AMD finally fixing frame rate latency problem

[Sushi Warrior]

Well said.

Also, June/July for a beta that doesn't even actually "fix" it to NVidia's level per the preview benches we've seen... so 1-2 months at least (they could do mid-late July and it'd be closer to three!) *more* after years of issues, and people are defending it... wow.

I would like to put you in front of a double blind test between a comparable CF and SLI setup with identical framerates and see you point out the AMD setup. That's what I do all day long and I can't see the difference. Worst microstutter I've ever seen was on a pair of 690's...

[BababooeyHTJ]

I would like to put you in front of a double blind test between a comparable CF and SLI setup with identical framerates and see you point out the AMD setup. That's what I do all day long and I can't see the difference. Worst microstutter I've ever seen was on a pair of 690's...

I've used both 7950 crossfire and GTX680 sli pretty extensively and I can tell you right now that microstutter is clearly far worse on the 7950s. There are quite a few games that I found to be unacceptable on the 7950s without a hard framerate cap. Its clearly there and there is clearly a difference. So far with my 680s I've noticed microstutter in one game and I'm pretty sure thats since the cards were going back and fourth between 3d and 2d clocks, I didn't need sli in that game anyways. If it weren't for a hard cap I wouldn't have kept my 7950s for much more than a couple of weeks.

Maybe you're just one of those people who somehow don't notice microstutter.

A lot of people somehow don't notice the Gamebyro stutter that I think is just blatant.

[Sushi Warrior]

I've used both 7950 crossfire and GTX680 sli pretty extensively and I can tell you right now that microstutter is clearly far worse on the 7950s. There are quite a few games that I found to be unacceptable on the 7950s without a hard framerate cap.

Maybe you're just one of those people who somehow don't notice microstutter.

I don't tend to notice it really, it depends on what framerate the game is running at. Anything above 60 and I rarely notice anything. Below that, and it looks choppy to begin with, regardless of microstutter IMO. I just doubt people like GoldenTiger have actually used both setups. People like that look at numbers in reviews, think OMG IT MUST BE THE WORST EVER, yet don't even have the ability to pick the two apart.

[BababooeyHTJ]

I don't tend to notice it really, it depends on what framerate the game is running at. Anything above 60 and I rarely notice anything. Below that, and it looks choppy to begin with, regardless of microstutter IMO. I just doubt people like GoldenTiger have actually used both setups. People like that look at numbers in reviews, think OMG IT MUST BE THE WORST EVER, yet don't even have the ability to pick the two apart.

I've noticed it in games well over 60fps. Its actually why I sold my 7950s. With a 60hz display I didn't find it to be an issue since I could use something like radeon pro to set up a cap. 7950 crossfire is a lot of power for the money. It runs most games over 60fps at 1440p. Once I picked up a 120hz 1440p display it became an issue.

Like I've said in this thread before its not every game but enough. There are definitely issues with frame timing. Its something that they've needed to address. Its why I sold my 4870x2 and kept a single GTX280. I noticed it on 6950 crossfire.

You are right that no one ever talked about this before.

after years of issues, and people are defending it... wow.

Nvidia only fixed this recently after years of the same issue.

I've also never seen you mention microstutter before.

[GoldenTiger]

Nvidia only fixed this recently after years of the same issue.

I've also never seen you mention microstutter before.

I've mentioned it many, many times, your google-fu seems lacking then. And, NVidia has had it fixed for a very long time now, AMD continues to promise "but but but we'll have it... 'fixed', soon! soon(tm)!!!!", it will be another month or two at least and won't from the looks of it even really fix it just improve it some. *shrug* Go on ahead and keep paying for promises and wishes on products, I'll be enjoying my stuff all the same.

[Olivon]

I would like to put you in front of a double blind test between a comparable CF and SLI setup with identical framerates and see you point out the AMD setup. That's what I do all day long and I can't see the difference. Worst microstutter I've ever seen was on a pair of 690's...

So AMD spends a lot of ressources about a non-existing problem and XFire is doing good contrary to what reviewers says ?
Man ... Have a break !

[Sushi Warrior]

I've mentioned it many, many times, your google-fu seems lacking then. And, NVidia has had it fixed for a very long time now, AMD continues to promise "but but but we'll have it... 'fixed', soon! soon(tm)!!!!", it will be another month or two at least and won't from the looks of it even really fix it just improve it some. *shrug* Go on ahead and keep paying for promises and wishes on products, I'll be enjoying my stuff all the same.

