[News] New Intel and AMD chips will only support Windows 10 [Update: SMT & Power]

[StyM]

http://www.fudzilla.com/news/process...ort-windows-10

Buried in the announcement of the new Kaby Lake (seventh-generation) processors and a rash of incoming notebooks set to use them is the confirmation that it will have a Windows 10 future.

To be fair, Microsoft has been warning people for ages that Kaby Lake will not run on anything older than Windows 10, but Vole is also warning punters that AMD's incoming Zen chip will be going the same way.

Microsoft said that as new silicon generations are introduced, they need the latest Windows platform for support. This will allow Microsoft to focus on deep integration between Windows and the silicon, while maintaining maximum reliability and compatibility with previous generations of platform and silicon.

What is interesting, however, is that Microsoft has secured some agreement with all the main chip makers to follow this line.

AMD said its CPU roadmap was "fully aligned with Microsoft's software strategy", and Intel clarified: "No, Intel will not be updating Win 7/8 drivers for 7th Gen Intel Core [Kaby Lake] per Microsoft's support policy change."

So the days of you using Windows 7 or 8 and being able to run a cutting edge PC are over. It looks like Vole has made great diplomatic efforts to avoid a reprise of the Windows XP debacle.

SMT and Power Management Behind "Kaby Lake" and "ZEN" Windows 10 Restrictions

Microsoft recently sparked a stir when it was reported that the company will support upcoming CPU architectures by Intel and AMD only on Windows 10, with the keyword being "support" and not "compatibility." This means that Microsoft will offer customer-support and likely serve updates to Intel "Kaby Lake" and AMD "ZEN" machines only running Windows 10 (and its enterprise variant Windows Server 2016, based on the NT 10 kernel), and not older versions of Windows. The processors themselves are compatible with any x86 operating system, Windows or *nix, 32-bit or 64-bit. HotHardware dug out the likely causes of this decision.

Apparently, new power-management and SMT features are behind the decision. With its "Kaby Lake" microarchitecture, Intel is introducing a new power-management feature called Speed Shift Technology. This lets the processor adjust its clock-speed to match processing loads at response time of 15 ms. This likely requires OS-level hooks, so the on-die power-management components can poll for processing loads and accordingly raise or lower clock-speeds 66.66 times each second, at no CPU cost. In its ZEN microarchitecture reveal, AMD too spoke about fine-grained, multi-domain clock-gating (≠ power-gating) on its "ZEN" based processors, such as "Summit Ridge."

[Sparky]

Officially yes, this makes sense too.

But unofficially I'm sure you could load whatever, they're still x86 CPUs. Driver support for the various parts may be lacking is the thing, but it isn't like the CPU is going to somehow reject any other OS.

I'll bet some people will get all bent out of shape over it though, calling AMD and Intel a bunch of terrible things because they don't want to put resources into driver support for a now-outdated operating system

[AliG]

^Sparky nailed it

[vario]

Officially yes, this makes sense too.

But unofficially I'm sure you could load whatever, they're still x86 CPUs. Driver support for the various parts may be lacking is the thing, but it isn't like the CPU is going to somehow reject any other OS.

I'll bet some people will get all bent out of shape over it though, calling AMD and Intel a bunch of terrible things because they don't want to put resources into driver support for a now-outdated operating system

You can hardly claim windows 7 is an outdated system, or 8.1. They are both still under ms support, they are stil being VERY widely used.Its ofcourse not just about normal users but also, government agencies, big corporations and etc.
Saying AMD or intel have to put any serious money into driver development is also preposterous.Not to say they DO support much more minute markets like linux or macosx.
What is outdated about widows 7 ? i mean were there any huge changes like between xp and vista/7 ? Nope.
DX12 ? Its just microsofts way of forcing people to get their new system ,it could work under 7/8 no problem.
Mantle does, vulkan does.And while migrating to win 10 for many people means a lot of work and problems along the way, staying on 7 is just no work at all.
Anyway, im pretty sure its just smoke and mirrors, cpus will work just fine, maybe minus a feature or two.(not any important feature) Its just a way to sale more win 10 machines using some meaningless empty phrases.

