MSI TwinFrozr HD 7950 Experiments

[Ket]

Title says it all really, this thread specifically is for HD7950 tests and related detailed information. Mainly the thread is to report on my own findings but also to provide much more detail on the 7950 than the other thread and to answer any specific MSI 7950 questions people might be wondering about.

General Notes:

Through testing I've done so far the Catalyst 12.7 beta drivers appear to be the best. By best I'm not talking highest 3D11 scores or anything like that, but the least buggy with the most performance improvements for proper gaming. Using Afterburner to OC the MSI card to 900MHz core (no memory OC) I'm already significantly ahead in 3D11 scores compared to what I've seen reviewers getting using the new 7950 "boost" vBIOS, my score is 79xx instead of 74xx.

General Maintinence:

As I always do with any card, I've already had the cooler off and replaced the TIM as well as removed the plate cooling the memory / VRMs etc. Good job I did the latter as well, when I took the plate off one memory chip was barely being covered by the thermal pad so I repositioned that and the stuff thats peeled off before the memory pads get applied clearly hadn't been peeled off properly in the factory because part of that wrapping was stuck to the pad still, causing two of the memory chips to get very sweaty. Now thats all sorted out the card seems to run much cooler when stressing it with Unigine Heaven and load GPU temps have dropped 3c from 74 to 71 with the card clocked @ 1100 / 6300 1.125v.

MSI TwinFrozr Specifics:

First up, picture of the card.



The memory on this card is Hynix H5GQ2H24MFA T2C 148A. Default GPU voltage is 1.03v on this card and ASIC quality is 75%.

From what I can tell between this card and HD7970 pics on the web, this card looks to have a HD7970 PCB. So it should be good for flashing a HD7970 vBIOS on to. Now, theres been people concerned with putting a 7970 vBIOS on their 7950 so if it will alleviate those peoples worries heres some info to bare in mind;

1. If your 7950 is made with a 7970 PCB, you should be fine flashing a 7970 vBIOS.

2. Its safest to flash a 7970 vBIOS on to your 7950 using a vBIOS from the same manufacturer as your 7950. If you can't find a 7970 vBIOS from your manufacturer, you can try a "generic" ATI 7970 vBIOS. Failing that both the VTX3D and Sapphire HD7970 vBIOSes appear to be unlocked versions, they flashed right onto my MSI 7950 with no issues at all.

3. You will get higher default GPU and memory clocks (obviously) so check your card can handle 7970 clocks and add 50MHz to your memory speed - this is explained below.

4. Flashing to a 7970 vBIOS will give you tighter memory timings (this is why its important to check your memory can handle 7970 speeds +50MHz)

5. You will get much higher CCC / Afterburner etc limits

6. You will most likely get a higher default GPU voltage, I'm not sure exactly what this would be it probably depends on the vBIOS you flash and how high the clocks are with it. I've read the 7970 has a default GPU voltage of 1.25v, but again depending on actual clockspeeds this figure probably varies anywhere between 1.1v - 1.25v.

Early OC Results:

GPU: 1010MHz @ stock voltage
GPU: 1055MHz @ 1.075v
GPU: 1100MHz @ 1.1v

Memory: 1575MHz @ stock memory voltage

I had to flash to a Sapphire vBIOS to clock the GPU higher because of CCC limits. I tried enabling unofficial overclocking in AB but GPU and memory are read as 0MHz and trying to set speeds anyway just results in the slider going back to 0MHz. AB version is 2.2.0.3. Anybody else had this problem? Because I can't climb the GPU and memory frequencies any higher than 1100 / 6300 without flashing to a 7970 vBIOS my 3D11 score is limited to 90xx and I'm not sure why that is.. the score seems low. Unigine Heaven results though are much more promising even with "lowly" speeds of 1100 / 1575.

API: DX11
Tessellation: Normal
AF: 16x
AA: 8x
1680*1050
Score: 24xx

---------------------

API: DX11
Tessellation: Extreme
AF: 16x
AA: 8x
1680*1050
Score: 1344

Thats it for now.

[Ket]

Ok, I tried a MSI 7970 vBIOS, flash went fine but display was garbled when the driver was installed. I then tried a ATI 7970 vBIOS, the driver just wouldn't "take" with that vBIOS, I then tried a VTX3D 7970 vBIOS and all is up and running. A Sapphire 7970 vBIOS also works well.

