of now Asetek, atleast on paper, seem to have the edge. Somewhere down the road Nventive might take it back. Or someone else if some other actors step in the market.

To the two only bad parts in this:

The way Asetek went about borrowing design ideas from baker18 (not the round part they've done that for years but the internals), is highly questionable. At least ethichly. I don't know the details but I got the impression that he was never asked in advance.

Edit: And since bakers design is considered to be very good by the respected figures in the phasechange forum. This seems a good deal for us consumers. Unfortunatly it's a less of a good deal for baker.

The other was how they went about getting Nventive to adjust their "overly streched/false (pick one from personal preferences)" claims about cooling abilities. There is no doubt they had to do that from a marketing point of view. Since atleast on paper the ls would be the colder compared to mach2. That could have been handled alot smoother, the way it got done, in my view, was amaturelike and stoopidish.

Sorry about this and my earlier OT'ness.

[Phyrox]

Jeff I talked to kit-tronics.com and their going to carry the LS too. They are going to sell the LS for $850~870 shipped to the U.S. as well so it will be a bit cheaper.

Well I dont actually think im going to get one anymore. If my mach2 does not sell im keeping it and will mod it to r507 and replace the fans. However if it does sell im in luck.

Spent a lot of time talking to captain cascade i guess you know what that means...

going to get a single evap custom system that will do -40C load. Of course this will KILL the mach2, LS, mach1, xe, pe, se, ect.

What do you guys think?

[Jeff]

Hey Phyrox, did you happen to talk to Greer? He's a freakin' trip. You can tell he knows his stuff and has been in the business a while. Extremely nice guy in my book!

[Phyrox]

Yup Greer is the only guy I talk to there. We talk for like 2hours easy and dont even realize it! Yes he does know alot..Has a technical background and hes been to denmark a few times to watch the nventiv manafactuing process Really knows alot. He seems to be a nventiv fanboy though Also he doesnt buy that our phasechange experts know much more than the in house engineers of asetek and nventiv...His arguement was that the CEO of asetek used to work for kyrotech...Hes a great guy though and I enjoy talking to him. Also he gives me hints on NDA stuff

[Phyrox]

Sux that they took bakers design without asking...All they did was give him one LS. One ls is not enough...5 wouldnt be enough and I bet bakers pride was hurt too!

[chilly1]

,,,

[TheDude]

Actually, I think it was pretty decent that they did give Baker an LS. They could have easily gotten away with not giving him anything. There is probably a reason for trying to keep him happy that we don't know about.

Chilly, hell I don't even remember what the topic is anymore?

[chilly1]

Did they take bakers Idea? I would like to see inside the block of the LS. I have patents on everything I have posted and provisionals on all my ideas. And I copywrite my drawings...

[Minnyboy]

Originally posted by chilly1
Did they take bakers Idea? I would like to see inside the block of the LS. I have patents on everything I have posted and provisionals on all my ideas. And I copywrite my drawings...

Originally posted by Support2/asetek
Sorry guys, but this was thought out before the very beginning of Xtremesystems Of course we look in various forums - Xtremesystems is one of them. We see a lot of advice from customers and others, and if we find them useful, we of course adopt them to improve our quality and performance. If these ideas is intelectual property of others, we of course respect that.

Our new evaporator design is a hybrid between different ideas, and one of the designs we got inspired from was Bakers. We acknowledge that, and he will get a VapoChill LS for free at his doorstep. It's not a copy of his design, as we improved it, but we would like to credit him for his ideas.

3. Since the first entrance of Lian Li cases on the market, people have been building in their VapoChill unit. Furthermore the original idea of building a compressor into a Lian Li styled box under the PC was done by a case modder from Holland, for a system for CeBIT. When nVENTIV saw that, they "adopted" his idea. So there is really nothing new into this either.

Took this straight off Vapo forums for anyone/everyone here who hasn't read it have a quick gig at it.

Seems to me they took baker18's design.

BTW, what's baker18 got to say about this?? Or did I miss something in these 11 or so pages...

