MSI PM8M3-V rev. 1 - unstable gaming only

[caps_buster]

I working with computes since 1991 and there is not much that I cannot understand, but this MSI mobo is challenging me. So, the mobo in question is a MSI PM8M3-V with PCB rev. 1.0 and latest bios v1.4 used.

Board: MSI PM8M3-V (VIA P4M800) PCV rev. 1.0
Bios: Version 1.4
VGA: PNY 6800GT 256MB DDR3 350MHz/1GHz
PSU: Enermax Liberty 620W PSU (replaced caps to quality ones!)
CPU: 2800MHz Celeron D 336 (133x21) 1.350Vcore
MEM: 2048MB OCZP4001G 2.5-3-2-7 200MHz 2.60V
HDD: 500G Western Digital 16MB cache (WD5000AAKB)
COOLER: Intel box cooler, checked, AS paste applied, cooling good (slowing all the way down to 1000 rpm in reality)
OC: NONE! (tried FSB 133 -> 138 and it get unstable even in Firefox, lol)
OS: Windows 2000 SP4 Czech

More info:
19" iiyama ProLite E1980SD 1280x1024 75Hz DVI
DVDRW NEC DV-4551A (16x DVDRW)
IDE 100MB zip
floppy with 7+1 USB2 reader Mitsumi FA404
Using PS2 mouse (Logitech MX510 red)
OkiPage 14ex laser printer
NetGear WGR614 fireWall / 54MBi WiFi - OFF

The Cause
--------------
While the mobo is perfectly stable in normal usage, gaming is a problem. I working hard to make the mobo stable, it is not stable in 3D games. In the end of making it stable it is not stable even in 2D Windows... lol.

To cut long story short - at first, it was just a mobo full of known bad caps that sometimes refuse to boot and losing clock AND bios settings when power is cut off. Sometimes it also crash during SoF2 _LOADING_ (never gaming), but that it is. Very rare crash.


So I replaced all the caps, put even these that aren't there back in action and used hi-grade caps. For example the best polymers that even exist Nichicon LE for Vcore and for voltage supply there are Nichicon HZ caps - the best elyte caps even made - king in terms of ripple current, only Samxon GA is "par to par" with them, but that it is. Sourced from Digikey, so, originals.


Result - still not stable. So I blamed the Radeon 9100 with questionable caps and added 120mm fan blowing on it.
Still no help, rare crashes of game. Fast Writes disabled, AGP 4x (R9100 cannot go faster), 1 WS Write/Read used, Calibration ON.
So I replaced the Radeon 9100 with GeFroce 6800GT, that have only 3 caps (Chemi-con polymers) and worked well for me before. Truth is a years ago... http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=189594

Problems get worser. Even exiting SoF2 or Quake3 is impossible now. It always freeze on exit...! It get reasonably stable for playing, yet try save screenshot and it crash ASAP. So I try lower the AGP rate (allow me to choose only 8x or 4x), disable Fast Writes, disable AGP Master 1 WS Write/Read and even disable AGP 3.0 Calibration Cycle (one by one). No help.
So I toyed with the voltage, raising from 1.55 to 1.70 and no help either.

Another thing that I added a huge nice heatsink on the NB, because the original one was pretty small and useless. And I discovered beneath it, that there was just a dip of white paste widely off center and that was it. Most of the heatsink did not even have contact with the chip...!
So I tought - I got this! Laped a BIG heatsink, Arctic past used and screwed it tight on the NB... and again no help.


So the last thing to toy with is the AGP Driving Value. It can be changed from 00 to FF, defaut on Auto show DA.
Dunno what will happen, but I run out of ideas right now.

Therefore I'm open to ideas. About the caps - there is one about 10uF SMD cap at the very end of AGP port. This cap I did not replaced. Could this be the culprit? Any suggestion about the Driving Value? I think - try 0 (00), 32 (20), 64 (40), 96(60), 128 (80), 160 (A0), 192 (C0), 224 (E0) and 255 (FF) and see, witch of these values give the best stability?

