Microsoft DirectX 12 is DirectX 11 with Mantle Integrated say what....

[ajaidev]

"Now Mantle has been raising many an eye with its blindingly obvious advantages, advantages that only a Low Level API can provide. The DriectX API has been mostly stagnant for the past couple of years but now, forced by Mantle, they have swung into action, ushering in a new ?DirectX 12″. Now DirectX 12 has not been revealed to the mainstream yet but sources have already revealed what it is all about."

Read more: http://wccftech.com/microsoft-direct...#ixzz2wVHA6Z7J


I am ok with DX12 being DX11 with mantle my only question is will available mantle cards such as 280x also be DX12 compatible or AMD may say that only 290X, 290 and 260x are DX12 compatible since they have the new core etc.

[zalbard]

The assumption is unlikely and the logic behind it is questionable at best.

[Olivon]

Charlie still really needs subscription/ads for his crappy site ?
What an homeless !

[Lanek]

The assumption is unlikely and the logic behind it is questionable at best.

Well i agree with you... For my part, i believe DX12 PC is more something like the DirectX 11.x Xbox version ( the Xbox and PS4 DirectX version are not the same of the one you can find on Windows ( just for recall the DX version on Xbox is allready a low level API, who have allready access to low level hardware )...
Now if in the idea, both consoles use an low level API directX ... this is not Mantle ...

I dont think MS will re-invent the wheel when they have allready a version of DirectX with low level access developped for consoles.

[mutantmagnet]

Charlie still really needs subscription/ads for his crappy site ?
What an homeless !

The fact he continues to use subs over a year later says he has been more successful with this approach over relying on web advertisements like a bunch of journalism sites, that aren't Wall Street Journal, do. Still with most businesses failing in 5 years I will remain reserved about how successful he might be.

[crash5s]

Well i agree with you... For my part, i believe DX12 PC is more something like the DirectX 11.x Xbox version ( the Xbox and PS4 DirectX version are not the same of the one you can find on Windows ( just for recall the DX version on Xbox is allready a low level API, who have allready access to low level hardware )...
Now if in the idea, both consoles use an low level API directX ... this is not Mantle ...

I dont think MS will re-invent the wheel when they have allready a version of DirectX with low level access developped for consoles.

I'm pretty sure that all the reasons they don't want as low a level API on their desktop operating system as they do on their consoles still apply. They could have done that for years, but their are very good reasons for not doing it, even if it costs a good bit of performance.

[Lanek]

I'm pretty sure that all the reasons they don't want as low a level API on their desktop operating system as they do on their consoles still apply. They could have done that for years, but their are very good reasons for not doing it, even if it costs a good bit of performance.

You are completely right, one main reason was the diversity of gpu's system brand, what extension use ? does DX need to allow specific low level extensions from one vendor, not the other and vice versa ?.. But some years ago, well before Mantle, whatever it is AMD or Nvidia or even Intel, they have find a way to push developpers to use their own specific "features ", "extension", codes, method... not at the API level, but directly in the game engine .. ( whatever it was for favor their own architecture or diminish the return in performance of their competitor ). I tend to believe, today the problem is absolutely not the same as it was in the early 2000...

[Iconyu]

Feature wise DX11 is pretty strong, the only place left for it to really go was taking the Mantle benefits and adding them on. When people were dreaming of their perfect DX12 it was all pie in the sky stuff, the GPU's were as programmable as they were going to get, it was always the API itself that was in the way as it leaned too hard on the CPU.

[Tao~]

Its hard to believe that Mantle influenced DX12 - I think it takes more than 6 months to come up with an API. Mantle may have rushed Microsoft to an announcement earlier than planned, however.

While I am happy that finally we will get a unified low-level API, Microsoft's less than elegant rollout schemes are worrisome - DX12 will need atleast Windows 8.1 , and I don't think it will be the same as Xbox1 API, so further fragmentation for devs

[Lanek]

Its hard to believe that Mantle influenced DX12 - I think it takes more than 6 months to come up with an API. Mantle may have rushed Microsoft to an announcement earlier than planned, however.