[texuspete00]

Shep -> Thanks for the apology but this makes me want to explain a little something:

Originally posted by Shep
OT:
[]But since you seem full prejudice and with lesser cognitive skills than me[/]

But when I said :

"I had to comment on this. The sorry state your cognitive systems are in... It's rediculous."

I was trying to make a point, all I did was change your own wording to reflect negatively on you, using your own quote:

"Sorry couldn't help commenting on this:.... The coffee spilling- and lady/dog/microwave- and other similar cases tells more about the sorry state the US legal systems is in. Those cases are ridiulous."

Know what I mean? I didnt mean anything negative. Just a point. I dont really use words like cognitive but I had to fit in something before systems having something to do with intelligence... lol.. Thanks for setting this right with me. Like I said a similar thing happenned recently and I was on my last nerve. Peace, love, and drunkeness





So no more OT, i'm satisfied. We should be able to work it out. If the mods had gotten to it we may still hate each other. They cant predict the morale of the peoples so I dont blame them, but I do hope these post stay as the way things 'can' go. This is OT, turned useful. I'm passionate BUT ALSO reasonable. At the end of the day OUR flags wave strong.

oh yeah... and who wants to sell some custom vapor solutions?

H-2-hoe- just isnt cutting it?

[wijdeveld]

Since the Asetek forum keeps referring me to here, I've subscribed
I've done a little of the research for Asetek (mainly on waterblocks, but I’ve also taken a look at the evaporation process). Could somebody (Bowman?) PM me what the exact dispute is about regarding the new evaporation head design of Asetek?

[phobos]

Ah...hello wijdeveld

[Autobahn]

I found the link to Tom Versteeg's actual Lian Li Design which nventive were inspired by

http://home.wanadoo.nl/a.p.versteeg/...ometeia-Li.htm

The guy now works for Epox i think.

Do you guys know what asetek mean by "mass-produced" ?

[cpulloverclock]

I've the new cpu Kit for Socket 478, 754, 939 and 940

[TheDude]

Originally posted by wijdeveld
Since the Asetek forum keeps referring me to here, I've subscribed
I've done a little of the research for Asetek (mainly on waterblocks, but I’ve also taken a look at the evaporation process). Could somebody (Bowman?) PM me what the exact dispute is about regarding the new evaporation head design of Asetek?

Welcome to Xtreme!

I don't think Bowman is the one to answer this for you as he has not made any comments publicly about this that I have seen.
I think you will have to ask individual people who post about this.

I think the comments come from the fact that the two blocks seem to be very similar in design and function, combined with the fact that 2 members who posted to this forum under the names Zubzero and builderbob were traced back to originate from behind aseteks firewall. Builderbob was known to ask very technical R&D type questions of our leading experts here.

I know that asetek has had a round shaped 360 rotating design off and on several times during their different models, but asetek admitted on their own forum to using and "improving" on ideas gleaned from this forum. They are sending Baker a new LS machine because of this and I think thats a decent thing for asetek to do.

I'm not sure I would call this a "dispute".

[Nico]

I suppose this makes sense out of the Nventiv temp drama's. Asetek wanted to clear the air as the MachII still incorrectly beat there forth coming unit on paper.

The LS looks like a nice unit :thumbsup: and as has been mentioned, it is really baseing the unit on a practical setup where not much varation is possible. Not many liked the old Vapo cases and had been asking for years for stand alone units or factory fitted Lian li cases as an option, so they have only catered for the demand. All vapos since the socket classic have had 360 degree rotating heads so I don't see anything new there.

I find it really amusing how people complain and cry cheat when someone delivers on what they have been asking for. I really look forward to Bowman's comparison and new offerings in general.

[wijdeveld]

Originally posted by TheDude
... I'm not sure I would call this a "dispute".

