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Thread: [News] Microsoft Locks System Updates for Windows 7, 8.1 on Ryzen, Kaby Lake Systems

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky View Post
    XP was good yes, but better than Vista/7? From a purely technical perspective, no. From a personal preference perspective, well sure that's fine, though I disagree. A couple things I may have preferred about it, but over all it can't hold a candle to 7. And 10, again, 7 is better in some things yes, but Win 10 I have yet to find anything that makes me want 7 over it.

    "Corporate apologist" - Give me a break. Just because someone happens to like something from a company that you happen to dislike doesn't mean they are blind or make that person some sort of shill
    Its beating a dead horse, there are technical reasons why Xp was better and why it was worse, however most things that made xp worse were pretty weasily fixable, and vista line (that includes 7) no.For example the sound system which regressed pc audio capabilities for years.But as i said, its dead already and have been discussed to the death.
    As for "corporate apologist" , well, it refers to people that praise the product blindly not taking into the account all the bad things it brings to the table, and also you dont have a problem calling people genuinely disliking undoubtedly worse OS in some regards, as a "goons" , it goes both ways.
    Win 10 had and still has MANY flawes, and whats worse, many of them are by design.And what it gives ? For great many people. Nothing.
    I dont care about 5s quicker boot.I dont care about dx12.I dont want UWP or ms store.I want an os, 7 gives me that without of all the hassle making w10 work, besides w10 seems to be in constant state of beta, with endless updates that fix some things, and brake another.But yea, call me a goon because i dont want something that doesnt give me anything good, but has crapload of problems .
    And dont get me wrong, if MS would clean up win 10, added features i like and removed i dont like, they would have my money.But its not going to happen, because i want control, and they dont want to give it to users, because win 10 is not an os, its a service with ads and a way to push more product.Anyhow, win 7/8 have still many years in them for most people, probably up to 5 with absolutely no problem.
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  2. #27
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    Funny how I see no ads in Win10. Where are these supposed ads I keep hearing accusations about? The only thing close that I've ever seen was a "recommended app" in the start menu, which was a simple setting turned off in the settings - not even buried - and that was it. Never been an ad since. Yes, it has some preloaded junk when first installed that I find a nuisance to have to remove, but once removed I don't see it anymore, so, meh. They aren't bombarding me with stuff.

    I am not praising Win10 blindly. Where have I ever done that? Never. So stop labeling me something I'm not, just because I happen to disagree with you. Yes, I said "goons" but it was a tongue in cheek comment, I guess I shouldn't have assumed that the "lol" at the end would be clear enough it was a joke Yes there are some things that MS has done with win10 that I find irritating (forced lock screen is annoying on some device types for example), but show me an OS that doesn't have some sort of irritant somewhere in it. They don't exist

    But personally, I don't find win10 a hassle or full of problems anymore. I've found it pretty smooth sailing overall at this point. I deal with Win10 on a daily basis in a corporate environment.

    You do have an option to get an OS that does exactly what you want - program it yourself. Start with a Linux distro perhaps. Wanting any company - small or large - to cater their software to do exactly what you personally want is asking a bit much. They make software for millions of people to use, and nobody can be expected to cater to the whims of every single individual user. This isn't being "corporate apologist" this is simply being reasonable.
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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky View Post
    Funny how I see no ads in Win10. Where are these supposed ads I keep hearing accusations about? The only thing close that I've ever seen was a "recommended app" in the start menu, which was a simple setting turned off in the settings - not even buried - and that was it. Never been an ad since. Yes, it has some preloaded junk when first installed that I find a nuisance to have to remove, but once removed I don't see it anymore, so, meh. They aren't bombarding me with stuff.

    I am not praising Win10 blindly. Where have I ever done that? Never. So stop labeling me something I'm not, just because I happen to disagree with you. Yes, I said "goons" but it was a tongue in cheek comment, I guess I shouldn't have assumed that the "lol" at the end would be clear enough it was a joke Yes there are some things that MS has done with win10 that I find irritating (forced lock screen is annoying on some device types for example), but show me an OS that doesn't have some sort of irritant somewhere in it. They don't exist

    But personally, I don't find win10 a hassle or full of problems anymore. I've found it pretty smooth sailing overall at this point. I deal with Win10 on a daily basis in a corporate environment.

