Gabe Newell calls Win8 a 'catastrophe,' wants Linux to thrive

[Spectrobozo]

Wooooooooooo mmmmmmm very scary..... Almost as scary as Apple App Store and Google Play. Oh wait its not scary it is just an industry standard that was set by the two biggest market holders to date. Windows RT does not support x86, it is ARM only build of Windows.

exactly, as I said, it's scary to think about the PC, x86 adopting the same model on the future.
windows RT is closed and with their own software store (which will also be available on the PC version), if they enjoy great success with this model they could well start adopting it on their x86 version,

[mmorpgfocus]

I have a love hate relationship with Linux.

I have spent days with Linux machines trying to get HDMI 5.1 AC3 passthrough working. On Linux the open-source drivers are often better than the proprietary ones.

For instance AMD/ATI - if you want a Linux machine with any multimedia functionality you MUST buy NVIDIA or settle for integrated Intel graphics like HD4000. ATI proprietary brand Linux drivers are fundamentally broken. You CANNOT play back 1080P without terrible screen tearing with proprietary drivers.

NVIDIA gives Linux a little more love.

Linux is my dream - if it becomes viable to make Linux my #1 OS for high-end surround gaming I will abandon Microsoft in a heartbeat. At this point it is just not there and if Gave Newell has the power to make an open platform like Linux a SERIOUS competitor for gaming performance by getting - say - Intel and NVIDIA fully on board - I would hug the man.

Again though at this point you may think ATI drivers are bad on windows - you have no idea the horror of ATI's Linux drivers - again the OPEN SOURCE ATI driver works better for HD playback!! Mainly it does this by letting the CPU do a lot of lifting and just outputting the visual data - ATI is broken on Linux, and AMD/ATI don't seem to care to fix it.

I will not be buying Windows 8 - Microsoft will not turn my PC into an appliance with a closed system, and I already own 3 tablets - two running Android and one running iOS that I am quite happy with.

I like Windows 7 - and I will be sticking with it for years like many people did with Windows XP.

All it will take is a company like Valve and perhaps Red Hat, Inc. teaming up and all of the sudden the Windows monopoly is BROKEN - I don't think Microsoft quite realizes the opening they are giving to a company like RED HAT to take say - 15% of the ENTIRE CONSUMER PC SPACE.

[naokaji]

windows app store (or whatever it's called) + Windows RT and the way it's closed is quite scary indeed...

As long as they don't prevent installation of software from other sources it is not problem, but rather just another digital distribution platform.

[Spectrobozo]

As long as they don't prevent installation of software from other sources it is not problem, but rather just another digital distribution platform.

I agree, but isn't that exactly what's happening with the ARM version right now?
when they first announced "windows 8" on ARM that was not what I was expecting...

[Syn.]

exactly, as I said, it's scary to think about the PC, x86 adopting the same model on the future.
windows RT is closed and with their own software store (which will also be available on the PC version), if they enjoy great success with this model they could well start adopting it on their x86 version,

Did you read my reply correctly? I was not agreeing with you. x86 Windows will always stay open. Windows RT has not even been released yet and it has hardly been tested by anyone outside of MS. What the limits are for installing software on it has not yet been revealed. x86 versions of Windows 8 are going to support all the current systems of buying/installing programs. Being open to all forms of software is one of the main reasons why Windows became so dominant. MS is not going to dare and destroy its flagship product. Gabe is only moaning because like the majority of older Windows users he does not like change. He wants MS to leave him and Steam alone and not change anything he has learnt to rely on. If you remember he took PS3 to town because it was apparently a pain in the ass to program for. Few years went by and hey presto he is on Sony stage at the E3 announcing the "best" version of Portal 2 on the PS3. All you have to do is look at the way Gabe and Valve work and one thing you will notice is that while they don't mind experimenting with most things, Technology/Programming is not one of those things. For example they are yet to release anything that supports DX10/DX11 or OpenGL 4.x. Always just another refined version of DX9 Source Engine.

Windows RT is a version of Windows that is competing with iOS and Android. None of those products are full Desktop OS'es. They are all based on ARM chips not x86 and they all come with closed market stores. Stop pancaking and stop spreading FUD.

[NEOAethyr]

Oui...
I don't like steam, windows nor linux/posix...

Windows keeps so much hidden and it seems made for dummies or something.
Linux, some of the bugs never get fixed regardless of distro..., and it's a real mess.
Not a single distro is really good to go out of the box, but then again neither is windows.
But at least with windows it won't take me a day to figure out how to get something to work.
That's my fault, that's why i never got into it.

I wasn't gonna spend a huge amount of time fixing up an os and ensuring I could duplicate that process...
Especially when the outcome of it would be not so satisfying...
Gaming was the major point for me, it never really had it.

Just getting a console emu working in it would be a real pain in the butt.
I've worked with linux a little bit, compiling my own xfree parts and a few other odds and ends but that's about it.