[i found nemo]

what about the video card? can u run furmark or occt gpu test on it to test for stability? also what are your temps of cpu and gpu? does your north bridge feel hot? have you tried ram testing? like super pi 2m or memtest? i doubt it's cpu related at all. but if ram and gpu pan out stable i'd have to say your motherboard might just be at it's limits. nothing lasts forever.

[caps_buster]

Not tried FurMark, but will. How long you think...?
CPU temp is 35?C iddle, 42?C on full load after like a 5min or more. Not climbing higher.
Dunno what NB feels like, there i s one temp sensor that is reporting mobo temp and another for CPU - and thir, that is reporting about 47?C and I thought that it will be the NB. Wrong. After much bigger heatsink used, this temp is the same. Yet it slightly rise when on load, so I bet the CPU VRM is this.



Agreed that the Prime95 stress tests must be passed. And they are passed easily. So hard to find a problem there...

But the Furmark is weird - won't run:


And yet the GPU-Z is reporting that I have GeForce 6xxx...



PS. find a way - not Furmark (dunno why, Forceware should support OpenGL v2 in version 61.76 WHQ, nope?), but ATI tool works


...and according to this: http://www.techpowerup.com/gpudb/177...00-gt-agp.html A OpenGL v2.1 is supported by the HW and since Forceware drivers support the HW, then it should be supported...

[i found nemo]

maybe it is an agp issue with that program. ur temps look fine.. how about ram? maybe some super pi stability testing, also memtest dos or in windows is a decent tool. if you do memtest try to pass 500%

[ent]

Probably obvious suggestions, but well some things sometimes get unnoticed - correct me if I am wrong but VIA P4M800 still had PCI/AGP clocks linked to FSB, you say you have FSB at 133, but are the dividers for PCI/AGP correct (should be 4:2:1)? Also did you try lowering your mem frequency to run 1:1 with FSB maybe even other RAM sticks are worth checking?

[xpower]

whats makes you think that caps of the mobo went bad? changing the heat sink is also not going to solve any thing. not stable means its settings, power or caps issue your pc should't post. tried default all Auto settings yet, stress test cpu stable?

[RVWinkle]

sometimes refuse to boot and losing clock AND bios settings when power is cut off.

Replace CMOS Battery

Sometimes it also crash during SoF2 _LOADING_ (never gaming), but that it is. Very rare crash.

Reinstall windows

Any suggestion about the Driving Value? I think - try 0 (00), 32 (20), 64 (40), 96(60), 128 (80), 160 (A0), 192 (C0), 224 (E0) and 255 (FF) and see, witch of these values give the best stability?

Reset BIOS defaults

[caps_buster]

First - thank you all for the suggestions! I will try them one by one...

i found nemo - memtest:

Granted. 7 hours of my sleep straight w/o a single error. As I told you already, memory is OKAY. But yet again - systems that pass memtest like that can fail under 5 min in Prime95 torture memory test... just start with the Min. FFT size of 1792 and see for yourself.
Best way - overclock up your machine ram till the memtest fail, then step down 2 or 3MHz and it does not fail for hours. Then do the Prime95 torture test/custom/set Min. FFT to 1792 and guaranted, under 5 min you get error.
Easy as that. Prime95 memtest also not giving any errors at all, and I won't wonder about it, since the mobo got all caps replaced with quality ones.

ent - you are right, FBS is 133MHz and ram clock is by SPD, eg. 200MHz. Dunno what the dividers are set, but with standard bios these values are not even visible. I can unlock them by Modbin, tough. I got suggested a new bios, anyway. I was under the impression that v1.4 is latest, but wrong. There is v1.5:
http://www.msi-computer.co.jp/support/bios/?p=PM8M3-V
After flashing, the issue is sadly still there. I use it now, but it still crash. But I failed to find even way to disable the IGP in bios! Check for yourself, how much hidden options there are for the IGP, but _NONE_ of them are OFF!
So I started today with the bios v1.5. So I updated the bios, let almost the default settings (all default for AGP) - 8x, Aperture size 128MB, all on, Fast Writes Off.
However no help. The SoF2 game works well - untill I hit the screenshot button. Then in crash:



So bios are no help and my bios tweaking is not responsible for any failures.


xpower - well, the caps are from known bad brands Ost and G-Luxons. They are known to fail, even the Ost are considered as better of the bad caps, yet little point talking about them now. I replaced them all with the best quality caps ever - polymers Nichicon LE for the Vcore output:


Tried default all settings and tried tests. CPU and ram are rock stable. Trying even a little O/C is disasterous. Probably because not of the CPU/ram, but because of the AGP and gfx card...