Just did a search for Cross fire and stutter and found nothing under your name :P I'd love for you to explain how you have known about this for years and have been mentioning it!

They gave a specific deadline and as far as I've seen haven't broken that deadline. I don't think this is "soon(tm)", I think this is "It involves a total overhaul of how our drivers work to change this(tm)". I don't own an AMD card but if I did I would be paying for the most FPS/$ and laughing at you for avoiding it just because numbers you can't qualitatively confirm are making your decision for you!

So AMD spends a lot of ressources about a non-existing problem and XFire is doing good contrary to what reviewers says ?
Man ... Have a break !

AMD is spending a lot of resources on a problem that exists, but few people notice in practice, and they can't avoid because "Oooh look FCAT says it is bad" or something along those lines. It has been blown out of proportion. Yes, a fix would be excellent, because some people can tell the difference (I have no doubt some people can. Just not every single person). Reviewers want to have an interesting story and FCAT and frame times make them look much more savvy and have a much more interesting review than the alternative.

[cadaveca]

Just did a search for Cross fire and stutter and found nothing under your name :P I'd love for you to explain how you have known about this for years and have been mentioning it!

That because it was someone else doing the problem reporting.


:p

That doesn't mean he didn't post in those threads 6 to 7 years ago when this whole conversation really began. I know he did...because I was doing a lot of complaining about it.



This whole topic is really years old. It's kinda boring to see people argue about it now, nearly a decade later.

AMD is spending a lot of resources on a problem that exists, but few people notice in practice.

Basically. It's just now that performance is at a level where it's become an issue that more people notice. Yippie! I've had a video of it on my youtube page for like 6 years.

[Olivon]

7970 -> Too near from GTX580, prices too high
7970 GHz -> Noise, heat
7990 -> Crappy drivers, late card but not late enough

[Ket]

..... Adding perspective to this flamefest, I have a 7950, sometimes the frames judder in games like ME3 due to constant switching between the 3D world and the galaxy map, even exiting the game then starting it up again doesn't fix the problem I have to do a full system restart. HOWEVER, I also experienced this with my GTX460 until I modded the vBIOS and had the card running 3D clocks constantly unless on the desktop. Point is, both companies suffer with micro-stutter, neither are saints and both fix problems as and when they have a viable fix. Right now as much as it pisses me off not being able to vBIOS mod my 7950 I would _probably_ still choose it over a GTX670. In the UK the 7950 is significantly cheaper than the GTX670 AND performs better in most cases. No brainer.

[Sushi Warrior]

..... Adding perspective to this flamefest, I have a 7950, sometimes the frames judder in games like ME3 due to constant switching between the 3D world and the galaxy map, even exiting the game then starting it up again doesn't fix the problem I have to do a full system restart. HOWEVER, I also experienced this with my GTX460 until I modded the vBIOS and had the card running 3D clocks constantly unless on the desktop. Point is, both companies suffer with micro-stutter, neither are saints and both fix problems as and when they have a viable fix. Right now as much as it pisses me off not being able to vBIOS mod my 7950 I would _probably_ still choose it over a GTX670. In the UK the 7950 is significantly cheaper than the GTX670 AND performs better in most cases. No brainer.

Any "microstutter" (which is the issue at hand) should only be noticeable on crossfire configs :P Single cards shouldn't have the type of stutter that is being reported and reviewed about. Sounds like a mass effect problem more than a GPU problem too.

And don't forget, 6 (is it 7 now?) free games adds quite a bit of value!

[DefStar]

I bought a 7950 so I would not have to deal with multi-gpu latency issues. That said, I'm pretty sure amd delivers the best single-gpu price/performance ratio. In case you all forgot...amd gpu are intentionally made cheaper to be cheaper. For a single gpu setup below $500....which entails about 98.9999% of us. AMD is the go to cards. Now, Titan should have been the new $600 (700 on release) card...it should have set the example. But, Nvidia are conceded and arrogant. Titan being at $1k, does not motivate AMD to work any faster because they know 99.9999% of people will never pay $1k for a single gpu card....... especially now that crossfire and sli frame latency is getting fixed... .Seriously, think about it....If multi-gpu frame latency issues are resolved...then why not get a multi gpu setup.