[zanzabar]

You can hardly claim windows 7 is an outdated system, or 8.1. They are both still under ms support, they are stil being VERY widely used.Its ofcourse not just about normal users but also, government agencies, big corporations and etc.
Saying AMD or intel have to put any serious money into driver development is also preposterous.Not to say they DO support much more minute markets like linux or macosx.
What is outdated about widows 7 ? i mean were there any huge changes like between xp and vista/7 ? Nope.
DX12 ? Its just microsofts way of forcing people to get their new system ,it could work under 7/8 no problem.
Mantle does, vulkan does.And while migrating to win 10 for many people means a lot of work and problems along the way, staying on 7 is just no work at all.
Anyway, im pretty sure its just smoke and mirrors, cpus will work just fine, maybe minus a feature or two.(not any important feature) Its just a way to sale more win 10 machines using some meaningless empty phrases.

windows 7 and 8 do not support the new way of thread scheduling or dynamic clock adjustment. so they could not have full support for the older OS.

[Sparky]

They are "outdated" because they aren't current, that's why.

Windows 7 is no longer in mainstream support by Microsoft, just extended support which is security updates only. Hardly the earmarks of a "current" OS. You do realize it is 7 years old now right? I'm not saying 7 is not a good operating system - it is - but, just like XP, it gets old and eventually it is time to move on.

Like I said, some people will whine and complain about it, but it is reality whether you like it or not.

[SinOfLiberty]

lol

[Greg83]

so in other words
this is 100% about those SDP drivers, with intels tablet and tv boxes, that drops power consumption to 2.5watt SDP instead of hitting the 5watt it would normally hit in low power mode and 10 watt in high power.

[kromosto]

this is all for data collection.

[vario]

They are "outdated" because they aren't current, that's why.

Windows 7 is no longer in mainstream support by Microsoft, just extended support which is security updates only. Hardly the earmarks of a "current" OS. You do realize it is 7 years old now right? I'm not saying 7 is not a good operating system - it is - but, just like XP, it gets old and eventually it is time to move on.

Like I said, some people will whine and complain about it, but it is reality whether you like it or not.

Well, i think you misinterpret the meaning of outdated and not newest/ most current.Not everything that isnt the newest thing on the block is automatically outdated.
Look at it in this way, if your favorite restaurant has a new menu, with food only served with feces, you wont necessarily will want to eat that, especially as old menu is still there and tastes good, and gives you the same sustenance it always has ."Time to move on" is when a customer sees a product that is better than the old, not just because its new.There are two types of people, the ones that just lay there and take everything new as some kind of revelation, and the ones that stick to lesser or bigger degree to their needs.There were times when everybody was telling me pc gaming is dying, that mouse+keyboard is dead ,that i have to move on with the times and buy a console, and use a pad to play dumb half assed rpgs, and then there were kickstarter, steam etc, things changed for the better.Even win10 is a result of a widespread hate for the 8.1 UI , xbox one was supposed to have kinect always on policy...So yea, "This is new, this is how its going to be now" .Is a stupid statement.
Well, the reality ATM, is, win7 is still under support(i dont need any other updates than the security ones) ,win 8.1 is under full support.Win 10 sucks.And thats the reality and no amount of whining will change that.

[justapost]

I wonder if they plan to add support for these new cpu architectures to Windows Server 2008 R2 and 2012.

[Sparky]

Well, i think you misinterpret the meaning of outdated and not newest/ most current.Not everything that isnt the newest thing on the block is automatically outdated.
Look at it in this way, if your favorite restaurant has a new menu, with food only served with feces, you wont necessarily will want to eat that, especially as old menu is still there and tastes good, and gives you the same sustenance it always has ."Time to move on" is when a customer sees a product that is better than the old, not just because its new.There are two types of people, the ones that just lay there and take everything new as some kind of revelation, and the ones that stick to lesser or bigger degree to their needs.There were times when everybody was telling me pc gaming is dying, that mouse+keyboard is dead ,that i have to move on with the times and buy a console, and use a pad to play dumb half assed rpgs, and then there were kickstarter, steam etc, things changed for the better.Even win10 is a result of a widespread hate for the 8.1 UI , xbox one was supposed to have kinect always on policy...So yea, "This is new, this is how its going to be now" .Is a stupid statement.
Well, the reality ATM, is, win7 is still under support(i dont need any other updates than the security ones) ,win 8.1 is under full support.Win 10 sucks.And thats the reality and no amount of whining will change that.