HD7950 > HD7970 vBIOS Flash Stats:

VTX3D 7970 vBIOS

Default GPU: 1.193v
GPU CCC Limit: 1300
Mem CCC Limit: 1600
Default GPU / Mem Clocks: 1050 / 1425

Sapphire 7970 vBIOS

Default GPU: 1.174v
GPU CCC Limit: 1500
Mem CCC Limit: 1950
Default GPU / Mem Clocks: 1000 / 1450

These are the two vBIOSes I've found so far that work flawlessly on the MSI 7950 TwinFrozr. I have a Asus vBIOS to try, but I probably won't bother as its default clocks are the lowest of them all and so default GPU voltage and CCC limits aren't going to be overly great I wouldn't think.

Final OC Results:

GPU: 1155MHz @ 1.2v (1.15v actual)
Memory: 1650MHz @ 1.65v

These results were obtained with the Sapphire HD7970 vBIOS. The results aren't bad, but I feel a little short done by I can't hit 1200MHz on the GPU, even with 1.25v. Of course, this limiting factor might be down to having to use a 7970 vBIOS, as might the memory clockspeed be limited because of this. When / if a proper vBIOS editor for 7 series cards come out we can explore a lot more options. I'll look at making a vBIOS editor myself but I have other things I must do first.

Useful Links:

If you are getting infuriated by AMDs complete lack of competence to release a solid driver, I encourage everybody to use THIS LINK and give as much precise details as you can.

[madmaxx]

Interesting stuff, does your card have dual 6 pin or 6/8 pin config? Thinking it's dual 6 pin based on VRM layout... The newer 7950 tf3's (sans boost feature) are on an actual 7970 board and have 6/8 pin config... If it means anything to you?

Nice work with BIOS testing! Keep at it for us n00bz lol

[CrazyNutz]

Nice card man Have you done much gaming on it yet? If so what are your experiences?

[Ket]

Interesting stuff, does your card have dual 6 pin or 6/8 pin config? Thinking it's dual 6 pin based on VRM layout... The newer 7950 tf3's (sans boost feature) are on an actual 7970 board and have 6/8 pin config... If it means anything to you?

Nice work with BIOS testing! Keep at it for us n00bz lol

The layout of the MSI also means its suitable as a 7970 PCB, capable for 8+6 PCI-E connections and 6+6 PCI-E connections, the MSI has 6+6. The top 7950 cards to buy would seem to be the MSI TwinFrozr because of its super low voltage ability (1.03v @ 1010MHz is just crazy good), the VTX3D ( X edition uses 6+8 config and covers the odd mem chip, heatsinks appear to just be stuck on though) and the Sapphire for its twin fan cooler which is probably WAY quieter than the bloody cooler on the Frozr, anything above 60% and the Frozr fans scream like a banshee. If I knew what I do now about the Frozr before buying it I would of likely bought the Sapphire for what is probably much superior fans on it. The Frozr is still a good card I suppose though.

Nice card man Have you done much gaming on it yet? If so what are your experiences?

I haven't really done any gaming on the card yet only proper game I fired up so far is Stalker SoC as I done some more work to my TK mod for it. Even with HD textures (yeah.. I've retextured the entire game..) running more eyecandy than you ever though possible in SoC, the 7950 handled it without even so much as a sniff. TBH I'm more more impressed by the fact that once the card is OC'd it gobbles up 3DM11 and Unigine Heaven 3.0 and makes them look like easy tests to run. Currently I'm scoring 93xx in 3DM11 performance settings and about 1400 in Heaven even with all settings cranked up to maximum @ 1680*1050. Theres no doubt the card is fast, insanely fast, but what spoils it all is the lack of a vBIOS editor that alone to anyone like us is a big turn off. I don't get why AMD have been so anal about that and don't want modified clocks directly flashed to the board.

[DesertFox]

That is a very interesting write up, I'll look into flashing different bios's tonight in the hopes something will stick, it's my only hope for increasing the voltage at this point.
My only worry is that the gigabyte bios seems to be custom and with custom fan profiles, either way I'll have to test it.

