Instead of Surround, Why Not Top, Medium, & Bottom Heights?

[Nanometer]

Sorry to be nit-picking here, but if you can hear overtones then it's audible. Overtones in fact are part of the sound in question. It doesn't even make sense to talk about a subwoofer and its overtones, because it's "just one sound".

Also, it's not correct to call low frequencies "inaudible", it's more accurate to call them "undefinable". The meaning of which is that once the frequency is too low we can't identify which frequency it is. We can still hear it though. Unless of course the question becomes what the definition of "hear" is....

Other than that I agree with you I think...

If you are hearing an overtone at 16 Hz, then you are not hearing 16 Hz, you are hearing 32, 64, or any other combination of 16(since we picked 16 Hz as our frequency). An Overtone is a natural resonance in the vibrating structure and is nearly completely unavoidable. However, just because an overtone is a natural phenomena of any vibrating structure, it once again has nothing to do with you being able to hear anything below 18 Hz. And while an overtone may not be part of the track, it has nothing to do with anyone being able to "think" they hear 16 Hz. No human can hear a true generated 16 Hz, no exceptions. An overtone is NOT part of a true 16 Hz frequency tone, I am just explaining to you what is going on.

A 16 Hz tone is none of the following:

--Port noise
--Overtone
--Other objects vibrating near by

It is correct to say you cannot hear low frequencies, or more specifically somewhere around and below 18 Hz. There are plenty of articles about this exact topic. Check out some sites like "Sound and Vision" or "Home Theater". I learned much of this from them, and none of this is my own personal interpretation.

Thought I would add:
An overtone coming from a speaker driver, is a quality of that specific driver. Even when you play a perfectly generated tone of say 16 Hz, you will get overtones. This does not mean you can magically hear the 16 Hz, it means that your subwoofer is very poor at generating that low frequency. It is an unfortunate thing to live with, and it is just something we try to hinder by use of better speaker technology. Nothing to fret about, very few subwoofers can play that low anyways.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overtone


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoacoustics

"Tones between 4 and 16 Hz can be perceived via the body's sense of touch."

[STEvil]

Ah, more people subscribing to the "cant hear below 30hz-ish" myth. There's no doubt that the perception changes to one of feeling when tones of 30hz and under are used with any kind of authoritative ouput, but to say you cannot "hear" below a certain frequency is just as bad as the people who subscribe to the 30fps/60fps myth.

The real issue though is that so many people down the lack of output capabilities of the "subsonic" range. Subsonics can be extremely important to creating ambient audio atmospheres.

An overtone coming from a speaker driver, is a quality of that specific driver. Even when you play a perfectly generated tone of say 16 Hz, you will get overtones. This does not mean you can magically hear the 16 Hz, it means that your subwoofer is very poor at generating that low frequency

No, it means your enclosure or room has a square (more correct terminology but lesser recognized would be refractory) wave issue... or you bought a really, really crappy sub..

Complementary frequencies of noticeable effect are a fact of enclosures and room layout most of the time. Coloration of the output waveform happens from any raw driver and is why some are known to be "brighter" than others. This is somewhat an attribute of harmonics of the soft parts of the driver but is more so the motor and soft part characteristics leading to cone control as resonant frequencies in the main diaphragm are mostly engineered out from decent drivers.

[PaganII]

Well, I think it depends on the situation. For many people there are bigger benefits to be had by spending the money that one would have spent on even a second sub on other components of the system. Larger satellites for example will make it easier to achieve a (lower) crossover point that makes the sub harder to localize which helps imaging.... or room treatment to even out the response curve in the midrange, something most people don't even worry about, but which arguably makes a much bigger qualitative difference than adding a sub.....

But having said that I understand what you're getting at though...

