Dual Xeon Workstation: Air Vs. Watercooling Advice.

[Conumdrum]

Yes, beside being TT, it's not made to hold the rad space you need. Physics. Can't win over physics. You need 120x5 once you put the GPU under water, you will.............

There is Paris Hilton pretty when it comes to cases, all the bling, but inside it's lacking and pretty much LOL.

[paulbagz]

Lol.

-pb

[m_jones_]

Plenty of nice cases under $250
Can't go wrong with this Lian Li case for the price http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811112387

[Jansa]

Yes, for sure forget about parts cost with water
+1 for for the reason to go with air.
For bling definitely water but then again there is no reason to consider price. Take what looks outmost cute for you.

My experience with SR-2 was maybe bit unique (only single heavily overclocked cpu without gpu(s)) but show me clearly that water-cooling gain over air is inappreciable. No matter how much pump power or radiator surface to add, different (expensive ones) cpu blocks, different TIM, fast-faster-fastest fans, fancy controllers to understand how system acts... I ended up with clear vision- any form of water-air heat exchange simply failed. Considering price difference for the loop and time wasted for that.
If you consider this time as learning... things could be again opposite

[LUCI5R]

LOL about the Paris Hilton comment! But I must add, no one would prefer it the other way either.

Then my follow up comment would be;

You're spending thousands of dollars on a 2P Xeon + Motherboard and are considering H20 for it (looking at a good $700-$1000 worth of gear there) and the extra $100 for a better case is too much?

Please please please don't think that I am trying to be a /troll etc but I have see this so many times before that people can't just budge that little bit extra when they are already going so far.

As for the L10GT, it's just not a great case for H20 and I'm sure people dislike it due to its "tacky" looks/feel.

-PB

Believe me when I say this, I agree with your comment whole-heartedly. I know exactly what you're talking about. Back in the day this used to be a very, very prevalent issue with PSU's. People were spending hundreds & hundreds of dollars on incredibly powerful machines with the latest dual core, quad core CPU's, powerful GPU's, SLI, Crossfire, but they would cheap out on PSU's. Believe me, I was there. I was spending $900 on my entire build using a Core 2 Duo or something and I had picked a $30 500W Power Supply!! Luckily good, knowledgeable people here showed me the light. So I know what you mean.

But let me raise a finer point about the case. Every component does have a limited budget in the overall budget; which is what makes some of the other components possible - or at least the version/brand being considered possible. You could look at that "is $100 more too much?" for every component in the list; and suddenly you have exceeded your budget by a $1000. You have to agree that every single component on the list can have a better one for a $100 more. That's the problem with giving in to just one of the component & crossing the budget for it. And that is the primary reason every component has a somewhat set budget.

And then there's a "Scale Of Significance" factor as well. Sometimes it boils down to choice; am I better off spending $100 on RAM, or CPU, or GPU, or Case, etc. So then the question comes in, which component holds more significance. Don't get me wrong; Case is VERY important. I need to be able to comfortably fit everything; it should be roomy; should have good cable management; and very importantly -- good cooling. And there is a lot of cases for $250 that'll cater to that need -- so spending an extra $100 is probably not worth it on the Case. You also have to admit a certain portion of the Case is about Aesthetics also -- which really doesn't add any functionality or feature to the actual Machine. Unlike something like RAM, CPU or GPU where it's 100% Functionality/Feature and 0% Aesthetics.

So again, I do agree with you to a very large extent. That portion is quite true - it just doesn't hold water in my particular case though.

Speaking of Aesthetics ... let me return to my original Paris Hilton counter-argument; and also address your last comment about L10GT.

I was recommended 800D. That is my counter-argument to the Paris Hilton theory. I just don't like the case. It's horrible-looking. I'm sorry. I know people love it; I know it's very highly recommended. Thing is, no matter how good it is inside & how beneficial it may be for me, and no matter how many fans that Case has --- I'm just not spending $4,000 on a Workstation where the ONE Component that I'll have to look at I actually quite dislike. So there is no way in the world I'm getting the 800D. I do like 900D, but like I said, it's not just that I don't "want" to spend $350 on it -- I actually don't think it's $350 Good!

In terms of your "tacky" comment about L10GT ... I think one thing you must agree with is that Aesthetics is always, always, always a very personal - individual choice. What's ugly to me could be beautiful to you and what's ugly to you could be beautiful to me. Perhaps people do find it tacky or whatever; I actually quite like the Case. I do have to consider the insides and if it's worthwhile for me & will deliver everything I need, but on the outside - I absolutely love the case. Don't really care what anybody else thinks of it's looks - I love it! THAT -- And the fact that I have a coupon that puts that Case at $192 for me is a big plus. It's under $200 that way - so I have to find something SERIOUSLY wrong with it to not buy it.

BUT, that's enough about the Case.

