I've finally decided to go with water cooling

[Judaeus Apella]

You guys and everyone else I know has been nagging me for years go water. Fine! I give in! So, can someone take my hand and lead me into the world of water cooling?


Before I get into this, as of 2013 what are the most reliable and quiet 3/8 pumps? I found some guides that suggest pumps but they're all ancient. I'll just be cooling an LGA 1150 CPU and a 770 GTX, and I'll of course be overclocking but nothing hardcore. So no huge tubes and chilled water or anything. 3/8" seems like a good size for my first water cooling project.

I don't want something hammering away next to me while I'm trying to work or watch TV, so yeah I need something quiet, but reliability is obviously very important. Also, do any of these pumps come with a warranty that covers damage as a direct result if the pump fails? I don't want to set a price right now because I don't know what prices to expect. Just keep in mind I don't want something extreme. I'm a water cooling virgin so I wanna take it easy the first time. Next time if I have more money to spend, I'll probably do something bigger.


My first water cooling build will be in a Silverstone PS06, I know its a little cramped but I'm kinda stuck with it... for the time being. And really, its a pretty decent case. I like a lot of its features. Good use of space and lots of places for controlling wire clutter.

I should probably post links to the tower so you all know what I'm working with. This is the official page, so there's lots of information and specs, plus the manual:
http://www.silverstonetek.com/product.php?pid=298&area=

This review has some awesome pictures of the case in high res with great detail. Exactly what I was looking for:
http://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/417...ew/index5.html


Concerns:

1. While I don't want clutter around my PC, I also don't want warm system exhaust venting into the radiators or warm radiator exhaust venting into the system. So what are some solutions for this?
2. I was thinking I might be able to fit a reservoir and the pump right next to the motherboard on the right. It looks Silverstone probably had something like that in mind, because there's lots of unused screw holes there. Someone posted a setup like that HERE at overclock.net. Do you guys think this tower has enough room to do that?
3. What is involved in terms of cleaning or keeping the water cooling clean? Do the tubes, blocks, reservoir, and pump get slimy? Or is there a way to prevent that with an additive or do I use some kind of chemically treated water?
4. Compression fitting are too expensive. I've never done this so I have no experience with barbed fittings, like how dependable they are or how to make them as safe as possible. Like how to get the best fits or if I should find a clip or clamp of some kind? I learn better by talking to people and asking questions in forums so that's why I'm asking instead of searching. Its just how I prefer to learn.

A few things worth mentioning:

1. The back of the tower has two 6/8" diameter punch out holes at the top for water cooling.
2. If I have to, the tower has a window that is very easy to toolessly pop out and replace with my own plexiglass, which I can cut fan holes in. I have a nice sharp 120mm drill hole saw waiting to see some action. I'm hoping it gets some. So that is definitely an option to consider.
3. The drive cage and all its related parts, including the base it sits on, are all completely removable (nice touch Silverstone). So if I really need some space I can make a bunch more room by doing that as a last resort. But if I do that I can't use any of the 5.25" bays because I'll need those for my hard drives. I'd like to try and find a way to do this without resorting to that.... if possible.
4. There's a strange vent at the rear of the tower to the right of the PCI slots, with what looks like some kind of mounting screw and clip holes.... but I have no idea what its for. I'm really hoping I can do something with it? Anyone know or have any ideas? Here's a picture of it from that review: http://imagescdn.tweaktown.com/conte...eview_full.jpg

If I've asked a dumb questions.... have patience with me, I know very little about water cooling and have no experience with it at all. I did read some about it before making this thread, and looked around at different setups though. Unfortunately all I guides I found are ancient and refer to really old products. Looking for some modern guides and products.


Hope that all wasn't too much to read!

[Conumdrum]

Start here:
http://www.overclockers.com/forums/s...d.php?t=674257

Finish here, times have changed a LOT. Gonna have to start over almost:
http://www.overclockers.com/forums/s...d.php?t=628092

No warranty on the Mobo, ram etc if you screw up. It's a hobby, you live and learn.

[Judaeus Apella]

Thanks!

What I was talking about, is if I don't screw up and the pump fails because it was defective, and as a result damages my system. Are their any manufacturers who take responsibility for any damage their products cause, through the warranty?