The twin frozer is definitely a good card, although if I do replace mine, I think I'll just go for the 7950 OC 950M as it's not even 10 euros more here.

[Ket]

If as fast as possible clocks is your thing until a proper BIOS editor is out, you will probably like a VTX3D 7950 a lot, flash it with the vBIOS that gives you clocks of 1050 / 1425 and you have yourself a nice halfway house in the meantime

[Andi64]

Ket,

That PCB is not a HD7970 reference PCB, it's HD7950 Rev2 (If we consider Rev1 the one based on HD7970, but it never hit retail, really).

For example, this is the HD7950 PowerColor (and my XFX) PCB: http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/P...ages/front.jpg (8+6p)
And this is the HD7950 Rev1 PCB, based on HD7970 with less phases on the VRM: http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/A...ages/front.jpg (8+8p)

I guess thats why some HD7970 BIOS didn't work. Could you point me to the Sapphire BIOS you are using now? I'm trying to fix my low 3D Voltage. My ASIC quality is 84.7% and it works fine at 1200Mhz 1.2V (didn't try less) but because of the problems with my XFX BIOS that we talked about it's simply impossible to use it while overclocked...

Thanks!

[Ket]

Alright, so it looks like the PCB we have can be considered sort of a hybrid PCB, more phases (7 vs 5) but 6+6 instead of 8+6. Attached are the two 7970 vBIOSes that work on the MSI card I have. Based on a hunch, I'm going to flip the BIOS dip switch on the MSI card and verify if the second vBIOS has OC settings stored in it.

[Ket]

I just found THIS. Its a new vBIOS editor. Doesn't support desktop counterparts yet but its well worth watching and adding your own 2c to the thread if you feel like it.

[Andi64]

My cheap XFX crap doesn't have the BIOS switch, I guess they decided to save those extra cents per card...
Anyway I have a Sapphire HD5850 to boot from in case the BIOS flashing goes bad, so I can give it a try.

There is a digital signature on this BIOS, that's why there are no BIOS Editors available. The Mobile parts doesn't have the signature, as fas as I know.

[DesertFox]

If as fast as possible clocks is your thing until a proper BIOS editor is out, you will probably like a VTX3D 7950 a lot, flash it with the vBIOS that gives you clocks of 1050 / 1425 and you have yourself a nice halfway house in the meantime

Well it's been running @1075/1550 basically since I got it, I had a failure on memory after quite some time at 1600 and I eventually got a failure at 1100 on core, weirdly enough only at the bridge sequence in Heaven.

I figure if I can up the voltage from 1.17 up to no more than 1.25, I should be able to hit 1200, which is my goal and the point where I would be happy.

[Ket]

My cheap XFX crap doesn't have the BIOS switch, I guess they decided to save those extra cents per card...
Anyway I have a Sapphire HD5850 to boot from in case the BIOS flashing goes bad, so I can give it a try.

There is a digital signature on this BIOS, that's why there are no BIOS Editors available. The Mobile parts doesn't have the signature, as fas as I know.

There have been digital signatures for a long time, thats why if you set core / memory frequencies over the CCC overdrive limits on older cards after flashing overdrive wouldn't initialise. Eventually a way was found to extract signature files so you could add a sig file that had limits that met or exceeded your OC so overdrive would still initialise. AFAIK theres no support for these cards yet because the BIOS structure has changed a lot. Don't think AMD are the only ones being anal about not wanting clocks directly flashed to the card, nvidia have a even stronger check in place than AMD do but nvidia has just left it disabled. TBH we pay extremely high prices for these cards and I don't think the manufacturers have any right at all to try and dictate what we can and can't do with OUR cards. Making a dual vBIOS a mandatory feature on cards would completely eliminate RMAs due to people getting a bad flash, just flip the vBIOS dip switch, boot, flip the dip switch back again and flash the "bad" chip again.

[Andi64]

Ket, I just flashed the HD7970 BIOS from Sapphire, and it looks to be working (1000/1450). MSI Afterburner is reporting, once again, less voltage than yours: 1050mV on load, 806mV at Idle.

Could you confirm your voltages? I don't get it...

Do you know a voltage measure point? I'll confirm with a digital multimeter...