I actually came in here with some other comments. I don't quite honestly think that I can spend $260 or so on a Watercooling kit. It's just not fitting in my budget. Putting everything together, doing some realistic calculations, adding taxes & all, I had to revise my component-list-budgets to fit everything in the $4K. At this point I've even downgraded my CPU from the 10-Core E5-2660 V2 ($1500) to the 8-Core E5-2640 V2 ($1000) for 2 reasons:
- 2 X 2660 would be $3000; 2 X 2640 would be $2000. I just don't think 4 Extra Cores / 8 Extra Threads are worth $1000. That's like buying a Quad-Core Xeon for $1000. I think Dual 8-Core Xeons would suffice.
- At $1000/Piece, I should be able to get TWO CPU's right up front - and build my system from the onset with both CPU's, as opposed to waiting 3 ~ 6 months to get & add the 2nd CPU. At $1500/Piece, that would not be possible to do right now.

In terms of cooling, after adding all expenses, I just don't think I can swing $250 or so on Cooling. So at this time I'm either going Air (TPC-812 / Hyper 212) or the Hydro H100i or something. Either options look good - and are much cheaper.

Thanks guys!

[yojimbo197]

I get the aesthetics argument to an extent. There is a danger in falling in love with an idea(or component in this case), which is what I think people are trying to get you to realize. If you really want your components to last you need the benefits of good cooling and airflow. The added benefit of a bigger case is also space to work. Wouldn't something like the Cooler Master Cosmos II/III be a good compromise on aesthetics and functionality, but not as expensive as say the Silverstones? The Cosmos would also give you enough room to add watercooling if you wanted to in the future.

[LUCI5R]

I get the aesthetics argument to an extent. There is a danger in falling in love with an idea(or component in this case), which is what I think people are trying to get you to realize. If you really want your components to last you need the benefits of good cooling and airflow. The added benefit of a bigger case is also space to work. Wouldn't something like the Cooler Master Cosmos II/III be a good compromise on aesthetics and functionality, but not as expensive as say the Silverstones? The Cosmos would also give you enough room to add watercooling if you wanted to in the future.

Definitely understand your point; and to a large extent you've hit the nail on the head. And yes, I definitely am looking at the Cosmos series as well; they are not bad at all. I've haven't yet jumped the gun on Case, I have found quite a few choices for $250 so I'm definitely not sold on L10GT yet.

[Xanth]

I am going to play Devil's advocate here; I think this whole build has lost its direction.

You guys are debating watercooling parts and case aesthetics. This is a workstation. Its most important feature should be performance, reliability and uptime. I am surprised no one has posted this, and you may not initially agree with any of it, but one day you may. Either way, the information should at least be presented before you pull the trigger on something suboptimal.

I am a hardware enthusiast just like you, but I also depend on my workstations for my lively hood. Peoples lives depend on my ability to provide them timely and reliable information to help guide their decision making. My workstations have never been simple machines. I always utilize the latest multisocket configurations with large quantities of ram to receive and manipulate multi GB data sets in real time. I need at least two GPUs to allow for accelerated 2D and 3D volumetric reconstructions and to present that data on 6MP 10-bit displays. I upgrade my setup every 2-3 years as technology progresses. I initially built my first workstation using a Coolermaster Stacker case with a Supermicro motherboard and a mixture of other "overclocker gear", for the most part it worked great; however, since then I have had a Dell Precision 690, a Supermicro 7046, several Dell Precision T5500, and now Precision T7600.

My lastest configuration:
Dell Precision T7600
Dual Intel E5-2689 8C/16T CPUs
64 GB DDR-3 1600 ECC RAM
Samsung 840 Pro 512 GB
Nvidia NVS 440
Nvidia Quadro K5000
Dell 1300 watt Gold Power supply
Dell OEM Chassis, Heatsinks, and Fans.
APC 1500 BackUPS PRO

When I am not WORKing on my WORKstation I load Xubuntu on it and run Fold@home BigAdv. I essentially run the machine 24/7, either for work or to fold. Even at continuous full load it is quiet. I keep an extra power supply and a cloned copy of my operating systems and applications on the shelf as spares in case I need them. Eventually I will purchase a second empty T7600 barebones and leave it in the corner as a spare. The machine is under Dell warranty and I get overnight parts or a full replacement machine should I have a problem.

If you are serious about your work, you should seriously consider a proven system from Supermicro, HP, Dell, or Lenovo.

CPU: The E5-2600 xeons are a great choice; they run hard, they are power efficient, and they run relatively cool. Water cooling a 2P deskside workstation is a fools errand. The only justifiable need for water cooling is in extreme high density environments where you have 1u / 2u racks in a tight space. The processor can not really be overclocked, they run at their rated speeds and TDP. Any 4U/5U heatsink assembly from one of the above providers has more than enough cooling power to keep these cpus happy, even at 100% load in suboptimal warm office environments.

Motherboard: I love enthusiast motherboards and overclocker motherboards, but only for my gaming rigs. There is no point with E5 xeons. Supermicro makes some of the most reliable motherboards I have ever seen, and Dell, HP, and others source their custom boards directly from quality manufacturers such as FoxConn and Flextronics. The boards are often custom designs with thicker multilayer PCB and top tier components to ensure years of service at peak load. The component locations have often been optimized based on the chassis designs and fan locations. You will probably not be able to meet that level of reliability with a one off build.