    You do have an option to get an OS that does exactly what you want - program it yourself. Start with a Linux distro perhaps. Wanting any company - small or large - to cater their software to do exactly what you personally want is asking a bit much. They make software for millions of people to use, and nobody can be expected to cater to the whims of every single individual user. This isn't being "corporate apologist" this is simply being reasonable.
    Well, you obviously dont care about all the telemetry/UWP pushing/ads (the fact that you didnt see them, doesnt mean they dont exist, ms didnt deny this, also the "get edge its faster" and other bs). And thats fine for you.
    If you "jump" on people pointing out many flaws of w10, and discrediting ("i dont see any ads") , and labeling people "goons" etc, you seem like a person that follows something blindly.
    I mean you are not alone, i always find it weird people like to force other people to do as they did, for no apparent reason , downplaying flawes etc.
    And the last part, hahaha, yes of course i , a consumer , should not point out the flaws in almost monopolistic product , i should program my own os! Yes! Thats the best solution .
    Wanting a company to cater to their clients needs isnt something weird, im not only one, if you would sit down even a standard joe sixpack , and explained to them all the things ms does how and why, even they would agree that its not for them, but for MS.
    And what a way to downplay millions of people. if not hundreds of millions , that didnt went the win 10 way even when it was free.
    People had to actively defend themselves from the "upgrade". Yet, you try to make it like I and few other paranoid loonies are holding out.
    One thing of note, im pretty sure win10 for corporate enviroments, aint the same thing what people get on their home pc`s.That may be one thing why it was overall a nice thing for you.
    Thing i dont understand is, if someone has no need to instal win10, why always someone finds the need to tell them that they need win10 and that its okay, and its fine .
    Concluding, "just laying there" attitude is way worse than complaining and voicing your opinion.Because then no change will be made for the better.But if enough people complain, we get better products, solutions, policies. Just look at xbox one.Even ms can be broken somewhat.
    As for linux, ,i was using it, and i plan on using it more.But we cant kid ourselves, linux isnt windows alternative, its a server os unnecessarily complicated for home use.
    Of course as time flies, linux starts to be much more usable than it was, so it is possible win 8.1 will be my last os from ms.
    This whole discussion is pointless. MS trying to block updates on win 7 with ryzen/kaby is just a douchebag move trying people to force to go win10, and i think anybody understands that.
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  4. #29
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    I didn't jump on anyone. You did. I made a simple tongue in cheek comment and you attacked me calling me a corporate apologist, and I'm not. I have no problem with people pointing out problems. I'm not trying to force people to do as I do. Or whatever else you're accusing me of.

    But sure, I'm the aggressive or angry one who is passively laying there... or something
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    "Some of you sound like the old "XP for life!" goons lol "
    "Its cool to hate on ms"

    Poor old ms attacked by those crazy goons that like to be cool by attacking this selfless corporate being
    You attacked at least two groups of people with no real arguments even , just "goons" "haters".
    Then defended ms again.
    And i rebutted(dont know if its proper use) .Attaching an "lol" to an attack doesnt change anything.
    Also theres difference if you laugh AT someone or WITH someone
    I dont think you were agressive , you just started this exchange.
    And about passively lying there, it was in reference to just accepting what corporations do, instead of voicing ones opinions on the matter.
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  6. #31
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    Whatever. I'm tired of being labeled falsely, words put in my mouth (since when did I ever say "selfless corporate being" - NEVER), and attacked over it. We're done here
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    Quote Originally Posted by vario View Post
    And dont get me wrong, if MS would clean up win 10, added features i like and removed i dont like, they would have my money.
    3 words: Windows 10 LTSB. it doesn't have any of the crap addons installed.

    I think you might have misunderstood Sparky's comment about the "XP" goons. I was the same goon about windows XP and 7, but finally installed LTSB and couldn't be happier.


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    I want xp because I want to run 3dmark2001. Really I missed it.


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    Quote Originally Posted by JAWS View Post
    3 words: Windows 10 LTSB. it doesn't have any of the crap addons installed.

    I think you might have misunderstood Sparky's comment about the "XP" goons. I was the same goon about windows XP and 7, but finally installed LTSB and couldn't be happier.
    Thats actually interesting, it seems better in many regards, not ideal for sure, but better. Thing is microsoft doesnt want people to have it :P .But i can at least try it out for 90 days.Probably gonna do that with the next LTSB release.Thx.
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    Hmm I can get an Windows 7 Pro license for 10-20€. Windows 10 Pro for 20-50€. The Windows 10 LTSB can be bought as an volume license 350€ and i also need four dummy licenses (10€ each) to get the minimum of five licenses. So in the end i have to pay 20-40 times more for an slim Windows 10 without apps and cortana and with an option to disable telemetry. I run an test system with windows 10 here. Had made an modified install image without apps and cloud functions. With Version 1511 it suddenly failed installing monthly updates after an day of research i narrowed it down to an intel gfx driver whom i had installed with intels drivers and the update failed because it included updated drivers whom relied on the drivers comming with windows 10. The was finally fixed with the update to 1607 but that one brought back a few apps and the cloud functionality also it disabled security settings and silently uninstalled classic shell. One has to put allot of effort into windows 10 to make it ready for production or pay ~10-20 times more for the LTSB version.