I believe Titan is a martyr, it came, it kicked ass, and it will soon die for our multi-gpu sins. Don't take this out of context...I'm saying that if there is no more micro-stutter....crossfire and sli will finally be solidified, it will finally be awesome enough where you can take two mid-range cards and kick the high-end cards ass with-out any side effects.........THIS IS WHAT'S FINALLY HAPPENING WITH THIS FRAME LATENCY FIX. Am I right or what?

[Rollo]

I bought two 7970s because a. they were/are the best deal I've ever gotten in high end cards (and that goes back to VESA days) b. I wanted to try Crossfire. I really "wanted" the 7970s to succeed. They have 50% more VRAM than my 680s, and I only have 25X16 monitors.

After using 3DFX SLi and NVIDIA SLi for many, many years I can say CFx feels very much like a "work in progress". Which it SHOULDN'T, because it's been around a very long time.

There is an easily noticeable "out of box" difference in experience with SLi and CFx. I pretty much used SLi as I would a single card, but CFx needs add ons, settings, driver revision XYZ and at the end of the day it's still flakier than SLi from what I could tell.

For a lot of years I bought AMD only on principle of competition and I liked looking up fixes, workarounds, and patches. (and telling skeptics, "No way! With the latest 3DNow! drivers I run Quake almost as fast as I would with a Pentium!".

Now I have a career, family, properties to tend, and other stuff. I want plug and play now, and this is where CFx falls short. (along with frame delivery)

Anytime I'm resolving I'm not playing, and I just don't have that much time to spare anymore. People's concerns about CFx are valid, not overblown. OTOH single cards by AMD are the best value now. It's not the "worst" position to be in, not many multi GPU gamers.

[Lanek]

7970 -> Too near from GTX580, prices too high
7970 GHz -> Noise, heat
7990 -> Crappy drivers, late card but not late enough

Why will you they do it when they come with Volcanic island in less of 6months.. maybe that now Nvidia will launch 680 overclocked they will move a bit, but seriously i dont think they will do it.

- 7970 .. too close of the 580 ? lol seriously .. so what is the 670 - 680.. ( maybe on launch, but now its not really the same, whatever it is due to new games or drivers. )
- 7970ghz, heat and noise ? i suggest you to try find a reference cooler Ghz edition in the market, only reviewers have got a Ghz edition with a reference cooler. (hoo im sure with a bit of luck you can maybe find one somewhere, but i have do all the shops i know and cant find one )
Newegg dont have any one with it on the Ghz, they are all using non reference cooler ( the only one are the old 7970 reference cards ) http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...x=0&y=0&Page=1

[GoldenTiger]

I don't tend to notice it really, it depends on what framerate the game is running at. Anything above 60 and I rarely notice anything. Below that, and it looks choppy to begin with, regardless of microstutter IMO. I just doubt people like GoldenTiger have actually used both setups. People like that look at numbers in reviews, think OMG IT MUST BE THE WORST EVER, yet don't even have the ability to pick the two apart.

Ah, I didn't see this gem... but yes, I have owned plenty of both types (crossfire/sli) . And indeed, I do notice....

Just did a search for Cross fire and stutter and found nothing under your name :P I'd love for you to explain how you have known about this for years and have been mentioning it!
.

:p

That doesn't mean he didn't post in those threads 6 to 7 years ago when this whole conversation really began. I know he did...because I was doing a lot of complaining about it.



This whole topic is really years old. It's kinda boring to see people argue about it now, nearly a decade later.


Basically. It's just now that performance is at a level where it's become an issue that more people notice. Yippie! I've had a video of it on my youtube page for like 6 years.

Yep, I used to post years ago about it... a simple google search for something like "goldentiger microstutter" would probably bring it up pretty readily. Heck, I know I had posted even on this forum a small amount.

EDIT: In fact, here, I'll even do it for the lazy... :

http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=...66&postcount=4

June 2008 post where I explain to someone what microstuttering is.

