AMD proprietary API: Mantle

[STEvil]

mantle doesnt remove tesselation, it just calls it something different if that even.

[Vardant]

https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack

This one is much more interesting.

[radier]

We ask AMD: Why will Mantle be different?

[kl0012]

We ask AMD: Why will Mantle be different?

Did he actually answer the question? How the API would be different from other proprietary, slowly dying (or already died) APIs (such as Glide)?

[zalbard]

^^ not all of them fall...
some other decide to get very fat, rich, and never release the third instalment of half life..

Made me laugh, thanks!

[eric66]

Pure Nvidia troll didn't expect much from him anyway he will die with his beloved OpenGl thats for sure

[NEOAethyr]

Pure Nvidia troll didn't expect much from him anyway he will die with his beloved OpenGl thats for sure

Crap like this makes me think back to some of the rude stuff I've posted before...

[zalbard]

Crap like this makes me think back to some of the rude stuff I've posted before...

Same here.

[Dimitriman]

Maybe cause there is no Gaming Evolved dollars flowing in for him??

[Hoboclese]

one of the first things i thought of when i read this was that there might be some really good AMD 'drivers'? coming to linux...

[kuroikenshi]

Made me laugh, thanks!

any time,

[Tao~]

Mantle seems to be directed at consoles with their pathetic Jaguar-cores where the CPU overhead may kill performance. This should allow devs to extract higher performance than those small GPUs can provide (they are using a Bonaire for heaven's sake)
For PC the benefits seem not obvious - can somebody explain how this will alleviate bottlenecks when people have PCIe 3 and Haswell ?

[Olivon]

AMD Mantle, Raja Koduri interview - HFR

Translated

[SKYMTL]

Mantle seems to be directed at consoles with their pathetic Jaguar-cores where the CPU overhead may kill performance. This should allow devs to extract higher performance than those small GPUs can provide (they are using a Bonaire for heaven's sake)
For PC the benefits seem not obvious - can somebody explain how this will alleviate bottlenecks when people have PCIe 3 and Haswell ?

Hmmmm...where to start.

First and foremost, Mantle isn't about adding resources, it is primarily about using existing resources more efficiently. That's one of the cornerstones of console design. Porting that concept to the PC

So, how does it eliminate bottlenecks? By giving a game engine direct or at least better control over how those resources are allocated. In the past, a game engine would have to process its requests through a driver stack, run through the associated API, parse calculations through a complex maze of CPU and memory requests and then finally get data back.

All of that was high-level in nature while Mantle brings it down to a lower, close to metal level where the game's engine acts as the primary resource allocator. In addition to that, Mantle includes a very thin driver layer which interacts directly with the hardware which makes the whole development and implementation process much more efficient.

Something else people need to realize is that Mantle will (supposedly) incorporate native support for every single DirectX feature through its implementation of the DirectX HLSL. Nothing is stopping developers from still utilizing DirectX / Direct3D as a high level API while Mantle could be used as a low-level facilitator.

Unfortunately, most Mantle info will only be released until November.

[kl0012]

Hmmmm...where to start.

First and foremost, Mantle isn't about adding resources, it is primarily about using existing resources more efficiently. That's one of the cornerstones of console design. Porting that concept to the PC

So, how does it eliminate bottlenecks? By giving a game engine direct or at least better control over how those resources are allocated. In the past, a game engine would have to process its requests through a driver stack, run through the associated API, parse calculations through a complex maze of CPU and memory requests and then finally get data back.

All of that was high-level in nature while Mantle brings it down to a lower, close to metal level where the game's engine acts as the primary resource allocator. In addition to that, Mantle includes a very thin driver layer which interacts directly with the hardware which makes the whole development and implementation process much more efficient.

Unfortunately higher performance comes on expense of compatibility. AMD now uses its strong position on console market in order to push "console" approach into PC space but this is very dangerous way. No one cares about backward/forward compatibility on consoles. But what's going to happen when AMD decide to release a new GPU architecture? Will it be compatible with Mantle? What about other GPU vendors on the market? Should they provide their own implementations of low level APIs?

Something else people need to realize is that Mantle will (supposedly) incorporate native support for every single DirectX feature through its implementation of the DirectX HLSL. Nothing is stopping developers from still utilizing DirectX / Direct3D as a high level API while Mantle could be used as a low-level facilitator.

Mantle does not support DirectX. GCN architecture does. You can use Mantle, or DirectX, or both APIs together (probably), but it's not like you can utilizing DirectX by using Mantle.

Unfortunately, most Mantle info will only be released until November.

True.

[SKYMTL]

Unfortunately higher performance comes on expense of compatibility. AMD now uses its strong position on console market in order to push "console" approach into PC space but this is very dangerous way. No one cares about backward/forward compatibility on consoles. But what's going to happen when AMD decide to release a new GPU architecture? Will it be compatible with Mantle? What about other GPU vendors on the market? Should they provide their own implementations of low level APIs?