It makes me so sad this place seems to be dying slowly. Six years ago, this topic probably would have gotten a bunch of replies by now. Man 200 views and just 1 reply. I really wanted to work on this project with the community.... but I think that might not happen.

[Judaeus Apella]

That second link is an information overload. That's why I like to ask questions, not just be linked to a bunch of guides.

Is anyone willing to actually sit down and answer my questions and help me? I was hoping I'd get that experience considering all the water cooling vets in here. Its not about laziness. I learn far better when I have one on one instruction instead of just having a bunch of books and reading material thrown at me. That's why I had to go to private school and get tutoring during my entire education. A lot of people who don't understand the way I learn get angry and frustrated at me, call me lazy, or say I'm making excuses, simply because they don't understand or don't care to. I've run into a lot of people like that in my life time... and that's exactly why I hated public schools so much. They just expect everyone to fall in line and all learn the same way. That doesn't work on me.

Also, sorry to say that first guide is out of date. I think I looked at that one... through through a different link before. It references and links to products that aren't sold anymore like the other guides I've seen that are all out of date. Another reason why I want to ask people questions.

With the lack of activity here... its with a heavy heart I'll probably have to find another community to learn from. Fond memories here, but its just not nearly as active as it used to be. For the past couple years I've been trying to send a people here, but I guess it didn't do much good.

[Makymaco]

What I was talking about, is if I don't screw up and the pump fails because it was defective, and as a result damages my system.

Take a pump with a rpm cable. PLug it on your motherboard and monitor the rpm. Shutdown automatically your pc by software if no rpm detected.
You can also put two pump in series, if one fail the other is here (it is the solution i use)

Is anyone willing to actually sit down and answer my questions and help me?

ask your questions and be patient

[Judaeus Apella]

Sorry, I didn't mean to be impatient. I didn't mean to give off that vibe Its just that the activity has really slowed here down to a crawl compared to years ago. By now this thread would have been on the second page already back when I first joined. Man... what happened..

Hmmm I like that automatic shut off option. What software does that? I've never even heard of that. Hmmm.... but does that kind of thing act fast enough? What if it can't shut down a program that freezes or something and that halts the shut down? Or does it ignore all shut down procedures, and just turn off the PC?

What's really confusing me is flow rate vs tube size, which model and types of blocks, pump, etc. I just want to do a standard 3/8. But first I'll ask what you guys recommend I should go with if I'm going to OC an 1150 CPU and a full block for a 770 GTX, and don't want a noisy pump. Keep in mind I'm not doing any hardcore over the top overclocking. I read that a lot of people get FPS in the 50's in Skyrim with a standard 770 GTX and I'd like to smooth out that frame rate and get a better average than that. So what would be a good goal for FPS gain, considering what I've said? And what kind of set up would that require?

I haven't found any road maps for the 1150's so I'm not sure what I'm getting yet. This project is going to take a while. I can't even buy a lot of parts until a few months from now.

[Makymaco]

If you have time, use it to dig in the forums to gain knowledge.

software : speedfan for example

There is temperature inertia in a waterloop, cpu and gpu have thermal protection.
If your are that worried, use two pumps in series

1/2 internal diameter is overkill
3/4 is good and a lot easier to use

The ps06 case is too small for watercooling .

It will be difficult to have recommandation if your don't specify the context :
- budget
- maximum size of case
- level of noise desired

if it were me for a cpu+gpu with a little overclocking, in a very quiet setup i would use :
- 4 x 120 elements or more, alphacool for example
- a d5 pump or mcp35x, you can set those pump speed and noise
- quiet fans like : noiseblocker m-12s2 or be quiet silent wing 2 with a fan controller

[Toolius]

Hello
For a pump.. go Liang D5 with speed control.
Koolance has a version with RPM monitoring. The D5's are pretty much dead silent when run under the speed setting of 3 and are super reliable.
3/8th ID tubing is more than enough .. there is very little to no difference with fatter tubes. Also 3/8th ID -5/8th OD has a really good bend radius to boot
What would help is if you can give us a budget to work with then we can start to recommend blocks and such
Cheers and kind regards !

[Judaeus Apella]

If you have time, use it to dig in the forums to gain knowledge.

Like I said, I have trouble learning that way. Throwing reading material or a book at me is the worst thing you can do. I have ADD. It really messes up my ability to "dig in", like you said. When I take any kind of classes, I usually need a tutor to help me with that. Plus I'm getting off of lexapro right now because of serious acid reflux side effects, and it has a month recovery time for the withdrawal effects. Its making me really loopy which further kills any chance of me being able to "dig in" and study anything.

software : speedfan for example.

