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Thread: [around the net] Intel vs Ryzen

  1. #26
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    Intel Plays Dirty Over Ryzen, Attempts to Manipulate Ryzen Reviews?
    Intel is rattled with AMD Ryzen. Its 10-year old Nehalem CPU architecture that has been shrunk and incrementally updated over the years, is finally coming across as dated in the wake of AMD's "Zen" architecture. What to do when a competitor with 1/50th your R&D budget threatens to wreck your next annual appraisal? Play dirty and arm-twist the media of course! And playing dirty Intel is, according to a TweakTown report.

    Apparently, Intel has scrambled its PR department to call in favors with the press in return for "guidelines" on how to review AMD Ryzen. Intel's PR emails allegedly ask reviewers to "call us before you write." The guidelines are worded more to make it sound like Intel wants its chips to be reviewed "fairly" against Ryzen, but the underlying objective is clear.

  2. #27
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    I can hardly blame Intel and don't feel they are acting terribly. This is Capitalism and I don't see anything wrong with "loyal customer incentives" to stay with a particular brand. Its not strong arm tactics; you still have a choice. If they started threatening customers that would be another story but incentives are hardly out of line. I've never been a big fan of Intel's or Nvidia's business practices; I blame their pricing strategies for killing off a lot of the PC market but that is about to bite Intel (and hopefully Nvidia) in the butt. In the end you reap what you sow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ket View Post
    lol some of the silly, desperate remarks I've heard coming from the intel side are laughable. Best one is that core count doesn't matter as much as raw performance. Erm.. sorry intel, while that was true some 5 years or more ago moving with the times strongly indicates you need at least a Hex core now, even a Octa isn't considered overkill any more. Games based on the latest engines also show that there is a marked improvement when moving from a 4c/4t or 4c/8t CPU to something with 6 cores, while 8 cores are "nice to haves" with small gains over 6 core CPUs. About time software started catching up with the hardware, just need more software that can use multiple cores effectively now.

    Bottom line: More cores = better now intel. Raw core speed isn't everything anymore. You had your chance to continue to innovate and progress technology by releasing Hex and Octa CPUs, you didn't. Instead you stuck your thumbs up your arses and did nothing. I for one, am glad AMD is about to rudely slap you off of that high horse.
    I completely agree with intel on this statement. Raw performance absolutely beats core count IMO. And when an overclocked 8 core Ryzen {allegedly} beats a 10 core i7, I think Intel might want to re-think that particular argument
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  3. #28
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    Today, raw speed does not count for everything, especially with software that can utilise more than 4 cores/threads, which is probably about 60% of software now at least. So I'll put it to you this way; would you want a CPU (lets go with something common) with 4 cores and 4 threads clocked at 4.5GHz running software designed to use more than those 4 cores/threads, essentially bottlenecking the software, or 6/8 cores with 12/16 threads at lets say 4GHz running that software? Obviously, the extra cores/threads will do what needs to be done in a faster time with any software that can effectively use more than just 4cores/threads. In the case of games, you are going to be much less prone to FPS spikes on a CPU with 6 cores and 12 threads compared to a CPU with 4 cores and 4 or 8 threads which will lead to a smoother more responsive experience, even if absolute maximum performance isn't quite as high.
    Last edited by Ket; 02-27-2017 at 07:44 AM.

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  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by zanzabar View Post
    remember BD and amd saying each thread was a core when each module was. that line goes back to that.
    Which is outdated on intels behalf, as I also went on to say. 5 years is plenty long enough for software to catch up and surpass what was at the time quite common 4 cores and 4 thread CPUs and software done just that... around 2 years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by alpha0ne View Post
    Dream on...................I think the thought of ethical/legal business practices and intel in the same sentence = oxymoron
    I hold people accountable to higher standards and expect them to learn from their mistakes (even ones that seem obvious not to make in the first instance). If they do not, I will be the first to slam them for it.