It's inconsistency in the timing of frames from each card, resulting in "clumping" of the frames rendered, mainly caused by incorrectly divided workload due to how AFR works and its prediction model. So, if you're getting 100FPS on a single card, they'll be spaced about 10ms apart every time consistently. If you're getting 100FPS on a dual-card setup, you'll see frames at say 1ms into the second, three at 8ms, then no frame until 21ms, and then one at 22ms and 23ms, until the next one arrives at 31ms then 40ms then four at 45ms... when they occur within a millisecond or so of eachother it's too quick to help contribute to fluid motion. You might see the equivalent of 30FPS at times or 70FPS, resulting in a juttery experience and losing many of the gained frames, which while technically rendered, did you no good in actual gameplay. In addition, driver issues plague many multi-card setups, and scaling isn't double, it's more like 30% to 70% in the best cases.

[BababooeyHTJ]

So, you explained to some noob what microstutter is. What does that say to me? I've never seen you personally complain about any of your experiences with microstutter. Not even in these recent AMD threads.

I've mentioned it many, many times, your google-fu seems lacking then. And, NVidia has had it fixed for a very long time now, AMD continues to promise "but but but we'll have it... 'fixed', soon! soon(tm)!!!!", it will be another month or two at least and won't from the looks of it even really fix it just improve it some. *shrug* Go on ahead and keep paying for promises and wishes on products, I'll be enjoying my stuff all the same.

Even in the recent AMD threads you've been complaining about everything but microstutter. Which sort of comes off like off topic trolling. Even this very post comes off that way.

You do realize that Nvidia only fixed microstutter with Kepler, right? I saw it with fermi. Techreport's reviews show it too. I guess that was "a long time ago".

There is an easily noticeable "out of box" difference in experience with SLi and CFx. I pretty much used SLi as I would a single card, but CFx needs add ons, settings, driver revision XYZ and at the end of the day it's still flakier than SLi from what I could tell.

What are you talking about? I used tri-fire for months and scaling was great. I don't know what add ons you need. Are you talking about Radeon pro? So what? I use nvidia inspector to get the most from my GTX680s too.

I don't see what problems you're talking about. Most games work just fine out of the box. In the games that do have microstutter issues you can just enable a cap with something like afterburner which I use all of the time anyways or just set up a simple profile with radeon pro. You're blowing things way the hell out of proportion.

You two could post your opinions with a less biased slant.

[cadaveca]

What are you talking about? I used tri-fire for months and scaling was great. I don't know what add ons you need. Are you talking about Radeon pro? So what? I use nvidia inspector to get the most from my GTX680s too.

I don't see what problems you're talking about. Most games work just fine out of the box. In the games that do have microstutter issues you can just enable a cap with something like afterburner which I use all of the time anyways or just set up a simple profile with radeon pro. You're blowing things way the hell out of proportion.

You two could post your opinions with a less biased slant.

Well, now I'll ignore all of your posts, because you're a liar. I have run four GPUs since 3870x2. There has been problems with triple and quad scaling since then. I now run these:





And they work like . Worse than a single card, both in FPS, and in actual usage.


Maybe you should start seeking the truth, not to say that Golden Tiger is any better, because I agree on your summary of his postings. But you are quite obviously no better.


And since I do motherboard reviews, I know 1000000% this isn't some configuration problem, or bottleneck, or whatever. Current AMD drivers suck big-time. You are more than welcome to come over to my house, grab any of the like 40 boards I have here, any CPU(I have about 20), and any ram kit(from 1333 MHz to 2666MHz sticks), build a rig with my hardware, here in my house, and prove me wrong. I've got multiple PSUs, cases, monitors...everything....



And I know you won't succeed, since Crossfire is bloody broken...and AMD admits that it is as well. Nah, AMD just says there are issues to keep some user happy. They don't care about sales.

[Rollo]

What are you talking about? I used tri-fire for months and scaling was great. I don't know what add ons you need. Are you talking about Radeon pro? So what? I use nvidia inspector to get the most from my GTX680s too.

I don't see what problems you're talking about. Most games work just fine out of the box. In the games that do have microstutter issues you can just enable a cap with something like afterburner which I use all of the time anyways or just set up a simple profile with radeon pro. You're blowing things way the hell out of proportion.

You two could post your opinions with a less biased slant.

Dude, I'm old now, get annoyed more easily. I don't want to download Radeon Pro and do settings for games. I don't want to wait for patches and profiles.

I like using Adaptive Vsynch. The 7970s just felt less smooth to me, and the odd occurrences of random textures flashing in a few games took me waaaaaaaaayyy back to my beloved ATi Rage Fury MAXX- the grand daddy of modern dual GPU cards.