Windows 10 sucking is your opinion (and many others, yes). My opinion (and many others as well) is that it does NOT suck. Does it have its quirks? Yes. Show me an operating system that doesn't have quirks, they all do. Are there things about 7 I preferred? Yes. Are there things I prefer about 10? Yes.

Windows 10 is what Windows 8 should have been. Windows 8 was a poor attempt at making everything "touchscreen" when reality is that's not how the entire world is going to work. Windows 10 does a good job bridging that gap, with a return to a mouse and keyboard oriented input system but also a full tablet touchscreen oriented system as well.

I'm not saying just because something is newer makes it automatically better. But the biggest complaints I hear about Windows 10 is simply "It sucks" which is not a valid reason in of itself. "It spies on you" well, not really, pay attention to what it is doing and it really is not, and also think about do they even care who you are, no, why would they? "It forces updates" yes it does, but it is a result of people being stupid, not installing updates ever, then whining that Windows sucks because they got a virus or whatever via a security hole that MS patched months ago. "It is ugly" that is subjective. etc etc.

[NEOAethyr]

I still think win10 is ugly, and it's another round of gutting an os I just have no interested in.
To much work for absolutely nothing to gain, except less reliable frame times and such, ie latency.

That's besides the point though.
Win7...
It will probably work, but well enough, hard to say.
I haven't tried xp on my intel cpu, but on amd's, the turbo mode was pretty screwed up in xp while in win7 it was fine.
I had to disable turbo to get it to act right, with multiplier changes from idle to max, when on turbo mode it would screw up.

Certain power states probably won't work.
It could end up good enough though.

I don't know if win7 has avx2, oh I guess it does with sp1...

My point is, it could work well enough, if you don't use turbo, then again it may work well enough with turbo enabled.
Will it idle correctly?

If it doesn't act right, you can just set a manual vid and multiplier, no turbo, and just run it max clocks the whole time and that would work fine.
But it will waste alot of power and you'll have to ensure the heat isn't building up.

Other then that, linux kernel's get these type of updates fast.
But they tend to be incomplete, as linux generally is sometimes.

[eagle101]

sparky..........Am I glad to hear this...
so no worries w7 64 pro will keep on going on the newer cpus
just no updating for os?

[SinOfLiberty]

Lets just end this BS thread. If you want to talk about, do so when it officially becomes knows.

[Chrono Detector]

An expected move from Microsoft. Maybe Microsoft should listen to their customers and address the issues in Windows 10, instead of ignoring them and use shady tactics to force people into upgrading to it. I too am not impressed with Windows 10 and have no desire to use it anytime soon.

[Sparky]

Given that you have to buy Windows 10 to get it now (or buy a PC with it) there is even less weight to the "force" comments. When it was a free upgrade it was pushed, yes, maybe a little too much, I'll grant that, but forced? No. Windows Update was just doing what it was instructed to do. Did you have it set it to important updates only? Then it would never ask about Windows 10 upgrade. If it was set to also include recommended then yes it would go after getting the Windows 10 upgrade. I handle dozens of PCs and every one did exactly what was expected given the settings, and most I had set to important only and never upgraded to Windows 10.

[vario]

Given that you have to buy Windows 10 to get it now (or buy a PC with it) there is even less weight to the "force" comments. When it was a free upgrade it was pushed, yes, maybe a little too much, I'll grant that, but forced? No. Windows Update was just doing what it was instructed to do. Did you have it set it to important updates only? Then it would never ask about Windows 10 upgrade. If it was set to also include recommended then yes it would go after getting the Windows 10 upgrade. I handle dozens of PCs and every one did exactly what was expected given the settings, and most I had set to important only and never upgraded to Windows 10.

Youre joking right ? it all comes down to default settings and forced upgrades.
There were MANY MANy instances where people who did not changed DEFAULT settings were greeted with win 10 install.
They were downloading it on EVERY machine.Also, i had set it to only important updates and only manual install , and still i was getting annoyed with the win 10 enforcer until i just had enough with it and looked up which "updates" i had to uninstall to get rid of it.
Also when it was ending, with the win10 enforcer app you only had INSTALL option and no "F U" option, so as naturally , probably hundreds of thousands people who arent tech savy got the win 10.I know, i deal with those people, uninstallin win 10 is part of the business now.
Also, remember when they decided that clicking "X" was understood as a way of agreeing to win 10 upgrade ?
"a little to much" is just SO MUCH OF AN UNDERSTATEMENT.They were doing anything they could to force people to install ,there are even some lawsuits and goverment inquires about that mess.
I went like 5 times with the uninstalling and selecting the updates i dont want to NOT SHOW UP anymore, guess what, a week later they are again marked as important updates and automatically checked for install...Thank god its over.