That's a relieve
I won't turn it into one but I can't refrain from one 'thought blurb'.
I know there are some real experts in here, so I won't bother with going into too much detail about the basics (you can do a check-up if you want: http://www.home.zonnet.nl/wijdeveld/cooling/part1.pdf )

As you all know, evaporation takes time. In a very simple scenario the evaporation takes place directly at the end of the capillar (after the pressure drop):

[wijdeveld]

So, in an ideal scenario, residence time inside the evaporator chamber isn't important.

But now Asetek improves on the design and uses a bigger (220V) compressor and better suction line, meaning the residence time decreases and the amount of molecules inside the chamber also decreases (faster sucked away). This will decrease the vapor temperature readout on your display (always a nice gimmick ) but will decrease your heat adsorption capacity (and C/W ratio).

So, Asetek had to do something to increase the flow length. We've discussed the use of small fins with different inlet points (keeping the same flow):

[Tom Holck]

Originally posted by QuadDamage
LOL shoulda said "cooling" unit.

LOL, what does 65 kg airmail from Denmark to you cost?

(Its the COOLING-unit not me, I am at 92 kg)

[wijdeveld]

The fins didn't help much.

Since the goal is to increase the system friction (and therefore the molecule density) at the point were it most counts, the next logical step seems to be to use some kind of labyrinth design.

This way you increase the residence time, giving the liquid enough time to 'adept'; to the lower pressure and extract the evaporation energy from the copper chamber surface (and therefore CPU) and also increase the molecule count at the place it is most beneficial (increasing the total heat capacity of the vapor phase).

So, I don't know Bowman's design, but it seems logical to me Asetek had to improve on the chamber design (as discusses a year ago in the Vapochill forum).

I hope this clarify things a bit. I hope we can stop heating things up and start freezing again

[phobos]

I hope this clarify things a bit. I hope we can stop heating things up and start freezing again

[TheDude]

wijdeveld,

Nice posts and charts too. Actually it's Baker's design, but he did have a lot of input from Bowman as I understand it.
I hope you decide to stick around and continue to contribute to the forum.
You seem to be someone who can make his point in a mature, logical way without becoming overly excited and emotional.

[chilly1]

Originally posted by wijdeveld
So, in an ideal scenario, residence time inside the evaporator chamber isn't important.

But now Asetek improves on the design and uses a bigger (220V) compressor and better suction line, meaning the residence time decreases and the amount of molecules inside the chamber also decreases (faster sucked away). This will decrease the vapor temperature readout on your display (always a nice gimmick ) but will decrease your heat adsorption capacity (and C/W ratio).

So, Asetek had to do something to increase the flow length. We've discussed the use of small fins with different inlet points (keeping the same flow):

I looked through your logic and it appears that you try to treat a vapor as somthing different in your calculations other than a Fluid (which it is) If you import your capillary models from soil psysics the two phase multi fluidic model flow would better serve you in those calculations, I didn't and data on the heat conductivity from the die based on either fin cross section or surface area?
As stated a maze design (Invented in the 1890's for ice production) is always a better option. I also noticed that the TD on the copper blocks were skewed for lower temperatures there appears to be better thermal transport at lower temperatures while the silver has better at higher temperatures? Were your values merly a calculated model or an actual psysical model?

[wijdeveld]

Hi chilly1,

I've listed the model assumptions at the end of the article (chapter 6). Basically, I've translated the heat production of the die to a chemical system component (named 'heat') which travels as a conservative tracer through a soil system (the copper core) toward a liquid (being the real world vapor). I've translated the evaporation energy to a colder initial injection temperature and the heat capacity of the vapor was used instead of that of a liquid. By variation of the porosity of the 'solid' phase based on the heat capacity of copper, aluminum and silver, the different heat transport capacities for these metals were taken into account.

Much was done on assumption and calibration based on my Vapochill PE measurements since the model I used is developed for chemical pollutant transport in groundwater. It served it's purpose for evaluating differences in temperature in the CPU die with different cold plate materials, but it is limited with regard to incorporating capillary effects and reaction kinetics for evaporation (normally the model is run for 10.000 years, now for 10 seconds )

Afterwards, the model has been applied with much more detail to the Waterchill block, for which it is much more suited.