Instead of Surround, Why Not Top, Medium, & Bottom Heights?

[MattiasNYC]

To the first part of your post! It sounds kind of silly to post and argue something you know nothing about. No matter how much of an expert you are or claim to be, you should at least see both of the movies and listen to them on a properly set up surround sound system. There's no need to guess! If you're guessing, you shouldn't be arguing with anyone. But hey, that seems to be par for the course around here so that's why I don't come around much anymore.

I never said your opinion wasn't valid. We're talking about something that is ultimately subjective. Why should you care about my opinion? Why should I care about yours?

But if you are going to make a statement that is absolute ("one of the biggest rip offs of all time") then don't come crying because someone questions it.

Now, for the record, I actually DID watch ID4 AGAIN right after I wrote that post, because I had the time and your post actually made me curious. I've seen it at least twice before and the sound design / mixing never struck me as exceptional. When I listened to it last week with a focus on that rather than just trying to enjoy the movie I have to say that my recollection was accurate. I find it unimpressive. Some sound design is even fairly "lame" and "cheap" as far as sci-fi flicks go.

I also took the time to watch "The English Patient", and as far as the category the two films shared a nomination in I think "The English Patient" was better.

Now, by all means feel free to argue why it was "one of the biggest rip offs of all time". It's a pretty bold statement.

Off on another trip without leaving the farm uh? The sub's interacting with the other speakers can be more than just delay LOL!

I specifically wrote that the sub should not contribute a delay, NOT that it should contribute that and nothing else. What you wrote made it seem as if the subwoofer would create a delay because of its location / setup, not because of what the mix-engineer decided to do. If it's the latter then I apologize for misunderstanding you and encorage you to clarify what you mean in the future rather than be so confrontational. If it's the former, then feel free to explain how I'm wrong, because there is a standard and included in that standard is the goal for all sounds generated at the same time in each speaker to reach the listener as close to simultaneously as possible (i.e. specficially avoid delays).

For some sounds to seemingly shift to different locations with the camera's view is nice and not just because I think so. It might play a certain sound/s before or after any of the speakers to achieve different LFE's and locations.

The above seems to refer to the decision of the mix engineer. Fine, I don't disagree with that. But that is different from you causing a delay on purpose by moving the sub. Suppose the mix-engineer does the opposite: Suppose he sends a sound to the LFE channel first and to the "satellites" later. Your home-made delay could now completely negate that mix decision. Or suppose you have a sound that covers both highs and lows and is supposed to come out of the front left speaker: It now has its lows delayed relative to the highs because of the subwoofer placement (and the sub would receive those frequencies through bass management, unless of course you disable it). And if your crossover is high enough due to small satellites and your sub ended up in the right corner then the sound would appear to move left to right somewhat because of this delay.

Now I can sit here and talk about decay, localization, delay, interpolation, imaging and yada yada and etc.... but this isn't Head-Fi, AVS and any other Audiophool site.

No it isn't, but it IS the "Home Theater and Audiophile" section, is it not?

[Donnie27]

Now, for the record, I actually DID watch ID4 AGAIN right after I wrote that post, because I had the time and your post actually made me curious. I've seen it at least twice before and the sound design / mixing never struck me as exceptional. When I listened to it last week with a focus on that rather than just trying to enjoy the movie I have to say that my recollection was accurate. I find it unimpressive. Some sound design is even fairly "lame" and "cheap" as far as sci-fi flicks go.

I didn't say the movie itself was GREAT, Exceptional or anything else. I said it (sound and mixing/effects) was better than the English Patient. Doesn't matter if the movie sucked, doesn't matter if Si-Fi sucks that wasn't the point. I never said anything about how it ranked as a movie or if it is "lame" or not.

The above seems to refer to the decision of the mix engineer. Fine, I don't disagree with that. But that is different from you causing a delay on purpose by moving the sub. Suppose the mix-engineer does the opposite: Suppose he sends a sound to the LFE channel first and to the "satellites" later. Your home-made delay could now completely negate that mix decision. Or suppose you have a sound that covers both highs and lows and is supposed to come out of the front left speaker: It now has its lows delayed relative to the highs because of the subwoofer placement (and the sub would receive those frequencies through bass management, unless of course you disable it). And if your crossover is high enough due to small satellites and your sub ended up in the right corner then the sound would appear to move left to right somewhat because of this delay.

Actually Bass redirection the way you're describing it is a fixture on Newer Receivers, 1990's model Pro Logic receivers Featured a full time Sub Out Put. My JVC and Techics receivers sent Bass, not LFE unless it was a movie, to the Sub all the time. I know about the sats and posted about a 5.1 Sony back in 1999. Most of those none THX receivers were crossed over somewhere between 100 and 120Hz. You already know THX says at least 80Hz and mine is fine tuned via the Sound Card and the receiver at 70Hz for my room. I really need some legit test equipment because talking about my speakers rolling off at about 18Hz is BS without it. I don't need or want a Sub for Music payback through the JVC. I'm a fan of Old school receivers, 3, 4 and 5 way monster speakers with 15 and 18 inch woofers. Even young kids listening it are now hooked oh vintage sound systems afterwards.