There is NO substitute for more subs! There is no LFE in the main or surround channels no matter where you set the crossover.
Room treatments are expensive also.
The idea behind more subs beside evening out room peaks and nulls is the same as having a very powerful amplifier. Not so you can blow the windows out but so you can play at the loudness you want (need) without having to crank it up, ie do it effortlessly which helps very much to prevent unwanted colorization.
Everyone's sub, and I mean EVERYONE, is a POS compared to this - http://home.comcast.net/~klone-audio...-12Shiva1.html
http://ibsubwoofers.proboards.com/index.cgi

[MattiasNYC]

There are plenty of articles about this exact topic. Check out some sites like "Sound and Vision" or "Home Theater". I learned much of this from them, and none of this is my own personal interpretation.

I didn't mean to sound confrontational, sorry if I did.

I've been working as a recording/mixing engineer and sound designer for about a decade and got my education at collage so I'm well aware of terminology and physics.

I actually think I misunderstood what your point was regarding overtones which is why I wrote what I wrote. I should have read it more slowly probably so sorry about that.

As for "hearing", or "audible", it's a matter of semantics. Yes, there's a limit to our hearing but it's usually a crossover going from being able to perceive pitch, through perceiving sound but not specific ptich, to just sensing something, to finally not perceiving anything (argued by some, disputed by others).

Again, I thought you were attempting to say something you actually weren't which is why I phrased my response the way I did. Didn't mean to misrepresent your position or annoy you. Sorry if I did.

[MattiasNYC]

Ah, more people subscribing to the "cant hear below 30hz-ish" myth.

I think he was making a different point though and he was right in what that was.

No, it means your enclosure or room has a square (more correct terminology but lesser recognized would be refractory) wave issue... or you bought a really, really crappy sub..

Again, he is correct. I think he meant that if you create a perfect sine-wave at 16 Herz the playback system will generate overtones because the system is imperfect. This is correct and really doesn't have anything to do with square waves specifically. All playback systems have this problem and it's not limited to low frequencies in subwoofers. The only issue of importance is to what degree it needs to be dealt with before it becomes a problem.

Complementary frequencies of noticeable effect are a fact of enclosures and room layout most of the time. Coloration of the output waveform happens from any raw driver and is why some are known to be "brighter" than others. This is somewhat an attribute of harmonics of the soft parts of the driver but is more so the motor and soft part characteristics leading to cone control as resonant frequencies in the main diaphragm are mostly engineered out from decent drivers.

I believe the above is more or less what he was trying to get across.

[MattiasNYC]

There is NO substitute for more subs!

I didn't say there was a substitute for more subs, I said that in many situations it's more rewarding to spend money on other things than another subwoofer. A surround sound system is designed to be able to surround us with sound. The ability to pinpoint a source is very important in some material. That ability is dependant on what happens in higher frequencies, not lower ones. Thus spending money on that might yield much better results overall than adding a sub.

That's all I was saying.

There is no LFE in the main or surround channels no matter where you set the crossover.

This is technically true. However, a good surround mixer will have to address the issue of systems where a sub does not exist. So there are several examples of mixes where there is plenty of low end in the main (and surround channels). This is an aesthetic choice that can be made by the mix-engineer.

Let's also not forget that a mix with low-end content in the mains down to, say, 40Hz, will have that automatically re-routed to the subwoofer in many if not most 5.1 systems. In other words a re-recording mix engineer can choose to put most of the important content in the main front L/R speakers and assume that it'll either be correctly reproduced by full range front speakers or moved to the subwoofer by the processing receiver.

Room treatments are expensive also.

Well, I partially agree. But there are things that can be done to fix a room, things that aren't that expensive. My hunch is that at the level where room treatment becomes economically prohibitive you're also cutting corners on the sub you're adding.

The idea behind more subs beside evening out room peaks and nulls is the same as having a very powerful amplifier. Not so you can blow the windows out but so you can play at the loudness you want (need) without having to crank it up, ie do it effortlessly which helps very much to prevent unwanted colorization.

A good point, and it actually points to a dilemma: A good way to make localization better is to "soaking up" frequencies bouncing around in the room (creating problematic "peaks and valleys") and the result of soaking them up is less loudness. So that actually makes the "need" for another sub arguably bigger, assuming the playback system already wasn't powerful enough to reproduce at desired loudness.....

[Nanometer]

I think I misinterpreted what you were trying to deliver here, and I am also sorry if I can off as a little quarrelsome.