How does that work exactly? How does the software interact with the pump? A USB connection?

There is temperature inertia in a waterloop, cpu and gpu have thermal protection.

You mean when they shut down if they get too hot? Isn't it sometimes too late by then?

1/2 internal diameter is overkill
3/4 is good and a lot easier to use

3/4 is larger than 1/2.... so doesn't that make it more of an overkill?

The ps06 case is too small for watercooling.

Are you sure? It seems awfully roomy to me. Have you worked with them before?

It will be difficult to have recommandation if your don't specify the context :
- budget
- maximum size of case
- level of noise desired

I don't really know what my budget is, cause I'm slowly gathering money as I go along. I posted lots of information about the case, click on the links. I don't know what the level of noise desired is because I've never used a pump and I have no idea what to compare it to. Its not like you're here to say that the neighbor mowing his lawn two houses down with my windows closed is about the right noise level for ______. I don't know how to answer that question.

if it were me for a cpu+gpu with a little overclocking, in a very quiet setup i would use :
- 4 x 120 elements or more, alphacool for example
- a d5 pump or mcp35x, you can set those pump speed and noise
- quiet fans like : noiseblocker m-12s2 or be quiet silent wing 2 with a fan controller

Elements? And I'm going with Deltas.

[Judaeus Apella]

Hello
For a pump.. go Liang D5 with speed control.
Koolance has a version with RPM monitoring.

Oh sweet, how does it interact with the PC? USB? PCI? Or hardware only? Does it rely on windows to shut down if there's a problem or does it ignore all shut down procedures? I'd rather have a tiny error on a $150 hard drive than a fried $400 video card or cpu. How reliable is the koolance? Do you remember the model name?

The D5's are pretty much dead silent when run under the speed setting of 3 and are super reliable.
3/8th ID tubing is more than enough .. there is very little to no difference with fatter tubes. Also 3/8th ID -5/8th OD has a really good bend radius to boot

Good I wanted to go with 3/8. 5/8? Is 5/8 more expensive to work with? OD? and isn't 5/8 one of the fatter tubes you said wouldn't make a difference

What would help is if you can give us a budget to work with then we can start to recommend blocks and such
Cheers and kind regards !

I don't really know what my budget is. Can you guys recommend a couple different options so I can do some number crunching, sleep on it and figure out if those price numbers work or not? I already like the EK 770 full water block... unless you guys know of something that's a better deal? It is a bit pricy... but I still like it. I want a full water block for the 770, not just a gpu water block.

[tool_462]

3/8 ID - 5/8 OD just means 3/8" inner diameter & 5/8" outer diameter. So the thickness of the wall is 2/8" (1/4") but there are thinner walled and thicker walled options. Inner diameter is obviously the only factor in terms of flowrate and both 1/2" ID and 3/8" ID will perform great.

Lately I've come to prefer Primochill Advanced LRT (low radius turn) tubing and any size or thickness will be great for you I'm sure. The only factor you have to consider with wall thickness is for using some types of compression fittings (expensive, just for looks) that won't fit over thick walled options.


Pump:

Swiftech MCP-655
Koolance PMP-450
Alphacool VPP655
Danger Den D5
aka:
Laing D5 is the same pump, built by Laing and are extremely reliable. I have at least 2 with over 6 years of run time (one of them nearly 24/7) and they hum along beautifully. The RPM option is just a 3-pin fan wire that will report to the motherboard and you monitor as a "fan" but personally I find it unimportant. You can get a PWM control pump to run off of a fan header (powered by a 4 pin molex still) to adjust the speed of the pump with software or in the BIOS using a "fan profile" based on temperature, OR you can get the regular speed control variants that you use the physical knob on the pump itself to set the speed.

The pumps are so quiet that you really don't need a fancy control setup, the D5 (in all variants, regardless of who put their sticker on it) will power your average loop at speed 2 or 3 and will definitely not be audible above your fans once the loop has bled completely.


As far as full cover blocks go, they are going to be expensive no matter what, the EK is a great choice. They are more expensive because they are designed and machined specifically for each new card that comes out so the cost of making them is higher. I always go full cover in any rig that I plan to use for a fair amount of time before upgrading or changing GPUs since the blocks don't hold their value very well at all.