[zanzabar]

Given that you have to buy Windows 10 to get it now (or buy a PC with it) there is even less weight to the "force" comments. When it was a free upgrade it was pushed, yes, maybe a little too much, I'll grant that, but forced? No. Windows Update was just doing what it was instructed to do. Did you have it set it to important updates only? Then it would never ask about Windows 10 upgrade. If it was set to also include recommended then yes it would go after getting the Windows 10 upgrade. I handle dozens of PCs and every one did exactly what was expected given the settings, and most I had set to important only and never upgraded to Windows 10.

if you want to try the windows 10 accessibility features it is still a free upgrade from 7 or 8/8.1.

[Sparky]

Youre joking right ? <snip>

No, I'm not. I find it quite amusing how somehow it is the world ending and everything is brute forced blah blah and I never, ever, out of all the dozens of systems I dealt with, ever ran into it. Weird. Not saying it can't happen, but my first hand experience is nope.

And no, include recommended isn't default - when you loaded Windows 7 you had to choose right there to either do everything, important only, or nothing at all. It asked you right at the setup of the computer how you wanted Windows Update to act. No amount of extraneous capital letters change that fact. I will certainly agree that most people just punch whatever because they have no clue.

The X did exactly what it always did - close the window. Doesn't mean agree. Doesn't mean disagree, or even cancel. Just means close the window. If a setting is set - which yes, they had it defaulted to an option - then it left that setting as it was. If people stop and read then it might make more sense what their PC is doing (or phone, or tablet, or anything for that matter). But this goes back to making things automatic now - nobody reads, nobody bothers to pay attention, nobody installs updates, but those same people are the first ones to scream bloody murder when their PC has a virus or an issue related to something that MS had patched months ago but they couldn't be bothered to read something or push the "install" button.

I can agree it could have been done perhaps a little less "pushy" in a sense, but at the same time, the PCs that I did have download the Win10 upgrade thingy at work just sat there, for 6+ months, quietly waiting for me to tell it to do something. Maybe I got lucky, but that's what I ran into.

And of course there were lawsuits. People are sue happy. Don't like something? Sue them! It's ridiculous. But whatever.

I'm just convinced that Microsoft could do everything 100% flawlessly and perfect and people would find something to whine and moan about.

Whatever. I'm running Windows 10 at home, upgraded almost all PCs at the office to Windows 10 in July, have had no issues related to Windows 10 whatsoever, nobody at work could care less because the computers work fine and several are fairly old Core 2 Duo systems. Other systems elsewhere I left on Windows 7 because they're remote over an hour away and I didn't want to mess with that from here, and they'll be getting new PCs by the time Windows 7 extended support is dropped anyway.

All of this is way off topic, so this ends here.

[vario]

http://bgr.com/2016/05/25/microsoft-...upgrade-trick/

Maybe you are not aware, as you just upgraded, but win 10 popup had few diff versions and worked in diff ways.
Also no, system was not doing what i told it, because i told it specifically that i DO NOT WANT win 10 and its win 10 app, yet it installed it time and time again.
The fact that YOU didnt have issues with it does not mean others did not had problems with it.After i upgraded my amd laptop with it (because i was curious) , the thing started bluescreening like theres no tomorrow.
Your whole post is like "well it went nice and well for me , therefore other people are whining lying and suing for no reason" .You dont have to be rocket scientist to know exactly what people dislike about win 10 and win 10 upgrade procedure.Its just there.People dont have to agree that this was/is a problem or how much big of a problem it was.But there is no denying the problems itself.

[Greg83]

thanks for the update, apparently i was right
and resulted in what i was talking about about prob laughed at 12 months ago
SMT is a api, a dymnamic link library, like 32bit in x87 now all x86 by software,
its only about that nothing else, cause everything else is hardware.

but also missing is the errata. probally intel amd wil update the erratta in win7 8 8.1 10, even vista still, since eratta corrections are nothing but .inf files in the inf folder. with no links to drivers or anything else
like ignore avx go sse2.