But I think some good ideas where represented here. It is not so much of an exact Frequency that we cannot hear, but there is a slow drop off. Just like we cannot hear microwave frequencies, as it is outside our hearing capabilities. You sound like an electrical engineer btw!

[PaganII]

I didn't say there was a substitute for more subs, I said that in many situations it's more rewarding to spend money on other things than another subwoofer. A surround sound system is designed to be able to surround us with sound. The ability to pinpoint a source is very important in some material. That ability is dependant on what happens in higher frequencies, not lower ones. Thus spending money on that might yield much better results overall than adding a sub.

That's all I was saying.



This is technically true. However, a good surround mixer will have to address the issue of systems where a sub does not exist. So there are several examples of mixes where there is plenty of low end in the main (and surround channels). This is an aesthetic choice that can be made by the mix-engineer.

Let's also not forget that a mix with low-end content in the mains down to, say, 40Hz, will have that automatically re-routed to the subwoofer in many if not most 5.1 systems. In other words a re-recording mix engineer can choose to put most of the important content in the main front L/R speakers and assume that it'll either be correctly reproduced by full range front speakers or moved to the subwoofer by the processing receiver.



Well, I partially agree. But there are things that can be done to fix a room, things that aren't that expensive. My hunch is that at the level where room treatment becomes economically prohibitive you're also cutting corners on the sub you're adding.



A good point, and it actually points to a dilemma: A good way to make localization better is to "soaking up" frequencies bouncing around in the room (creating problematic "peaks and valleys") and the result of soaking them up is less loudness. So that actually makes the "need" for another sub arguably bigger, assuming the playback system already wasn't powerful enough to reproduce at desired loudness.....

I don't think you understand LFE at all.

[MattiasNYC]

I think I misinterpreted what you were trying to deliver here, and I am also sorry if I can off as a little quarrelsome.

But I think some good ideas where represented here. It is not so much of an exact Frequency that we cannot hear, but there is a slow drop off.

Agreed.

You sound like an electrical engineer btw!

LoL! Is that a good thing?

[MattiasNYC]

I don't think you understand LFE at all.

Excuse me?

What is it that I do not understand about the LFE?

[PaganII]

You appear to be confusing LF with LFE. Or you may just be considering music only and not movies. There is no LFE in music to reroute.

[MattiasNYC]

You appear to be confusing LF with LFE. Or you may just be considering music only and not movies. There is no LFE in music to reroute.

How about this:

Quote where I talk about "LF" (Low Frequencies I presume) and/or "LFE" and explain how what I said was wrong.

Now do the same for when I talk about "music".

[PaganII]

This is technically true. However, a good surround mixer will have to address the issue of systems where a sub does not exist. So there are several examples of mixes where there is plenty of low end in the main (and surround channels). This is an aesthetic choice that can be made by the mix-engineer.

This is why I don't buy music anymore. It is mixed to sound good on earbuds for the Apple zombies. And you consistently downplay the role of the sub.
The thread was started about Gaming surround sound which you admitted is not your specialty. Positional sound is very important to a gamer because it is a matter of life and death. Sounds that emanate from above or below the gamer would be very important for a gamer especially when in a dark building or outside in the night.
It would be great if someone with your education could figure out a way to use the rear speakers of a 7.1 rig to be used as top and bottom positional speakers after relocating them of course. You would need to brush up on Gaming sound mixing though.

Edit: Up until the Great HDMI Scam gamers used 5.1 or 7.1 analog sound cards with receivers that had analog direct inputs for each channel (I still do) but is getting harder to find an AVR with that feature now. There would be no special software or hardware to create, just coded into the game with a check box in the audio portion of in-game options for 7.1 T&B. Not much marketability in this nowdays but as a gamer I like it. Probably more of a project for a Game Modder or other "out of the box" thinker.

[MattiasNYC]

This is technically true. However, a good surround mixer will have to address the issue of systems where a sub does not exist. So there are several examples of mixes where there is plenty of low end in the main (and surround channels). This is an aesthetic choice that can be made by the mix-engineer.