[tool_462]

Like I said, I have trouble learning that way. Throwing reading material or a book at me is the worst thing you can do. I have ADD. It really messes up my ability to "dig in", like you said. When I take any kind of classes, I usually need a tutor to help me with that. Plus I'm getting off of lexapro right now because of serious acid reflux side effects, and it has a month recovery time for the withdrawal effects. Its making me really loopy which further kills any chance of me being able to "dig in" and study anything.

Guides are great starting points but we all prefer direct answers to our specific questions! It isn't like we are getting spammed with questions here, so there are plenty of us willing to help.

How does that work exactly? How does the software interact with the pump? A USB connection?

Via a PWM fan header, the actual voltage is supplied by a molex connector though.

You mean when they shut down if they get too hot? Isn't it sometimes too late by then?

He means that water has a much higher heat capacity than air, so with water you see MUCH less temperature swing and it takes a very long time to actually heat the fluid up enough to start seeing your max temperatures climb to equilibrium.

3/4 is larger than 1/2.... so doesn't that make it more of an overkill?

I believe he typo'd 3/4 instead of 3/8". 3/8" and 1/2" Inner Diameter are the two common tubing sizes and both perform equally, or close enough not to matter in 99% of loops.

Are you sure? It seems awfully roomy to me. Have you worked with them before?

You can build a water setup in any case really, personally I would go with something that is "watercooling ready" and has room in front or up top for a radiator and pump without modding.

I don't really know what my budget is, cause I'm slowly gathering money as I go along. I posted lots of information about the case, click on the links. I don't know what the level of noise desired is because I've never used a pump and I have no idea what to compare it to. Its not like you're here to say that the neighbor mowing his lawn two houses down with my windows closed is about the right noise level for ______. I don't know how to answer that question.

Water is quiet, the pumps are quiet and your fans should be on some sort of controller and you can tune to your own liking.

Elements? And I'm going with Deltas.

Not sure what Elements are. Which Delta fans are you using? I might talk you out of them for a basic, normal beginners loop.

My thoughts in BLUE.

[Makymaco]

I'm french so i'm not familair with 3/4 and 3/8 ...
What i mean is : 10 mm internal diameter is the right size.
13mm internal diameter / 19mm outer diameter is too big when you have to make tight turns and take a lot of place (the performance gain is negligible)

My approach to watercolling is to fit all the components IN the case so a ps06 is too small for that.
I don't like builds where all the components are so tighly fited that it is very difficult to put on a cable, empty the circuit, ...

And there is not a lot of case which remains practical after watercooling AND WITHOUT MODDING, the components take a lot of space.

Delta fans are not known to be silent so if you don't mind loud builds the radiator area is not that critical.

If the noise is not an issue, and you don't want to overclock a lot, watercolling is not needed, i think air cooling will do it

The advantage of watercooling is to be able to cool down oveclocked components with a quiet computer.

Me for example : my cpu is overclocked to 4.5 Ghz, the ambient temp is 33 degrees celsius and i barely hear my computer (a low murmur)

How does that work exactly? How does the software interact with the pump? A USB connection?

The pump is connected to a fan header on the motherboard comunicating only the rpm signal (the speed of the pump)
The software reads the rpm signal and if it is 0, it can trigger an amergency shutdown
You can also do it checking the cpu temperature, if it is too hot, you shutdown the computer.
CPU and gpu have thermal protection preventing them to be damaged.
The water in the loop have thermal inertia so it takes time to heat up, it will be sufficient to shutdown your computer

The best solution remains to have 2 pumps

[Makymaco]

If, today, i had to make a build from scratch :
corsair 900d (the entoo primo is also a promising case)
2 x 480 rads (ut45 or st30 in the top and ut60 in the bottom)
8 quiet fans @ 600 rpm : Scythe Gentle Typhoon, noise blocker m12 s2,
2 x d5 pumps
the reservoir of your choice, if you need bays, take a cylinder
an aquaero pro (i love to be able to control fans from windows)
some led lights to illuminate the computer to be able to see your beautiful watercooling by the window

Build easy to make and without modding.

PS : you don't want a very big rad in the top so you can easily access the cables on the top edge of the motherboard.