In order to appease to the public you need a distro that isn't bugged out, and is pre-setup for anything you might need.
It doesn't need to be a giant iso, just something that runs and is ready-able to install this and run them without hassle.

Anyways, to me, it isnt' an os unless it has working gui AND cli elements...
Cli is not just some outdated input method..., it's still useful, and easy to dev for... well windows cli USED to be easy to dev for until win vista/7..., now in that respect it's plain better off to prog in win32 these days (not as fun... and easy) ...

[Spectrobozo]

Did you read my reply correctly? I was not agreeing with you. x86 Windows will always stay open. Windows RT has not even been released yet and it has hardly been tested by anyone outside of MS. What the limits are for installing software on it has not yet been revealed. x86 versions of Windows 8 are going to support all the current systems of buying/installing programs. Being open to all forms of software is one of the main reasons why Windows became so dominant. MS is not going to dare and destroy its flagship product. Gabe is only moaning because like the majority of older Windows users he does not like change. He wants MS to leave him and Steam alone and not change anything he has learnt to rely on. If you remember he took PS3 to town because it was apparently a pain in the ass to program for. Few years went by and hey presto he is on Sony stage at the E3 announcing the "best" version of Portal 2 on the PS3. All you have to do is look at the way Gabe and Valve work and one thing you will notice is that while they don't mind experimenting with most things, Technology/Programming is not one of those things. For example they are yet to release anything that supports DX10/DX11 or OpenGL 4.x. Always just another refined version of DX9 Source Engine.

Windows RT is a version of Windows that is competing with iOS and Android. None of those products are full Desktop OS'es. They are all based on ARM chips not x86 and they all come with closed market stores. Stop pancaking and stop spreading FUD.

did you read my posts? I think it's pretty clear that "windows rt" is "windows on arm", I don't know why you keep repeating, I was agreeing with you about that, but somehow you assumed I don't know about that...
as far as I know windows rt will be totally focused on their own app store like iOS,

anyway, MS showed a tablet using the x86 version, Intel has had plans for x86 on smartphones and tablets for while... I can see things changing on the future as I can see ARM low cost "desktops", and as I said, the thought of a possible more locked versions of Windows x86 (adopting the win rt model) is what I called "scary", and when you look at them unifying the UI and their app store on both versions...

[zanzabar]

RT is not only arm, it is also for super portable x86 (x86 without bios/efi and is missing controllers like the x86 intergraded devices that run windows CE now), so the phone and some tablets should be on RT with premium devices on the open platform. MS has also always supported running user generated code on CE platforms including windows phone 7 so i do not see them locking out homebrue or unsigned code from windows 8 rt but the masses will not have access to it since it will be hidden but the enthusiasts will have it. aMS is also quick with signing and not much money for a dev licenses (it is basically the cost of visual studio and you get a free copy of visual studios) and they do not charge for the 1st 10 submissions and no charge for small patches on paid apps once you buy in. they may have it more like the 360 were you are paying $50k a patch and giving them almost half the whole sale to get it in but i doubt they will go for that on a more open and competative platform.

RT apps also run on the pro OS, so it will be great when you can get small games to run on your computer and phone from the same purchases and have cloud saves so you can play whenever and wherever you are.

[[XC] Lead Head]

All you have to do is look at the way Gabe and Valve work and one thing you will notice is that while they don't mind experimenting with most things, Technology/Programming is not one of those things. For example they are yet to release anything that supports DX10/DX11 or OpenGL 4.x. Always just another refined version of DX9 Source Engine.

The Source engine has supported DX10 since at least 2010. If you have DX10+ hardware you can set "mat_dxlevel 98" in most Source games it will emulate DX9 using DX10 paths. L4D2 and perhaps maybe Portal 2 support "dx_level 100" which is native DX10 rendering.

[Tao~]

Gabe calls Win 8 a catastrophe but doesnt give any reasons. This coming out so soon after the post about Valve Linux client - seems like a promo to me.

More importantly, I never thought Win 8 added much to Win 7 - just another UI that can be turned off right ? Since the only purpose for Windows in my life is gaming - even Aero is a vexation. If they had made DX11 available on WinXP I doubt I'd needed Win7 either.

[Vinas]

I stopped listening to Gabe's emotional opinions on new/unreleased products after he appeared on Sony stage at last years E3. Funny how he stated loving the PS3 soon as Sony let him plug in Steam into it. Gabe is a good guy but i don't really rate his opinion when it to comes to anything else but games.

Oh and what is a really huge catastrophe is Valve's development cycle! WHERE THE HELL ARE THE NEW GAMES!!!! Come on! Where is the new Half Life game?

good points, and all very true!

[zanzabar]

Gabe calls Win 8 a catastrophe but doesnt give any reasons. This coming out so soon after the post about Valve Linux client - seems like a promo to me.