While I am happy that finally we will get a unified low-level API, Microsoft's less than elegant rollout schemes are worrisome - DX12 will need atleast Windows 8.1 , and I don't think it will be the same as Xbox1 API, so further fragmentation for devs

You know, its not a question of 6months, again, MS use allready low level DirectX version for consoles, and im sure they was allready had developpers engineers who was developping project in this sense... AMD have scramble a bit all of that.. consoles use now x86 systems ( GPu and CPU ), to a certain extend, the extensions of DX12 are not new, they are allready used in the PS4 and Xbox one DirectX API. MS will not re invent the wheel.. they have allready a low level version of DirectX running today in consoles.

[To(V)bo Co(V)bo]

Charlie still really needs subscription/ads for his crappy site ?
What an homeless !

I am pretty certain that the main reason for subscriptions, is for the "inside information." In the world of stock trading, insider trading is a huge problem. Many traders were using his information for trades. He recognized this fact, and is trying to capitalize on it. Average readers would never pay for the articles.

[Final8ty]

GDC 14: CRYENGINE To Support Mantle, AMD Gets Another Endorsement

Crytek has been "evaluating" the API for quite some time now, showing interest back at the AMD Developer Summit. Since then, they have apparently made a clear decision on it. It is also not the first time that CRYENGINE has been publicly introduced to Mantle, with Chris Robert's Star Citizen, also powered by the 4th Generation CRYENGINE, having announced support for the graphics API. Of course, there is a large gap between having a licensee do legwork to include an API and having the engine developer provide you supported builds (that would be like saying UnrealEngine 3 supports the original Wii).

Hopefully we will learn more as GDC continues.

Editor's (Ryan) Take:

As the week at GDC has gone on, AMD continues to push forward with Mantle and calls Crytek's implementation of the low level API "a huge endorsement" of the company's direction and vision for the future. Many, including myself, have considered that the pending announcement of DX12 would be a major set back for Mantle but AMD claims that is "short sited" and as more developers come into the Mantle ecosystem it is proof AMD is doing the "right thing."

Here at GDC, AMD told us they have expanded the number of beta Mantle members dramatically with plenty more applications (dozens) in waiting. Obviously this could put a lot of strain on AMD for Mantle support and maintenance but representatives assure us that the major work of building out documentation and development tools is nearly 100% behind them.

If stories like this one over at Semiaccurate are true, and that Microsoft's DirectX 12 will be nearly identical to AMD Mantle, then it makes sense that developers serious about new gaming engines can get a leg up on projects by learning Mantle today. Applying that knowledge to the DX12 API upon its release could speed up development and improve implementation efficiency. From what I am hearing from the few developers willing to even mention DX12, Mantle is much further along in its release (late beta) than DX12 is (early alpha).

AMD indeed was talking with and sharing the development of Mantle with Microsoft "every step of the way" and AMD has stated on several occasions that there were two outcomes with Mantle; it either becomes or inspires a new industry standard in game development. Even if DX12 is more or less a carbon copy of Mantle, forcing NVIDIA to implement that API style with DX12's release, AMD could potentially have the advantage of gaming performance and support between now and Microsoft's DirectX release. That could be as much as a full calendar year from reports we are getting at GDC.

http://www.pcper.com/news/General-Te...er-Endorsement

[SKYMTL]

Something was lost in translation. DX12 i a "facilitator" API which brings programming closer to the metal. It is similar to Mantle and uses many of the same concepts but is, under no circumstance, "DirectX with Mantle Integrated". If anything, DX12 will render Mantle obsolete but it could also give AMD the leg up on dev cycles.

[crash5s]

You are completely right, one main reason was the diversity of gpu's system brand, what extension use ? does DX need to allow specific low level extensions from one vendor, not the other and vice versa ?.. But some years ago, well before Mantle, whatever it is AMD or Nvidia or even Intel, they have find a way to push developpers to use their own specific "features ", "extension", codes, method... not at the API level, but directly in the game engine .. ( whatever it was for favor their own architecture or diminish the return in performance of their competitor ). I tend to believe, today the problem is absolutely not the same as it was in the early 2000...

Well... it's not only because there can be different GPUs, though that is a huge cause of it. But it's also for security and stability. You're never going to get a low level API that can fully use the GPU on a platform like Windows. Maybe if they released a locked box that could only play games do very little else you could, but then it would cease being a computer.

Essentially pick one. You can have a box where you decide what goes in it and you can do all sorts of things... but the performance of your parts is crippled and you can never fully use them. Or you can have a locked down box where you have minimal/no input on what you can put it in it and it can only do a limited set of thing... but you can squeeze every last drop of performance out of it.