Heatsinks: The OEM heatsinks used in these machines are often some of the high quality parts available. Dell and HP use custom designs with shrouds that allow for an optimized air flow path through the machine. Supermicro makes some of the best units I have ever used. They are not that expensive ($40) and are 4U copper heatpiped units with SanAce fans. You will not find an aftermarket heatsink with a more secure and reliable mounting mechanism than ones found in these workstations.

Fans: There is no Scythe or Noctuah in these machines. Here you will only find proven fans with extreme ranges and air flow capacities. My Supermicro came with San Ace fans that ran whisper quiet, but had a peak RPM of 5600, just in case I decided to run fold@home in my Florida garage with a 100 degree ambient temp. My Dells have come with Delta and Nidec, all PWM fans that are happy to run whisper quiet at 900 rpm or 6000 rpm depending on the ambient temperature and load.

Chassis: All these manufacturers use custom tool less steel chassis. They are built like tanks, their weight is their only disadvantage. The chassis can be broken down in seconds thanks to their custom designed hinges and locks. You can change out fans, hard drives, video cards, and even power supplies without tools and in seconds. This feature is so important when you need to get a bad part out and slap a good part in so you can continue working with minimal interruption. Like I said earlier, I keep a spare 1300 watt power supply on the shelf, just in case. If I needed to change it out, it would take me 30 seconds tops. Try that with a custom design.

Support: I buy dell because of the support. If I burn out a power supply and need to use the spare on the shelf I just email or call dell support and there will be a brand new one on my door step by 8am the next day. The same is true for motherboards, memory, cpus, or any other component purchased.

Video cards: Buying a consumer gamer card such as a GTX 780/Titan or HD7970 is a really bad idea. You really need to visit the Autodesk website and check out the list of certified video cards. Its all FirePROs and Quadros. Not because the hardware is superior, trust me its not, but its certified. They have special application specific drivers and support, the Nvidia and AMD do not remove the DP precision functionality that the gamer cards lack. A Quadro K5000 is multiple times faster than my GTX Titan in my professional applications, even though it is basically a rebadged GTX 680 and my titan is a rebadged K6000. If you buy a GTX 780, do not be surprised if a vastly "inferior" card such as a Quadro K2000 or K4000 wipes the floor with it. Just fair warning.

This post just scratches the surface, if you build your own, you will be on your own. If you are serious about your work and need 99.999% reliability, you will purchase a workstation with hardware specifications suited to your application. You should not really be asking people here, you should be asking your vendors who they recommend. It took me a long time to realize my work is more important than my hobby, my Overlocked water cooled 4770K / Maximus VI / Titan SLI setup is where I play BF3, my Dell precision T7600 is how I make my living. In my line of work I essentially have a limitless budget, spending 5, 10, 15K on a system would not seem ludicrous if it can provide me with 3-4 years of solid uptime and high performance. The rigs are tax deductable and the machine would easily pay for itself in a week, every hour I waste trying to trouble shoot it or repair it can cost me hundreds of dollars in lost income or more importantly precious free time with my family.

In the end, you will of course choose what you feel is best, but I hope you read through my post and get some insight from another person who depends on his machines, probably more than most anyone else you know.

Movieman, chime in here, set this boy straight.

[OldChap]

There is a lot of good said in the above post and I will add my 2cents here:

I have an asus Z9PE-D8 WS in a lian li pc90 fitted with es e5-26xx cpu's and watercooled with ut60 280, d5, ek res top and 2 ek supreme HF's. The form factor is EEB so you will have to drill mounting hole in the right place if using an eatx case like this.

I am also running a Supermicro SYS-7047A-T fitted with the same cpu's which use the stock coolers

Asus had issues with GPU choice as did the Supermicro... It is not a given that your favorite card is ok. so talk to your supplier.

Once set up either machine crunches all day but crunching is not as stressful as the work you speak of.

I live in UK so prices are very different, even so, by the time you put together a case + decent psu + Motherboard you will have spent a good portion of the cost of a barebones.... and the barebones will have useful additions such as hot swap drives etc.

I chose to watercool because I already had pump, blocks and fittings even so the cost of a rad + the res top combo was almost double that of the supermicro heatsinks and these come inclusive with the barebones.

Sitting here now I am glad that I have both. The watercooled rig is the quietest rig I ever owned but only runs 8 deg cooler however the highest temps I usually see for ambient is maybe 32. (I can shut the doors and windows to go higher )

The air cooled rig is not really much louder it is just a tone difference when hot (with these cpu's at least). Even though the asus is fitted with a seasonic 1000w platinum, the bigger psu (platinum) and the hot swap make the supermicro a better machine probably.... certainly easier to work on.

each have their place and although the asus has more tweaks etc in bios the supermicro just gets on with the job. Performance wise there is very little between the two

My next duallie purchase??? Probably another Supermicro