More importantly, I never thought Win 8 added much to Win 7 - just another UI that can be turned off right ? Since the only purpose for Windows in my life is gaming - even Aero is a vexation. If they had made DX11 available on WinXP I doubt I'd needed Win7 either.

you cannot turn metro off in the current windows 8 builds and they have removed most of the legacy UI including the start bar. you basically have a phone UI with alt tab to change open programs.

[BeepBeep2]

you cannot turn metro off in the current windows 8 builds and they have removed most of the legacy UI including the start bar. you basically have a phone UI with alt tab to change open programs.

+1.

Microsoft for some reason feels that the same OS should be run on everything from phones to Xbox to PC.

[herderien]

Seems like everyone skips over win 2k :P
I always thought it was more like: 98, meh / 98se, good / 2000, YES..

win2k was the professional version aka windows NT5 when millenium was the mainstream version

[Nikolasz]

I will use any useful and good os.

[NEOAethyr]

+1.

Microsoft for some reason feels that the same OS should be run on everything from phones to Xbox to PC.

I think the reason for that is the same as my reasoning...
It can be done, if done decently.

This be microsoft's variation of it.
Right now it's very poor.
But give it 2-3 years, then it'll look just as good as the 360 ui... :\
And that's about all you could expect I think.

You know... in the end, gotta replace it anyways...
Just like a console, there software is crap/err.. not very special eh?, or maybe to special...

I would switch though.
Some of the ui is a little better/updated.
I don't care about the failed metro...
But the os is just so slow, hopefully final is on par with win7 performance wise.
I don't wanna hear about some new blah blah hocus pocus bs that increase the speed some un-relative app just in win8...
Like pcmark or whatever it was.

Metro I think is just not ready.
Why should we pay $300+ for a copy of windows that's not complete in any sort of sense of the word...
I can't be expected to use metro from the get go, no thank you.
I know enough how to use win8 as I would win7, but the way it's presented stock is pretty lame I think everyone agrees...

[MattiasNYC]

they have removed most of the legacy UI including the start bar.

What part of the Windows legacy user interface have they removed other than the start menu?

[zanzabar]

What part of the Windows legacy user interface have they removed other than the start menu?

aero, the start button, random things from explorer (and forcing the ribbon on you,) some builds are missing the close, minimize, and maximize. they literally made it as close to a phone as you can get and pushed all of the UI changes that people disable, but forgot that you cannot multi touch on a monitor and there are not really any existing touch screen consumer things that run windows. they also make you hit the windows key alot (you can bind it to a mouse key as well but it is supper annoying.)

when it was originally shown, they had metro running like active desktop for windows 7 and looked fine but they went off the deep end with how the last build was. i think that the worst thing is that server 2012 or whatever windows 8 server is going to be has command line or metro and they are going to make the new exchange/sql server only work on the new OS.

on the positive side, they did alot of work on the IO scheduler to keep a task on one cpu and to ignore the fake cores on amd and the HT threads on intel for non ideal work loads and 2p efficiency, but for the desktop i see no reason to use it and for servers i do not think that anyone will be happy but will be forced to begrudgingly use it.

[CrazyNutz]

There's a reg hack to enable the start menu, so there is some hope i suppose. Then again who wants to shell out $$ for a new OS that you have to hack to make it usable?

[zanzabar]

There's a reg hack to enable the start menu, so there is some hope i suppose. Then again who wants to shell out $$ for a new OS that you have to hack to make it usable?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CAuvlmPbJE

that video is old, all of those were removed and the assets for the classic UI were completely removed.

[EvilOne]

It took 30 sec and a few clicks to make Win7 look like XP, im guessing its not possable to make Win8 look like Win7 (or XP). Not tried it yet.

[CrazyNutz]

that video is old, all of those were removed and the assets for the classic UI were completely removed.

Then it is doomed

Oh well then it's win7 (which i'm perfectly fine with) until win9

[rintamarotta]

Start8, ViStart and Classic Shell still work and is able to add start menu even tough ViStart and Classic Shell completly coded their own start menu but Start8 still uses microsoft start menu so it will make Startmenu sized MetroUI, even that is better than current.

Ill get you screenshot later about that startmenu if i7 3770k machine doesnt get frozen in Win8.

[phantomferrari]

you cannot turn metro off in the current windows 8 builds and they have removed most of the legacy UI including the start bar. you basically have a phone UI with alt tab to change open programs.

That is the reason a lot of us dont like it, but are those the reasons Gabe calls it a catastrophe? I'm not sure about that

[rintamarotta]

Here is screenshot from my Windows 8 Release Preview and installed Classic Shell.
It works really well and i havent found any bugs so far from it, plan on changing start button icon to something else that suits rest of the windows theme better.

(Images are really large so i will only link them here, theyre uploaded to imageshack)
Windows 8 RP ClassicShell 1
Windows 8 RP ClassicShell 2
Windows 8 RP ClassicShell 3

Since Windows 8 RP received windows updates, i havent seen even single hang on i7 3770k, Asus Maximus IV Extreme-Z, 16Gb Ram and GTX570 test machine.