This is why I don't buy music anymore. It is mixed to sound good on earbuds for the Apple zombies.

Yeah, sad but true. But don't blame the engineers, blame people for being cheap. People simply don't care about great sounding music. Speaking of music by the way, it wasn't what I was speaking of at the time I said the above. I was thinking mainly of film etc.

And you consistently downplay the role of the sub.
The thread was started about Gaming surround sound which you admitted is not your specialty.

Let me just point out here then that in your last post you told me that I don't understand "LFE". Now you're talking about me downplaying the role of the subwoofer. The subwoofer and the LFE are two different things.

Positional sound is very important to a gamer because it is a matter of life and death. Sounds that emanate from above or below the gamer would be very important for a gamer especially when in a dark building or outside in the night.
It would be great if someone with your education could figure out a way to use the rear speakers of a 7.1 rig to be used as top and bottom positional speakers after relocating them of course. You would need to brush up on Gaming sound mixing though.

There's no magic to it really. The only thing is to make the decision on where to relocate the speakers. But again, consider the following:

1) a 7.1 specification already exists. A gamer that buys a 7.1 system and sets it up appropriately will hear any game mixed for such a 7.1 system correctly AND will likewise hear any other material mixed for 7.1, i.e film for example. If you now create a new setup, using existing speakers but relocating them you are dividing the market further. Instead of the mix now working for everyone with a 7.1 system set up conventionally you have a mix that works for a subset. Do you really think it's worth the expense to develop that?

2) The op already sets up his system in a non-standard way. Add more setups like the one you are talking about and there are bound to be even more non-standard deviations (or errors) of setups. The reason I mentioned mixing for the "lowest common denominator" is because from a business standpoint you want to hit the sweet spot where most people can buy the product.

3) I would argue that it's just as important to hear sounds from behind you as it is above/below. But of course some will have a different opinion about that.

4) If positional sound is very important then localization is extremely important. The subwoofer does little to help position sound around your head horizontally. It's mostly higher frequencies that help you with that. So again; if this is important then I argue that it's better to spend money on treating your room to get better localization than it is to buy a second subwoofer.

[Kingcarcas]

There's one guy in the Polk thread at AVS who has MOnitor 40s i believe, on top of his MOnitor 70s on the side of his TV. I agree surround is a PITA and not really convenient until you own your house with a dedicated room down the line. I also got tired of people knocking over the left surround speaker behind the couch. As TC said then there's people who will complain about you cranking it up so in the end you should spend most of your money into a good pair of headphones IMO. I have the Ultrasone HFI-580s and down the line will look into Denon possibly.

In the living room i had a subwoofer in front of the TV and people would put their drinks/feet on top of it so i moved it to my bedroom. I'll just get towers in the future and go sub-less

[Nanometer]

Well said, I agree!

Btw, no music is designed with a subwoofer channel. It is full range only, mono, stereo, quadraphonic. Us poor people use subwoofers because it's a hell of a lot cheaper to get a crappy subwoofer than it is to get a full range studio monitor.

[MattiasNYC]

Kingcarcas + Nanometer +1

[PaganII]

The thread is about GAMING sound not music!

[MattiasNYC]

The thread is about GAMING sound not music!

Only point I made about music in my last post to you was in response to you talking about music.

Everything else I think was highly relevant.

[PaganII]

You just don't get it...
Your 1st post you admitted your experience was in 2dimentional music and film.
Games are 3dimentional. The game tells the soundcard what channel to send the sound. The 7.1analog amp doesn't know or care where the sound goes it just amplifies and sends the signal to the corresponding channel. It does not know if it is L,F,C or what. There is nothing for the receiver to decode. If the game tells the above sound to go the "side right" speaker which is on the ceiling and the below sound to go to the "side left" which is on the floor then problem solved. The info is already in the game. You don't even need Hollywood or HDMI's approval because it has nothing to do with them.
So much for "Xtreme Systems" and modding! So does everyone here use a tiny little monitor and earbuds for gaming? Jeez, sorry I bucked the system.