RVWinkle - already replaced the battery. Not tried yet off the machine from power completely... I tried reset bios - even the reflash with new one was done this way:
awdflash bios.bin /PY /SN /CC /CD /CP /F /Tiny /R
...witch clear pretty much all. I try reinstall windows and pray for the best...





Prime 95 memory test at the tightest timings the rams can handle - that means CL2!
(2-3-2-7)
And I would very much recommend them the stability, because there are damn good caps used for rams now:


Prime 95 CPU test

[i found nemo]

have a spare psu? or a volt meter? have u tried baking the mobo?

[caps_buster]

Yes, I do have spare PSU and even a voltmeter. What do you having in mind? Check the voltages?

And no, no baking of the mobo is attempted and I don't think I will try something like that before I do some tests first - and before replacing the last capacitor. This is too intense for me... and mainly for the caps.

[i found nemo]

yes observe your voltages when u test/game make sure you dn't have crazy v.droop. something is seriously wrong when u game bro... bad agp port? haven't been stumped like this for a while!

also have you completed the occt gpu test? it's only 1hr.

[caps_buster]

Good idea about the voltages measuring during game, but the fun fact is, that I just played for hour and so and it not crashed. SoF2 freeze on exit only... (I tried exit to game menu - that worked, yet the menu is drawn by 3D also - and when complete exit I selected, then it freeze).

But worth checking.

Bad AGP port? Why not. But then once again, why I can play? Exiting game is hardly more serious load on the AGP port that playing it, right?

Occt GPU test? Where to download it? Will it work on W2k and w/o any crazy .NETframeworks and stuff?

haven't been stumped like this for a while!

Yep, me neither. I tring to use a better cooler, but the selled did not uncluded a P4 backplate screws for me, damn. So, testing the better cooling idea is postponed, till I get the screws

[i found nemo]

http://www.ocbase.com/index.php/download

should not require any .net framework updates.

maybe it is just that game?

sata/ide cords fine?

also hdtune is a good program to check if your disk has bad clusters on it. http://www.hdtune.com/files/hdtune_255.exe

after you get the program running, click on the " error scan " tab. do the long version not the " quick scan " version. it might take a while but it is a good program to check for physical damage on the hdd platters. and it's free :p

[caps_buster]

Hmmm, OCCT also require the .NETframework and did not run...

It is not just the game for sure, like I saz alreadz, Quake 3 behave the same. I try CoD (1) as it have same engine and we see... I bet same problem come up.

HDD seems fine by me, starting HD tune full scan now...


PS. I would like to mention that the PC did not started correctly today. After a post it ended in endless loop with just the flicking lene char from dos "_" in the top left corner. Failing to enter the VGA mode once again. Reset fix that, but you know I suspect the cap there, the last did not changed one. Right?

[caps_buster]

HDD tests did not reveal any problem:



...so I think we can rule HDD or HDD cabled problem out of the question. Also I would noticed HDD errors, and they are nonexistant.



...but I suspecting the one cap that I did not replaced yet, because I did not trust caps at all after some failures. I would like to mention that the PC did not started correctly today. After a post it ended in endless loop with just the flicking lene char from dos "_" in the top left corner. Failing to enter the VGA mode once again. Reset fix that, but you know I suspect the cap:



(the small, 10uF 16V (?) one that I did not yet replaced, the rest are replaced with quality Nichicons)

[i found nemo]

yea.. it may be that cap.. cuz idk any other suggestions, we've gone thru them all. that or change your pll j/k. when/if u replace ur cap let me know the results as i'd really like to know.