[GoldenTiger]

Maybe you should start seeking the truth, not to say that Golden Tiger is any better, because I agree on your summary of his postings. But you are quite obviously no better.

And I know you won't succeed, since Crossfire is bloody broken...and AMD admits that it is as well. Nah, AMD just says there are issues to keep some user happy. They don't care about sales.

A decade ago I was an AMD fanboy.... since then their cards have gone downhill steadily, and now I am more towards being an NVidia fanboy than anything else. I go with what works and works well + offers the most features... right now that's NVidia. If NVidia slips down the stairs in a few years, I'm sure I'll be back to being accused of being an AMD fanboy just as I used to be constantly . Babooey is extremely slanted to the point of not even understanding the argument.... I understand it, I just disagree.

There's a distinction between being a fanboy, and simply preferring one brand's products... and people don't seem to be able to comprehend that in this day and age.

[cadaveca]

A decade ago I was an AMD fanboy.... since then their cards have gone downhill steadily, and now I am more towards being an NVidia fanboy than anything else. I go with what works and works well + offers the most features... right now that's NVidia. If NVidia slips down the stairs in a few years, I'm sure I'll be back to being accused of being an AMD fanboy just as I used to be constantly . Babooey is extremely slanted to the point of not even understanding the argument.... I understand it, I just disagree.

Well, after talking with my doctor, I cannot ignore that this is an issue that many users simply will not be capable of seeing. Just like how users will post about reaction times = what the human eye can perceive, ignoreing that in reaction-time testing, the brain has already responded to the stimulus, making the test subject push the button...but these users will interpret the data to mean that reaction time=perceptive ability.


So I expect many users to report they don't see any issues.


However, when it comes to tri-fire and scaling, just watching usage graphs and power drawn says that it's broken. Things were relatively good until the 12.4 driver, when they changed the driver core, and then got worse with the 13.1 beta.


The biggest thing I see that users have yet to mention is that flicker induced by cards not rendering in sync can lead to just a single portion of the screen appearing funky...where there is fast motion. You can see this simply with the new 3DMark, and the second set of tests. background "flames" or whatever are out of sync, but the rest of the image on the screen is fine.

It's a real problem, and I can even track back and show you how AMD justified writing drivers this way. They ran numerous polls on their website for what people wanted....quality or speed...and speed was the unanimous answer. so now we have fast GPUs, with crap rendering quality. Add in to that a study from many years ago that said gamers don't mind minor artifacting, and you've got the situation as it is now.

[GoldenTiger]

Well, after talking with my doctor, I cannot ignore that this is an issue that many users simply will not be capable of seeing. Just like how users will post about reaction times = what the human eye can perceive, ignoreing that in reaction-time testing, the brain has already responded to the stimulus, making the test subject push the button...but these users will interpret the data to mean that reaction time=perceptive ability.


So I expect many users to report they don't see any issues.


However, when it comes to tri-fire and scaling, just watching usage graphs and power drawn says that it's broken. Things were relatively good until the 12.4 driver, when they changed the driver core, and then got worse with the 13.1 beta.


The biggest thing I see that users have yet to mention is that flicker induced by cards not rendering in sync can lead to just a single portion of the screen appearing funky...where there is fast motion. You can see this simply with the new 3DMark, and the second set of tests. background "flames" or whatever are out of sync, but the rest of the image on the screen is fine.

It's a real problem, and I can even track back and show you how AMD justified writing drivers this way. They ran numerous polls on their website for what people wanted....quality or speed...and speed was the unanimous answer. so now we have fast GPUs, with crap rendering quality. Add in to that a study from many years ago that said gamers don't mind minor artifacting, and you've got the situation as it is now.

Good post, lots of good points in there. Just to touch on one in particular... many people indeed don't exactly know that they're talking about, and unfortunately on forums people either tend to A) not realize that and spread misinformation, or B) realize they might have been wrong about something a little later, and then change positions taking the new info into account, but then get flamed to cinders for "flip-flopping".

I think there's been a general drain in knowledgeable people on most of the major tech forums for years now due to, partially, burnout from flame wars and general manners. I know I for one used to put a lot of effort into writing in-depth posts many moons ago, but over time got exhausted from the atmosphere of these places and just toned down to using them as a discussion sounding board at most. I don't profess to know everything, and virtually no one does... but say that, and people immediately disregard your thoughts.