[Ket]

Minimum voltage is 0.8, Max 1.125 (what I currently have set in AB.) I'd also flash to the VTX3D vBIOS, I just got a very strange memory issue where my monitor went grey. Hard resetting a few times didn't work had to actually turn the system off, flip the dip switch, boot, flip the dip back again and reflash.

[DesertFox]

Ok I just flashed a ghz bios, it looks to be downclocking the voltage to 0.95v while idling and increasing the voltage to 1.26v when stuff happens, kinda excited hopefully this doesnt' crash.
Old gigabyte bios stayed at 1.17 all the time iirc.

Edit: ghz bios crashed when I started heaven, sapphire bios also crashed when I overclocked slightly and couldn't set clocks with overdrive, had to use ab.
This card really does not like non-gigabyte bios's

[Ket]

For reference, if anybody is specifically looking to flash their MSI card with another vBIOS simply for faster default speeds, the Sapphire 7950 uses exactly the same PCB as the MSI 7950.

[DesertFox]

"lowly" speeds of 1100 / 1575.


API: DX11
Tessellation: Extreme
AF: 16x
AA: 8x
1680*1050
Score: 1344

um did you really get 1344 with 1100/1575,

I ran it at 1680 with 1075/1550 and only got 1314 :o

Ie1Xx.png

[Ket]

Yep, if I recall correctly I didn't have the tessellation optimisation checked in CCC, maybe thats why your score is a little lower.

[Ket]

What scores are people getting in 3DM11 with the performance profile? My best score is 93xx @ 1155 / 1650 and that seems low to me.

[Ket]

To make things easier in tracking down a vBIOS thats compatible with the MSI 7950 TwinFrozr I will consolidate to this post for easy cross-referencing.

MSI 7950 TwinFrozr - 880MHz / 5000MHz


Sapphire 7950 - 900MHz / 5000MHz


XFX 7950 Black Edition Doube Dissipation - 900MHz / 5500MHz


Ironic isn't it? The most shady manufacturer out of the options so far is the one that offers the best vBIOS for the people looking for the highest default clockspeeds.

[Andi64]

I've been using the Sapphires HD7970 vBIOS on the XFX since yesterday and didn't have any problems while playing (Starcraft 2, Diablo 3) and while idle. I also let Heaven running for 20 minutes, no problems.

Anyway, my issues were while on 2D, for example resizing the Task Manager window resulted in a driver crash. Looks that it is not happening anymore. But when it entered long idle mode, it crashed with a BSoD =(

I'll try 3DM11 at those speeds to compare with your results

Edit:

3DMark 11 @ 1155/1650 = P9751

[Ket]

I knew my score was low, no way clocks of 1155/1650 would only get just over 9.3k. Perhaps my issues are because I need to format my main PC though, its been through a lot of changes I should of formatted it for at the time but couldn't be arsed with. I've also been trying to hold out on formatting until I finished the bulk of my TK mod. What XFX card do you have? Is it the DD or standard model? vBIOS dip switch aside it may be worth you trying the Sapphire 7950 900MHz edition vBIOS. For now all we can do is monitor 7950/70 PCBs and grab vBIOSes from any cards that they should work on. Its a halfway house until somebody comes out with a new vBIOS editor or I find some time to start pulling things apart myself.

If anyone happens to read this post and thinks "I can do that", you will at least need to be good with a hex editor and IDA Pro.

[Ket]

Ok I just flashed a ghz bios, it looks to be downclocking the voltage to 0.95v while idling and increasing the voltage to 1.26v when stuff happens, kinda excited hopefully this doesnt' crash.
Old gigabyte bios stayed at 1.17 all the time iirc.

Edit: ghz bios crashed when I started heaven, sapphire bios also crashed when I overclocked slightly and couldn't set clocks with overdrive, had to use ab.
This card really does not like non-gigabyte bios's

Can you get a pic of your card with the cooler off? All you have to do then is cross-reference the PCB with other manufacturers and try vBIOSes from cards that use the same PCB as yours.

[Andi64]

I have the DD model, but with standard clocks. The cooler is a pos, but at least is not as bad as the standard version...
To make things worse, when the fans hit about 70% the entire video card enters in mechanic resonance frequency (I don't know if I'm saying this right, English is not my first language...) and the whole computer vibrates...

I'll never buy XFX again...