[caps_buster]

Well, we are not thru all, not reinstalled yet. Also not tested Furmark yet, as it does not work... and IMHO it should. But sfter two hours of gaming the PC finally crashed (at first, it took two crash attempts to get SoF2 working, but once it is working, then things go smoothly - no more crashes in loading, as with Radeon 9100) and I took the oportunity to diassemble it right away and check temps and then voltages.

Temps
CPU Vcore regulators are lightly mildly warm, as if there is nothing going on. Clearly good surprise, they obviously benefit from the quality caps and even under load stays cool. Great.
GFX card - cold, well cooled.
But NB chipset cooler (and now it is a BIG one) is relatively warmer that expected. It is not like hot, but clearly I expected lesser temperature. So my idea that a better cooling is necessary might not be far off the reality what is need. That is why I get the Thermalright SI-128 SE... but the damn bottom scews are missing, so I cannot use it
Rams are about the same temp, as the NB heatsink. Well warm, not hot, but warm.

Voltages
3.40V, 5.11V and 12.01V on the wires from PSU to HDD/GFX card. Directly on the GFX card connector there is a 11.99V, so the cables and connection give 0.02V drop. Not bad at all.
Vbattery is 3.56V.
But what I see as definitive BAD NEWS is the voltage I measured on the last not exchanged cap. And that is precisely 1.55V.
Ring any bell? Yeees, this is the AGP voltage set in bios! So clearly this cap have something to do with the AGP and it is not at all impossible, that it could be the culprit behind the crashes.

Because to me it seems that everytime the GFX card should change it's mode of operation (from TXT mode to VGA mode, from 2D to 3D...), then it is very likely to crash.
Actually todays 4 times it hang on TXT mode to VGA mode switch, during all the resets and powering on and on again...

Bottom line - dunno if this is caused by the exchange of GFX card or not, but time and bios settings are lost once again, even I put a new battery there.
(I have to use small GFX card (old good Riva ) to be able to measure the voltage on the small SMD cap.

[mockingbird]

You have still not excluded the PSU as the possible culprit... Not saying it's certain that it is, but as Sherlock Holmes said: "Once you exclude the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth".

[caps_buster]

So, I take it that the voltage measuring did not convinced you, that Enermax PSUs like Samxon GD caps? Fine then, as last resort I can do it... but I'm just after a reinstall, so... Now I test again the exit problem
BTW, before reinstall I installed the NETframework. Version 2.0 works, just install of v2.0 SP1 does not. But in both cases then the testing tools failed miserably:





So testing tools that require way too much are out of the question.


MSI PM8M3-V bois v1.4 (+ unlocked v1.4) and v1.5 (+ unlocked v1.5):
http://www.mediafire.com/?9npsvnsc8pmzhx1
http://dfiles.eu/files/z5ar3lnbl
http://www.uloz.to/xKAgfX51/MSI+PM8M3-V+bioses.zip

[mockingbird]

So, I take it that the voltage measuring did not convinced you, that Enermax PSUs like Samxon GD caps? Fine then, as last resort I can do it... but I'm just after a reinstall, so... Now I test again the exit problem

Test the voltage, by all means... But the voltage you should be testing for is AC current on the DC rails (a.k.a "ripple")... Why do you keep reinstalling? That won't help a thing.

[caps_buster]

Well, my scope is stolen by these dastardly thiefs and still not returned by the police So I cannot check on the ripple right now.

However you are dead wrong on the "reinstalling won't help a thing." It does. No more exit crashes! And that is very important for me! Because as it now looks like, I can play, but only for some time before crash come. That would narrow this problem down quite simple to overheating.

Either the NB, the mosfets for the AGP or the GPU VRM is overheating during gaming till the point of crash.