EDIT: One more point I'll touch on quickly... Many say they want X, but once they get X they realize they really wanted Y... user feedback is useful but unreliable in a lot of cases. It's hard to judge, so I can hardly blame AMD for going with their feedback, but it should have (although hindsight's always 20/20 and you never know on what-if's) probably been tempered more with quality-oriented judgement. At the end of the day, gamers want a good overall experience, and that's both a combo of quality and speed, not one or the other alone.

[Rollo]

The biggest thing I see that users have yet to mention is that flicker induced by cards not rendering in sync can lead to just a single portion of the screen appearing funky...where there is fast motion. You can see this simply with the new 3DMark, and the second set of tests. background "flames" or whatever are out of sync, but the rest of the image on the screen is fine.

It's a real problem, and I can even track back and show you how AMD justified writing drivers this way. They ran numerous polls on their website for what people wanted....quality or speed...and speed was the unanimous answer. so now we have fast GPUs, with crap rendering quality. Add in to that a study from many years ago that said gamers don't mind minor artifacting, and you've got the situation as it is now.

You could we be right.

Until very recently, review just gave us charts of average fps.

I'd bet good $ that AMD made a choice toward less quality/uneven delivery in an effort to make their cards seem better than they were.

Which is pretty dumb IMO because I think their chips are pretty good, they should have invested in IQ and delivery.

[GoldenTiger]

You could we be right.

Until very recently, review just gave us charts of average fps.

I'd bet good $ that AMD made a choice toward less quality/uneven delivery in an effort to make their cards seem better than they were.

Which is pretty dumb IMO because I think their chips are pretty good, they should have invested in IQ and delivery.

Yeah, most reviews (though some did include minimum/maximum which I always preferred) did that. I'd take that bet as far as quality/frame delivery, though to be fair NVidia has done some pretty shifty "alterations" in the past as well (3dmark03 for example), as has AMD (who else remembers QUACK3.exe?). Both were (and should be) called out on, as should all current ones such as the contemporary frametime delivery.

Sources: http://techreport.com/review/5226/fu...s-for-3dmark03, http://www.hardocp.com/reviews/vidcards/ati/8500/quack/ .

[Sushi Warrior]

And I know you won't succeed, since Crossfire is bloody broken...and AMD admits that it is as well. Nah, AMD just says there are issues to keep some user happy. They don't care about sales.

Which cards are those? I can quote you some figures right now that show some excellent multi card scaling, all with recent drivers. Even 7990's in CF are getting good scaling now. Just played Crysis 3 in 4K on ultra with CF 7990's. With a single card, I was getting 15FPS. With 2, I was well into the playable range (35-40FPS).

Yeah, most reviews (though some did include minimum/maximum which I always preferred) did that. I'd take that bet as far as quality/frame delivery, though to be fair NVidia has done some pretty shifty "alterations" in the past as well (3dmark03 for example), as has AMD (who else remembers QUACK3.exe?). Both were (and should be) called out on, as should all current ones such as the contemporary frametime delivery.

Sources: http://techreport.com/review/5226/fu...s-for-3dmark03, http://www.hardocp.com/reviews/vidcards/ati/8500/quack/ .

Just remember though, microstutter was WORSE in the past. And did anyone ever mention it in any reviews? Not really, at least not very often (if ever). It's only now that the tools to measure it have gotten better that people have started to think that it is a problem. This is why I think it is more often a quantitative issue rather than a qualitative issue. Reviewers would have been tearing their eyes out years ago given how bad it was if it was actually a visible issue to everyone, yet only now once they have FCAT testing do they actually make a big deal out of it.

[Olivon]

Which cards are those? I can quote you some figures right now that show some excellent multi card scaling, all with recent drivers. Even 7990's in CF are getting good scaling now. Just played Crysis 3 in 4K on ultra with CF 7990's. With a single card, I was getting 15FPS. With 2, I was well into the playable range (35-40FPS).

Where are 7990 QuadFire reviews ? Nowhere ...

2 possibilities :

1. QuadFire is working great and AMD is dumb enough to not show maximum supremacy
2. QuadFire is badly broken, no need to point out more massive flaws

Bonus : Sushi Warrior got 166% better frame rate adding a new card. It's a kind of magic