    Here's the Microsft page causing all the fuzz https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/...-processor-tha. The ryzen platform is not listed here, kaby lake and bristol ridge both include an gfx engin. Can be ms plans to include gfx drivers in future updates which will cause the updates to fail on unsupported platforms, similar to my issue with w10 1511 and the intel gfx driver.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by justapost View Post
    Hmm I can get an Windows 7 Pro license for 10-20?. Windows 10 Pro for 20-50?. The Windows 10 LTSB can be bought as an volume license 350? and i also need four dummy licenses (10? each) to get the minimum of five licenses. So in the end i have to pay 20-40 times more for an slim Windows 10 without apps and cortana and with an option to disable telemetry. I run an test system with windows 10 here. Had made an modified install image without apps and cloud functions. With Version 1511 it suddenly failed installing monthly updates after an day of research i narrowed it down to an intel gfx driver whom i had installed with intels drivers and the update failed because it included updated drivers whom relied on the drivers comming with windows 10. The was finally fixed with the update to 1607 but that one brought back a few apps and the cloud functionality also it disabled security settings and silently uninstalled classic shell. One has to put allot of effort into windows 10 to make it ready for production or pay ~10-20 times more for the LTSB version.

    Here's the Microsft page causing all the fuzz https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/...-processor-tha. The ryzen platform is not listed here, kaby lake and bristol ridge both include an gfx engin. Can be ms plans to include gfx drivers in future updates which will cause the updates to fail on unsupported platforms, similar to my issue with w10 1511 and the intel gfx driver.
    Yea, LTSB isnt really for "people", im gonna test it for 90 days probably sometime in the future.
    But the support article which you linked shows how ms "feels" about new systems with old os's
    "Updates stop working because you are using a cpu that isnt supported, it isnt supportted because its supported by our newest and shiniest! windows 10! - How to solve this issue ? - Just install windows 10 stupid! But we will make it MUCH harder for you to get a windows 10 version you would actually want! Its THAT SIMPLE!"

    And people wonder why there is such a big backlash on ms for windows 10.
    I still dont get how ms can flat out refuse updates to people who bough boxed win 8.1 ,im not sure its gonna be legal in every region.
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    Yeah, any and all software vendors should support all hardware for all versions of their software in perpetuity......

    I used to think that "entitlement mentality" was a purely stupid term, but I'm beginning to see that it has its uses.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattiasNYC View Post
    Yeah, any and all software vendors should support all hardware for all versions of their software in perpetuity......

    I used to think that "entitlement mentality" was a purely stupid term, but I'm beginning to see that it has its uses.....
    You seem to not grasp the situation.
    Its not about supporting specific hardware. but about disabling SOFTWARE support when specific hardware is being used.
    And yeah about perpetuity thing, windows 8/8.1 is in full support mode still.
    Ms doesnt have to do more work, its just being petty.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vario View Post
    You seem to not grasp the situation.
    Its not about supporting specific hardware. but about disabling SOFTWARE support when specific hardware is being used.
    That's exactly what I meant. I can see how the wording I used could imply that MS should support hardware when I meant support software on a specific hardware. But part of the problem here is that a lot of people who love to whine about MS don't care in the least about how they use language themselves, so I sort of figure "who cares if I'm not 100% exact in how I use language?". Know what I mean?

    Quote Originally Posted by vario View Post
    And yeah about perpetuity thing, windows 8/8.1 is in full support mode still.
    Win 8/8.1 isn't the same as Win 7 and isn't as old.

    Quote Originally Posted by vario View Post
    Ms doesnt have to do more work, its just being petty.
    Yes, trying to make a profit in a capitalist society is being petty.

    Like I said: If MS 'allowed' but didn't support Win 7 on new CPUs people would whine about MS not supporting the software under that hardware configuration if it didn't work properly. So in addition to wisely shifting their business model before it's too late they avoid having to support new and old software on old software.

    I actually also just realized that I'm wondering if this has anything to do with the widespread use of non-legit Win 7 copies. Meaning that the grace period for the free upgrade from 7 to 10 is done, so if someone now feels 10 is mature enough but is currently running 7 then they might be upset that they can't move to 10 'for free'. But that might just be me being 'negative-Nancy'.

    Either way; Windows 7 has been out for like a decade (and I think it stopped being sold in October 2014), and I think we can still buy great CPUs for it, CPUs that are still officially 'supported'. So we still have several perfectly reasonable options:

    - Keep one's old Win 7 and run very good CPUs, just not the ones listed.
    - Keep one's old Win 7 and run very good CPUs, just without updating.
    - Get Windows 10.

    Seems reasonable to me.