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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlanK3r View Post
    Agree, I heard, engineers want not named as 8 core, but marketing is sometimes (always ) stronger...
    Thats exactly what happened. Well sort of. Marketing heard 8 threads ran with it. It was to late to backpedal afterwards.
    Last edited by chew*; 02-27-2017 at 07:52 AM.
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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by chew* View Post
    Thats exactly what happened. Well sort of. Marketing heard 8 threads ran with it. It was to late to backpedal afterwards.
    I think most engineers in general try to be as truthful as possible with their product's capabilities. We realize that someone downstream's going to be really unhappy if their product doesn't live up to hype.

    Having said that, they also fell into a hole of where their chip was so bloated that it ended up being similar to higher core chips in power consumption and physical size. Even if it was just a quadmodule CPU, it may as well have been an octocore from a production cost perspective.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hans de Vries View Post

    JF-AMD posting: IPC increases!!!!!!! How many times did I tell you!!!

    terrace215 post: IPC decreases, The more I post the more it decreases.
    terrace215 post: IPC decreases, The more I post the more it decreases.
    terrace215 post: IPC decreases, The more I post the more it decreases.
    .....}
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  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ket View Post
    Today, raw speed does not count for everything, especially with software that can utilise more than 4 cores/threads, which is probably about 60% of software now at least. So I'll put it to you this way; would you want a CPU (lets go with something common) with 4 cores and 4 threads clocked at 4.5GHz running software designed to use more than those 4 cores/threads, essentially bottlenecking the software, or 6/8 cores with 12/16 threads at lets say 4GHz running that software? Obviously, the extra cores/threads will do what needs to be done in a faster time with any software that can effectively use more than just 4cores/threads. In the case of games, you are going to be much less prone to FPS spikes on a CPU with 6 cores and 12 threads compared to a CPU with 4 cores and 4 or 8 threads which will lead to a smoother more responsive experience, even if absolute maximum performance isn't quite as high.
    I think you missed my point and misunderstood Intel's oversimplified statement. "Overall performance" is extremely generalized here. I just find ironic is that AMD's 8 core, 16 thread processor outperforms (raw performance) Intel's 10 core, 20 thread processor (allegedly when overclocked). Intel is correct; core and thread count isn't the end all be all when selecting a processor.
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    The irony here is that the 1.25 Billion Intel paid AMD to settle all outstanding legal disputes between the two companies, was probably for a big part used for Ryzen R&D. (payments in 2009/2010, development started 2012)
    Intel brought us Ryzen, by breaking antitrust laws! Of course AMD would have had the money themselves if Intel didn't sabotage their revenues like they did.

    If Intel breaks the law again, in some years AMD will receive another cash influx to R&D their next generation. The winner being all consumers. Yay.

  9. #34
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    Intel and the x86 Architecture: A Legal Perspective
    With the review embargo of AMD's new Ryzen CPU supposedly lifting in the next few days, rumors, leaks and official marketing is suggesting it is going to be a huge leap forward for AMD, potentially even outperforming Intel's offerings. Many of us PC enthusiasts and consumers have been overjoyed with this news, either because we have warm fuzzy memories of overclocking AMD CPU's during the K7 vs. Netburst era, or because we welcome seeing the return of real competition to the x86 CPU market, which has seemingly stagnated for lack of it over the last decade.

    It has also given many of us reason for pause, as we remember all too well what happened the last time AMD had a superior product. Intel resorted to any number of underhanded exclusionary closed doors business tactics, offering OEM's and other major customers large discounts in exchange for locking out the competition. Let's also not forget how they intentionally sabotaged AMD's performance on binaries compiled using their high performance in house compiler. Of course, Intel wound up paying dearly for these improprieties with record billion+ dollar fines from both the FTC and the European Commission, as well as a similarly large settlement with AMD, but by then the damage was already done, condemning AMD to more than a decade of mediocrity.