[fellix_bg]

NVIDIA will support the DX12 API on all the DX11-class GPUs it has shipped; these belong to the Fermi, Kepler and Maxwell architectural families. With more than 50% market share (65% for discrete graphics) among DX11-based gaming systems, NVIDIA alone will provide game developers the majority of the potential installed base.

http://blogs.nvidia.com/blog/2014/03/20/directx-12/

[Mr.X]

http://blogs.nvidia.com/blog/2014/03/20/directx-12/

Does this mean that Nvidia's DX11 cards will fully support all DX12 features? And if so, wouldn't AMD be able to do the same?

[zalbard]

Its hard to believe that Mantle influenced DX12 - I think it takes more than 6 months to come up with an API.

Microsoft says the work "began more than four years ago".
OpenGL has something similar coming up as well.
Is AMD really so bad at contacting the other developers? Or did they just want to push their own proprietary API?

Does this mean that Nvidia's DX11 cards will fully support all DX12 features?

According to Nvidia, they will. Not sure about full, I guess we will have to see.
They mention DX12 API support for Fermi, Kepler and Maxwell.

[fellix_bg]

Does this mean that Nvidia's DX11 cards will fully support all DX12 features?

Even if this means only API-overhead reduction, which is mostly a software issue, it's still a huge gain for the old generation.

[Iconyu]

Does this mean that Nvidia's DX11 cards will fully support all DX12 features? And if so, wouldn't AMD be able to do the same?

Yes, because AMD have been working on it, and there is no need for Microsoft to remake the wheel if Mantle does work on Fermi using the right drivers. Microsoft are good, but they can't build DX12 to the point it's at right now (Running Forza 4, on a Titan Black) without informing AMD and Nvidia before Oct 2013. Anyone that tells you otherwise is full of crap, AMD, Nvidia and Intel are DX partners and AMD wouldn't have needed to release Mantle if this was on he cards this soon.

[bill_d]

Q: When will I be able to get my hands on DirectX 12?
A: We are targeting Holiday 2015 games.

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/directx/arch...irectx-12.aspx

[madcho]

So, until 2015 mantle will rule

[KiSUAN]

Q: When will I be able to get my hands on DirectX 12?
A: We are targeting Holiday 2015 games.

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/directx/arch...irectx-12.aspx

So Mantle-AMD is 2 years ahead of Microsfot-Nvidia and forced this PR stunt on the competition, ouch!

I'm all in favor for whatever Dx12 brings, but this news seems rather pointless at this point apart from the marketing-PR perspective.

Microsoft says the work "began more than four years ago".
OpenGL has something similar coming up as well.
Is AMD really so bad at contacting the other developers? Or did they just want to push their own proprietary API?

So you also think AMD started working in Mantle yesterday?

Maybe they wanted to show they are ahead of the game, that they have features and a performance advantage that the competition won't have for 2 years and gain market share based on that.




By the way, everyone seems to be assuming that whatever Dx12 brings will be better than Mantel, sure the futures in Dx12 should be able to work both in Nvidia and AMD cards and that's good, but performance gains, implementation and other would be? (Disclaimer, I'm not even sure this question is valid or has ground, and I'm asking out of pure ignorance in hope someone with "real knowledge" could answer or even confirm my Q is or not that stupid)

[SKYMTL]

More details: http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/forum...lity-more.html

Complete backwards / forwards compatibility for Fermi, Maxwell, Kepler and GCN. IMO, that's huge.

[[XC] Lead Head]

I feel that it still being near 2 years out at the earliest, indicates that DX12 - at least the "direct to the metal" aspect of it seems to be in its infancy, possibly still in the very early stages of planning. It almost seems to me like nVidia and Microsoft just tried to whip something up to try and get back at AMD over Mantle.

With big names like Crytek committing to Mantle, and the nearly two year lead it's going to have, I feel either one of two things are going to happen around the end of 2015: Either A: Mantle will just quietly die quickly, or B: There's going to be a brutal fight between the two. With Valve committed to OpenGL (with rumors of Source2 completely dropping the DirectX pipeline), and others showing support for SteamOS/Linux, I almost see a situation like we had in the late 90s occurring again. Three different APIs all competing against each other.

[Lightman]

Just to clarify, nVidia and AMD were talking to MS about DX12 for 4 years. MS started work on DX12 last year.