It's all about software / hardware hooks. Provided those same hooks and low level feature sets are carried over into subsequent versions of the GCN architecture or future evolutions thereof, Mantle will have continued support.

Mantle does not support DirectX. GCN architecture does. You can use Mantle, or DirectX, or both APIs together (probably), but it's not like you can utilizing DirectX by using Mantle.

I think you may have misinterpreted my comment. Native feature level support does not mean DirectX is included "within" Mantle. My point is that Mantle will have compatibility with DirectX features so it's not like specific rendering methods or AA algorithms will be pushed aside. Through HLSL, they can be implemented in Mantle, though how well no one really knows.

[Sparky]

Unfortunately higher performance comes on expense of compatibility. AMD now uses its strong position on console market in order to push "console" approach into PC space but this is very dangerous way. No one cares about backward/forward compatibility on consoles. But what's going to happen when AMD decide to release a new GPU architecture? Will it be compatible with Mantle? What about other GPU vendors on the market? Should they provide their own implementations of low level APIs?

It's all about software / hardware hooks. Provided those same hooks and low level feature sets are carried over into subsequent versions of the GCN architecture or future evolutions thereof, Mantle will have continued support.

This. If It catches on well, AMD would be shooting themselves in the foot by not continuing the support for it.

BUT, even if they did drop it, that won't make stuff stop working as the software will the revert to the high level API stuff that would be necessary to run on other hardware already (older AMD cards, or nvidia cards, etc).

[Olivon]

They give them the benefit of saving time, which is money to a dev, while offering extra support.
Cash isn't changing hands...

AMD spent millions on Battlefield 4 deal - Fudzilla

The deal that is said to be worth between $5 million and $8 million will give AMD a new "face" in the eyes of gamers and with very good Hawaii R9 and R7 cards to launch just in time for the game, this has a chance to become quite successful PR stunt for AMD.

[SKYMTL]

If it truly benefits AMD Radeon users, it isn't a PR stunt.

[Lanek]

AMD spent millions on Battlefield 4 deal - Fudzilla

their multiple source is Nvidia ?

I dont think Dice have any "exclusivity" on Mantle. Secondly, AMD and many other games developpers are working on Mantle since ~ 2-3years... ( in general if someone want exclusive access to something, this the guy who want this exclusivity who pay for it )

I ask me how much on thoses millions are R&D money put on the table from AMD for both their work and the work of Dice developpers on Mantle. Then we are on standard deal between games developpers in the Game Evolved program. ( including the bundles and other deals )

[LordEC911]

AMD spent millions on Battlefield 4 deal - Fudzilla

I was talking specifically about Mantle, the deal was for AMD exclusivity for all the engine tech/demos, bundling deal and marketing.
Even then, I doubt it was a cash deal.

[Dimitriman]

By definition PR is promotion without investment, if it requires investment it is simply Marketing.

[tbone8ty]

would be cool if Mantle was able to somehow leverage Kaveri HSA/HUMA features with the on board gpu for low level stuff to feed a R9-290x.

[AbortRetryFail?]

This one is much more interesting.

Considering MS is a partner in Mantle, I doubt it.

[Lanek]

Considering MS is a partner in Mantle, I doubt it.

Same for Sony, as it will be on the APU13 and the presentation of Mantle this next november.

I think we miss many information about what happend yet between MS and AMD... ( who is the only one who provide new features for DX anyway since DX10. for what i heard from developpers, MS is tired of taking care of the support of D3D ( DX ), and AMD could take care of it alone. ( or even push Mantle as the replacement of DirectX for an completely unified low level API for consoles, APU tablet, and PC ).

After MS have put behind the nv API in the early DX8 period.. Nvidia have need then embrace DirectX.. so why not do the same with Mantle, and seen nvidia port Mantle for their own architecture. ( using the same low level API, but who act with Nvidia architecture, the same it work for AMD architecture ) ( when you read AMD guys interview, its exactly what they say:" nobody will stop Nvidia to take Mantle and developp his own version of Mantle for his architecture" ). Today games developpers work with a lot of API.. why not reduce this number to 2-3 low level API, who give to the developpers a complete and direct access to the hardware.... let say you have MantleAMD, NVMantle, and IntelMantle.. thats all you need..

DirectX, openGL and high level API was needed a certain time, when they was a multiple graphic core architecture makers, but today, you have AMD, Nvidia for desktop and AMD and Intel for CPU with integrated gpu.. thats all.. And they need something coherent too for unleash the performance on tablet x86 . And what most important of get a full control on the metal level for it. Because tablet makers, like Apple have absolutely no problem to push performance by having access to the low level, metal of the GPU used on their SOC.. ( whatever it is Google, Samsung or Apple, they can use low level bare metal access for their API without any problem )