    As a content creator I have zero complaints about this aspect of Windows. I've been able to move back and forth between Win 7 / 8 /10 with the software I use. That's possible because MS doesn't mess around too much with the OS between upgrades. People on the Mac side of the isle can't even get close to that. If they're running for example a recent version of Pro Tools (for audio) it requires a recent version of OSX. The compatibility is and has for years and years been a very finicky issue. Not so with Windows. MS could have done far, far worse.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattiasNYC View Post
    That's exactly what I meant. I can see how the wording I used could imply that MS should support hardware when I meant support software on a specific hardware. But part of the problem here is that a lot of people who love to whine about MS don't care in the least about how they use language themselves, so I sort of figure "who cares if I'm not 100% exact in how I use language?". Know what I mean?



    Win 8/8.1 isn't the same as Win 7 and isn't as old.



    Yes, trying to make a profit in a capitalist society is being petty.

    Like I said: If MS 'allowed' but didn't support Win 7 on new CPUs people would whine about MS not supporting the software under that hardware configuration if it didn't work properly. So in addition to wisely shifting their business model before it's too late they avoid having to support new and old software on old software.

    I actually also just realized that I'm wondering if this has anything to do with the widespread use of non-legit Win 7 copies. Meaning that the grace period for the free upgrade from 7 to 10 is done, so if someone now feels 10 is mature enough but is currently running 7 then they might be upset that they can't move to 10 'for free'. But that might just be me being 'negative-Nancy'.

    Either way; Windows 7 has been out for like a decade (and I think it stopped being sold in October 2014), and I think we can still buy great CPUs for it, CPUs that are still officially 'supported'. So we still have several perfectly reasonable options:

    - Keep one's old Win 7 and run very good CPUs, just not the ones listed.
    - Keep one's old Win 7 and run very good CPUs, just without updating.
    - Get Windows 10.

    Seems reasonable to me.

    As a content creator I have zero complaints about this aspect of Windows. I've been able to move back and forth between Win 7 / 8 /10 with the software I use. That's possible because MS doesn't mess around too much with the OS between upgrades. People on the Mac side of the isle can't even get close to that. If they're running for example a recent version of Pro Tools (for audio) it requires a recent version of OSX. The compatibility is and has for years and years been a very finicky issue. Not so with Windows. MS could have done far, far worse.
    I guess theres no point in repeating too much.
    So i would just reiterate the fact, that as you pointed out ,win 8.1 isnt as old.Its still supported.
    But ms disabled updates there too.
    Thats also fair in your view ?

    As for profit, if ms would allow me to buy in dx12 and extended support for win 7, or just made a version of win 10 for normal people, i would buy it.So its not really JUST about getting money for your work.Its using your rather monopolistic stance to get everything you want, and thats not exactly capitalistic, but the problem with capitalism is, theres a point where some things become too big to be purely capitalistic, because real competition is not really viable. But thats another discussion.

    As for win 7 to 10 migration, i honestly dont know what it has to do with the updates problem. I dont see any connection besides the fact that ms wants you to install w10.Anyone with win 7 could activate win 10 before ( i did ) but many people after trying 10 , just went back (like me) .I dont think it has anything to do with not being able to downgrade to 10.

    Your whole post, revolves around the fact that w7 is old and ms has every right to not support it with updates.
    1. W8/8.1 isnt as old.It has FULL support,yet, still disabling.
    2. W7 still is on support to 2020 ,not full.
    3. MS disables updates on 7/8/8.1 not some specific ones that has to do with drivers/cpu`s, but ALL of them, for no other reason than to be a douche.Just because they can, not because they have to.
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    Xtremely High Voltage Sparky's Avatar
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    Win7 is on extended support until 2020, which means critical security updates only. No new features, support, etc. No one should expect them to do any support for any new hardware past the mainstream support end date.

    Windows 8.1 mainstream support is until January 2018, so that one does make less sense (which I've already stated before).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky View Post
    Win7 is on extended support until 2020, which means critical security updates only. No new features, support, etc. No one should expect them to do any support for any new hardware past the mainstream support end date.

    Windows 8.1 mainstream support is until January 2018, so that one does make less sense (which I've already stated before).
    You are right, but its not about supporting new hardware or new features. Its about disabling those security updates for no reason.Nobody is talking about adding new features like dx12 or new instructions, or making new drivers, or adjusting scheduler towards new architectures .
    Its about disabling windows update for normal day to day extended support things like net framework fixes, security vulnerabilities defender antivirus bases, all the things, that have nothing to do with the cpu used.Im not a loon proposing ms should add new features because i would like them to.
    For example, just installing w7 can be somewhat complicated on newer systems, i dont think ms has any obligation to make it easier.
    However with win 8.1 which i have a boxed copy of they should be a lot more helpful with.
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    Would something like the WSUS Offline Updater pretty much make this mute? Wouldn't it grab all the updates that MS won't if you have a Ryzen system???
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