[Judaeus Apella]

I never use anything but deltas. I buy different models that run at different RPMs, and have a nice new controller for them. I love it and talk about it later, it has a bunch of features so maybe I can use it with this water cooling set up. Its supposed to be able to control LEDs as well.

Also look at my OP and take a good look at what I said in all my comments about my tower, cause it is made for water cooling. I think its just a smaller than average case for water cooling. Its still rather a decently sized case. There's going to be PLENTY of room in there when I'm done putting in the standard components...... wow the rain is loud on my roof right now. Anyway, I'm kinda pissed right now cause I found a couple scratches on the right side of the case. It wasn't originally mine. My parents bought it for a computer they were going to have me build for them a while back but kept stalling the project then decided to go with a laptop which I think they're going to get sometime this year. Anyway, it doesn't look like they did a very good job of keeping it safe from damage. If I can't find a way to repair the scratches I might not keep it.... unless you guys know of a way. I'm not going to invest time and money into a repairing project. Maybe there's a way to just fix the scratches without repainting? Maybe rubbing compound like what you use on a car? I fixed my previous vehicle doing that, but this is obviously going to be a different kind of paint. Does it matter or will rubbing compound work?

Well I'm going to bed, I just woke up and going back to bed in a couple minutes. I'll respond to everything else and the other posts tomorrow.

[bds71]

if you absolutely want to go all-in and do a fully custom set-up, you're on the right track - keep asking questions. but, my humble suggestion is this: buy a kit. swiftech has a nice 220 kit that will keep everything you want to cool, nice and cool. you won't get great OC's, but you said yourself your not looking to get crazy. the reason i recommend this is as follows: it gives you everything you need to do your first build in one package. you still have to assemble the kit and everything else (same as a custom kit), but you get what you "need." use this as a learning experience. though you learn from talking to others, i assume you learn even better by *doing* (hands-on). the kit should come with instructions and diagrams and will give you a good foundation to build on. then (once the kit is assembled, and you are confident with what you're doing) start changing out the parts (maybe a better pump, or a bigger (or second) rad, things like that. before you know it you'll have a fully custom loop and all the experience you could want, and you can upgrade as slow or fast as your finances allow

just my 2c.

[Makymaco]

if you absolutely want to go all-in and do a fully custom set-up, you're on the right track - keep asking questions. but, my humble suggestion is this: buy a kit. swiftech has a nice 220 kit that will keep everything you want to cool, nice and cool. you won't get great OC's, but you said yourself your not looking to get crazy. the reason i recommend this is as follows: it gives you everything you need to do your first build in one package. you still have to assemble the kit and everything else (same as a custom kit), but you get what you "need." use this as a learning experience. though you learn from talking to others, i assume you learn even better by *doing* (hands-on). the kit should come with instructions and diagrams and will give you a good foundation to build on. then (once the kit is assembled, and you are confident with what you're doing) start changing out the parts (maybe a better pump, or a bigger (or second) rad, things like that. before you know it you'll have a fully custom loop and all the experience you could want, and you can upgrade as slow or fast as your finances allow

just my 2c.

+1

Or buy a descent air cooler

[Judaeus Apella]

Nah, I really want to do it right and do it my self. I've been building and repairing computers for years and I'm pretty sure I can handle it. Thanks for your concern though, but I really do want to do it right and pick out the parts my self, using the communities advice of course.

But first I need people to take a closer look at the information I posted about my tower. PLEASE look at it. It's obvious its for a water cooling set up. It even has holes for tubes in the back. I posted lots of information! I'm going to wait until someone looks at this stuff and starts commenting on the tower info, before responding myself too much, cause I feel like I'm talking to a wall. That information is very important to the build.

Also, fixing the scratches on that tower are very important. Spending money on another tower will take money out of what I wanted to spend on everything else. So I'd like to try hard to fix it, but at the same time I don't want to make a project out of repainting it and spending money on paint.

NM, I just read that a buffer and some 3M compound works on enamel paint. My step dad has been bugging me to help him remove from scratches from his Toyota's trunk, so I'll kill two birds with one stone.

[Sparky]

Thanks!

What I was talking about, is if I don't screw up and the pump fails because it was defective, and as a result damages my system. Are their any manufacturers who take responsibility for any damage their products cause, through the warranty?