    With this in mind, it is not a surprise that many are very concerned that this, or a variation of it, might happen again. In this environment of hyper-vigilance, several reports of alleged new Intel improprieties have surfaced. We are not in a position to judge the accuracy of these reports or determine the legality of the alleged behaviors, but it does warrant a walk down memory lane, looking at how Intel has navigated the legal landscape throughout its history.

    In 2011 the late Greg Tang wrote a comprehensive article in the Harvard Journal of Law and Technology (JOLT) detailing the history of Intel and its aggressive and often questionable legal tactics to stifle competition, dating back to the early years of the x86 architecture in the early 1980's. I think most of us are aware of the legal history of Intel in the last 20 years or so, but it was certainly an eye-opener to me, that similar behaviors date back to the very beginning of the x86 era of computing. I highly recommend the article, as it certainly is an interesting read. The original has unfortunately since dropped off the Harvard Jolt page, but it is still available in the Internet Archive. (an archival version is still live on Jolts page, but the formatting is horrible, making it difficult to read.)

    So, could this happen again? I certainly hope not. As Intel, I certainly wouldn't want to go before a judge again, and defend against accusations of the same improprieties they already promised to not repeat, as part of their fine settlements, but I feel it will take all of us in the community to keep the attention on this topic, so that being fined for behaviors like these doesn't just become a 3+ billion dollar cost of doing business in order to kill the competition.

  10. #35
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    That puts things in perspective; I'm begining to see the context behind this thread. It came off as an intel bashing thread but I can see where the concern comes from.
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  11. #36
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    as much as i like amd and we all need them to come out in front here for the sake of competition at the very least dont for get that everyone uses dirty tricks including amd

    when bulldozer came out they were specifying games and settings to test with to make sure they were gpu bottleneck so that it looked like they were keeping up with intel when in fact they were ~30% behind
    hopefully they dont need to do that this time around
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  12. #37
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    I believe AMD is better-positioned in the marketplace to fight back against any revival of the old Intel payola schemes. That does not mean Chipzilla will not use any anti-competitive schemes or market-(t)heft against AMD, nor that AMD can successfully fight back against any/all of them.

    Alliances with TSMC (plus Samsung?) and GloFo offer significant potential to increase wafer-starts to combat the old 'channel' arguments, and shirley execs have braced themselves, and at least considered, the possibilities of shenanigans. That's why they are in charge ...

    I wouldn't, however, count on a tremendous amount of anti-trust support from 'Jefferson Beauregard.'

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlanK3r View Post
    AMD Ryzen and Intel




    *** Removed by Buckeye ***


    Hey Flanker, can you provide a source for the second statement? I'm interested in the development of that statement

    edit: found it: https://www.pcgamesn.com/amd/amd-fea...wrapper-136657
    Last edited by Aleki; 02-27-2017 at 03:48 PM.
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    You have to love this line....

    All of Intel's products and technologies are designed and developed with the customer in mind. Ah ok, so they were going to price cut their cpu's anyway........yeah right!

    Anyone remember the retail price of the AMD FX-51?


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    Quote Originally Posted by JAWS View Post
    You have to love this line....

    All of Intel's products and technologies are designed and developed with the customer in mind. Ah ok, so they were going to price cut their cpu's anyway........yeah right!
    Dont you just love marketing..................and to think they actually pay ppl to write this sh*t
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAWS View Post
    All of Intel's products and technologies are designed and developed with the customer in mind. Ah ok, so they were going to price cut their cpu's anyway........yeah right!
    What a load of bull...Intel takes away all the features it doesn't want you to have...like ECC support for nearly all consumer chips, HT (for quite a few models), dual CPU capability for all unlocked chips and vPro and TXT for unlocked chips. Even though it would cost them absolutely nothing to include these features even if they were only on the higher end chips like the Extreme Edition. Their product lineup is so overly segmented it's ridiculous. Even on their best processors, they lock them down to restrict performance potential.

    Customer in mind....yeah right....
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