- NB got good huge new heatsink and all that effort did not change a thing, so it is not the NB (very likely)

- GPU VRM I was under the impression that it should be good, because I used the card before w/o troubles for gaming (but it is like 4 or 5 years ago)... On the card are only 3 caps (rest are SMD ceramics/tantal) and two input 330uF 16V SMD Chemicon polymers and one 100uF 16V SMD Nichicon UD that got 3.4V on it and it is therefore probably used to filter the 3.3V line (that is having on the PSU the 3.4V) for something. All these caps can be replaced for Nichicon polymers easily (even with slight capacitance bump to 470/150uF respectively) to be determined, if the caps are gone for good and the temperature will lower down, or not. Also the heatsink on these VRM chips is laughable and I cannot make stick to these Arctic cooling heatsinks there, so a complete rework of custom solid heatsink is another possibility to battle the temps. I just don't know, if I can just apply Arctic silver on the chips and slap a cooper heatsink on them... because the currently used "heatsink" looks like it is from plastic and also there is like 2mm thick rubber tape on it, witch does not like it can transfer heat effectively at all. It looks more likely as some sort of isulation, but I have no idea... Yet I fear that these weird regulators (looking like 4x6mm squashed pieces of metal, only about 1mm high over the PCB, no legs or nothing... never seen that before and fail to find anything remotely reassembling it on Google) cannot be "connected" by metal heatsink, witch is why there is the isulation rubber band...
The card looks almost exactly like this: http://www.techpowerup.com/gpudb/177...00-gt-agp.html
Just the caps are not Sanyo Oscons and the heatsink is black, like this one: http://www.3dfx.ch/gallery/d/43780-1...A+0435+top.jpg

What definitively worry me is the low number of caps. Compared to these 6800 cards:
http://images.esellerpro.com/2131/I/...leDCP_6965.JPG
http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/7...35705hq1yl.jpg
http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/8...0newold2us.jpg
http://img234.imageshack.us/img234/3...0jmoron4xo.jpg
http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/2...pmodu1b1qs.jpg
So, I'm worried about the quality of these Chemicon polymers and if they are up to the job also... I just todays find a Chemicon KZG bulging and one close to him leaking a little from the top already on Soltek mainboard, so it verify my distrust for these Chemicon caps. If this are on the input Vcore, then fine - PSU is the culprit. But this is on the OUTPUT CPU Vcore regulator...

- mosfets for the AGP - this is basicaly your idea and it is worth checking out and possibly replacing the bad mosfets with way better relacements it attempt to cure the problem, but most of the card power should be taken from the moles, nope?

[mockingbird]

I think you need to organize your thoughts as you seem to be going in too many directions. It always helps to get a perspective from someone not engaged in the task at the moment...

Which videocard exactly are you refering to? Do you have a 6800GT? I thought you said you were using a Radeon 9100? If it's of any help, GeForce cards after the "FX" generation up to the last iteration of G9x chipset (GeForce 9xxx, etc.) require reflowing because of two reasons. One is that the GPUs were not designed properly and the leads tend to seperate from the bumps. Another is that these cards were made when non-leaded solder alloys were still being experimented with and some of them were very brittle. I personally have had to reflow my GeForce 7300GT twice now (The first time I did not use enough flux, the second time around I injected enough with a syringe so that the entire bottom of the chip was saturated). I know it's time to reflow when my computer, which otherwise runs fine starts to BSOD for no reason (And this goes away completely after the reflow).

Before checking the FETs, I would try a different PSU. When testing FETs, keep in mind that they can appear fine out of circuit on the tester, but will exhibit signs of failure when actually tasked with the loads they're required to drive. So the most inexpensive and least time consuming (But not surefire) way of testing them might be with heat sensing gun. If you decide to test them out of circuit, keep in mind that they are not easy at all to desolder and there is a good chance that you might even rip off a pad and render the board completely useless...

I have to ask, because I have this question in the back of my mind, and don't take offense to it: Why on earth are you investing so much time on such a worthless board?

[caps_buster]

Prime95 overnight CPU torture test - 7h 8min


No errors. Claims, that the machine is unstable in terms of CPU are dismissed. It must be the gfx card and/or it's powering.

[i found nemo]

maybe.. i hate to say it.. buy a new pc XD amd?

[xpower]

is this error only a certain game or all the games?
also did you reinstall win? scan corrupted win files? virus scan etc? doesn't look a hardware issue....