It makes me so sad this place seems to be dying slowly. Six years ago, this topic probably would have gotten a bunch of replies by now. Man 200 views and just 1 reply. I really wanted to work on this project with the community.... but I think that might not happen.

Not sure if anyone responded to this (skimmed, didn't see it) but no. The maker of the pump warranties their pump only, and won't cover any consequential damages caused by their part failure. It is a risk we all take.

I hear you on the last part tho. This was very busy in here for a long time but it has slowed quite a bit. Actually, the entire forums have slowed down

[Judaeus Apella]

Not sure if anyone responded to this (skimmed, didn't see it) but no. The maker of the pump warranties their pump only, and won't cover any consequential damages caused by their part failure. It is a risk we all take.

I hear you on the last part tho. This was very busy in here for a long time but it has slowed quite a bit. Actually, the entire forums have slowed down

Thanks for letting me know that! I'll just have to take every precaution and make sure my system is protected against a pump failure.

And yeah it really stinks how much the forums have slowed down. Its like a lake that just keeps getting lower and lover every year and you don't start panicking until you notice the docks aren't touching the water anymore and all the boats are leaning on their sides in the mud. Then the news shows up and people care for about a week like its some kind of fad... then everyone forgets about it and after a little bit longer you watch the lake dry up completely and everyone moves away. Sad....

[Conumdrum]

You can use OC Forums. We have a busy WC forum. Yea, hate to see this place slow down. Peeps move on............

[Judaeus Apella]

I think I'll use both this forum and that one, I already signed up. Feels slower here but I know there's some really seasoned vets, so I do value their advice on the important things a lot. I guess I'll bug OC with the more trivial crap so you old geezers can take your naps.

[Judaeus Apella]

Okay, so update. I want to use a Silverstone TJ07, because I like that nice separate area, and how easy it is to jimmy a radiator into there. All I need to do is get a bracket or mount it to the bottom plate and space it up with washers or a metal tube cut to length. Easy. So If anyone knows where I could get a bracket, I wouldn't have to make custom parts. Anyone know where to get it?

Also, if I want to cool the ENTIRE card not just the gpu. Is a 3x 120mm radiator big enough for 1 CPU and 1 video card? This isn't a crazy build, I don't have the money for a stack of video cards.

[Conumdrum]

Well. You decided to WC on 09/02/13. How much have you done on research? Spend a few hours on top notch WC forums (this one is good but VERY VERY slow)?

Read all the stickies you have the time for? Have a good concept? Understand the basics?

Two posts. Rest is up to you. You seem to have no clue about heat load, flow rates, fannage yet. It matters.

Here you go. You are him on the first post. Read the thanks, it is what many have started with. NO SHORTCUTS about knowledge.
I spent 3 months reading and learning about WC before I bought one part. Been golden ever since. WC is a hobby, not a goal.

http://www.overclockers.com/forums/s...96&postcount=3
http://www.overclockers.com/forums/s...d.php?t=628092

We can talk in a few weeks once you learn. You can make mistakes, spend too much money, or possibly ruin a $80 pump or smoke a GPU. Your prep and tolerance to ruining parts makes a diff here. I too it slowwwww, you can too.

[Judaeus Apella]

I'll give your links a look, but problem is I'm not the kind of person you can just throw a bunch of books at and tell me to learn. My brain isn't wired to function that way, I have ADD. Reading endless amounts of information shuts down my brain and makes me sleepy. Its because its a sterile way of learning that doesn't involve any interaction or stimulation. I learn far better by talking and texting back and forth to people (either with time given to take notes or a note taker assigned or hired by me), talking to people in forums (who aren't long winded ), and physical interaction with things I can pick up (which is why I tend to be more interested in hardware and mechanical things, instead of software). I'm also not that great as an auditory learner.

My entire life I've had to hire tutors who can help me break down long winded text books into short concise notes cause I can't learn from them, they instantly put me to sleep. The world revolves around those who can learn by reading a bunch of books, and the hell with people with me who can't learn that way. It really really sucks... I've been dealing with it my entire life, and a lot of people have actually told me they don't believe in it... like its the easy bunny or something.

So throwing a bunch of guides at me is usually the worst thing someone can do to me. None of the guides I've seen on this topic are short and concise or even up to date. The most current one I found is from 2 years ago and they don't even make half the parts it suggests as the best. Maybe you can think of a way for me to learn about this?