Now the localization of the LF effects in my Den seems absolutely in-sync (Localized) with the scenes of the screen. No, 70Hz on any of those speakers isn't low enough to faithfully reproduce Sub sonic booms and explosions. Yet boom, there they are. I'm switching out the VSX-819H with a VSX-921 (Clearance $248 at Walmart). Why? Just for 3D pass-though.

Speakers above and below? Most systems should be making that seem *almost moot. I've getting over head sounds system Top Gun and even on the old obsolete Pro logic System. I purposely set up my system with all of the NO NO's just to prove a point to my Audiophile wanna be buds. It's not in a large area, soft furniture, Carpet, even a 4 x 6 foot tapestry behind my seating position and speakers canted. Many are like "WFT, how is that working so well?" My living room has hard wood floors and most of the goodies. One guy with an "Audiophile" system called me a "show off", I laughed until I cried.

No it isn't, but it IS the "Home Theater and Audiophile" section, is it not?

OK, you're right! Readers still don't expect techno babble is what I meant. Their eyes glaze over reading it.

[Hell Hound]

I have a gamer and a starter kit there is a thread that shows how to wire the speakers for individual use,so you should be able to achieve your goal but I use a forte w/ mine the fans should be placed in front/rear and rumble pad in couch seat and or headrest.

[MattiasNYC]

I didn't say the movie itself was GREAT, Exceptional or anything else. I said it (sound and mixing/effects) was better than the English Patient. Doesn't matter if the movie sucked, doesn't matter if Si-Fi sucks that wasn't the point. I never said anything about how it ranked as a movie or if it is "lame" or not.

I know. That's why I specifically said "the sound design / mixing never struck me as exceptional" and "Some sound design is even fairly "lame" and "cheap" as far as sci-fi flicks go."

I don't need or want a Sub for Music payback through the JVC. I'm a fan of Old school receivers, 3, 4 and 5 way monster speakers with 15 and 18 inch woofers. Even young kids listening it are now hooked oh vintage sound systems afterwards.

Personally I'm probably a bit more impressed by hi-def digital to be honest, though "vintage" has its charm to be sure. Come to think of it, they're really apples and oranges I think.... And I also prefer full range towers to sat/sub for music. No disagreement there.

Now the localization of the LF effects in my Den seems absolutely in-sync (Localized) with the scenes of the screen. No, 70Hz on any of those speakers isn't low enough to faithfully reproduce Sub sonic booms and explosions. Yet boom, there they are. I'm switching out the VSX-819H with a VSX-921 (Clearance $248 at Walmart). Why? Just for 3D pass-though.

Good. Your post read as if you'd intentionally induced a delay for the sub. I'm glad your system is well set up and that you like your listening experience on it.

Speakers above and below? Most systems should be making that seem *almost moot. I've getting over head sounds system Top Gun and even on the old obsolete Pro logic System. I purposely set up my system with all of the NO NO's just to prove a point to my Audiophile wanna be buds. It's not in a large area, soft furniture, Carpet, even a 4 x 6 foot tapestry behind my seating position and speakers canted. Many are like "WFT, how is that working so well?" My living room has hard wood floors and most of the goodies. One guy with an "Audiophile" system called me a "show off", I laughed until I cried.

I'm curious how you did that. Did you just duplicate some channels and sent them to added speakers set up above the "standard" ones?

[Donnie27]

OK, got it I agree. I wouldn't say apples and oranges but would say apples and apricots? Vintage systems kick out a warm analog almost tube like sound compared to some of the newer stuff. Also, the source is just as important. New rigs for movies, old ones for Classic Rock and Motown that I love. I showed someone this. Later he (he as the money) set one up that sounds so good it made me get goose bumps. Akai 747 Reel to Reel in hi speed dbx mode with a dbx Studio copy of Superstar by the Carpenters. It was connected to a Merantz 2385. Pioneer HPM 100 on the front and Optimus Mach Ones on the B/2 speakers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcpyY...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpeCAtHOngk

Now sure I'd love to have a set of these and ANYTHING in this guys room.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S11nq...eature=related

The best elevation sound effects came from the Computer and Prelude sound Card via Creative's rip off of Aureal's tech. I can pay the same movie from a difference source and the effect is almost lost. This now sucks because the 921 will not sync but analog signals and this is unwanted delay when both are playing. I also discovered something I that really sucks! It seems some of 921's have a wired Lan and others don't. At first I thought it was Wal-Mart I learned that's not the case.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16882117396
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaWURbHLDOc

But that's for another thread.