[MattiasNYC]

You just don't get it...
Your 1st post you admitted your experience was in 2dimentional music and film.
Games are 3dimentional. The game tells the soundcard what channel to send the sound.

So far there is no difference. The re-recording engineer for film does what the sound designer for games does; decides what sound should go where in the sound field and thus into which channel.....

The 7.1analog amp doesn't know or care where the sound goes it just amplifies and sends the signal to the corresponding channel. It does not know if it is L,F,C or what.

So far - again - no difference, and absolutely correct. The amp takes the signal in input channel X, amplifies it and then sends it to output channel X.

There is nothing for the receiver to decode.

It's not about "decoding". There are two things that are separate that I'm talking about:

1) The intended position of a sound, which the engineer/sound designer puts in the appropriate channel, which is a partially "automated" process. You already discussed that above and we agree.

2) The playback system. If we're talking about subwoofers - and we were by the way - then THIS is where it makes a difference.

To my knowledge most receviers will take the information going to the left front channel in a 5.1 signal (for example) and send it to two separate outputs;

- first it will filter a copy of the signal with a high-pass filter and send the output to the left front channel output (after amplification).

- then it will filter another copy, this time with a low-pass, and combine that signal with the low-passed signals from the center, right front, surround L and R and LFE. That total signal will be sent to the subwoofer output.

When I was talking about the subwoofer earlier this was what I was referring to.

If the game tells the above sound to go the "side right" speaker which is on the ceiling and the below sound to go to the "side left" which is on the floor then problem solved. The info is already in the game. You don't even need Hollywood or HDMI's approval because it has nothing to do with them.

I understand what you're talking about. But in order for the "side right" (which I suppose is the "surround right" speaker) to contain the sound that's supposed to come from above (in your example) there needs to be a new standard specific to that setup, because the engineer/system needs to route that accordingly.

You're absolutely right that the gaming companies don't need Hollywood/HDMI approval for it, but that's not the point I'm making. The point is that there are probably many people that will NOT relocated speakers just for gaming. These people have one system on which they watch DVD/bluray, netflix, and play games. They're not going to relocate the speakers every time they go from movie to game. So that limits the market for who will actually take advantage of this new "mix" in a game.

So, again, the issue is whether or not the game manufacturers think it's worth the extra effort and money to develop such an additional standard, code for it and then create audio for it. I doubt they feel that it is.

So much for "Xtreme Systems" and modding! So does everyone here use a tiny little monitor and earbuds for gaming? Jeez, sorry I bucked the system.

Dude, relax. I'm all for interesting solutions and I would LOOOOOOVE better and more immersive games and films with more surround speaker channels + high/low spatially placed ones. LOOOOVE IT!!! Not only would I enjoy the media more, I'd get more work! All I'm saying is that even if it's technically easy to accomplish, the question of profitability will come into play.

I think gamers that want better immersion should petition the game manufacturers. I'd be on your side for sure!

[Nanometer]

This is technically true. However, a good surround mixer will have to address the issue of systems where a sub does not exist. So there are several examples of mixes where there is plenty of low end in the main (and surround channels). This is an aesthetic choice that can be made by the mix-engineer.

This is why I don't buy music anymore. It is mixed to sound good on earbuds for the Apple zombies. And you consistently downplay the role of the sub.
The thread was started about Gaming surround sound which you admitted is not your specialty. Positional sound is very important to a gamer because it is a matter of life and death. Sounds that emanate from above or below the gamer would be very important for a gamer especially when in a dark building or outside in the night.
It would be great if someone with your education could figure out a way to use the rear speakers of a 7.1 rig to be used as top and bottom positional speakers after relocating them of course. You would need to brush up on Gaming sound mixing though.

Edit: Up until the Great HDMI Scam gamers used 5.1 or 7.1 analog sound cards with receivers that had analog direct inputs for each channel (I still do) but is getting harder to find an AVR with that feature now. There would be no special software or hardware to create, just coded into the game with a check box in the audio portion of in-game options for 7.1 T&B. Not much marketability in this nowdays but as a gamer I like it. Probably more of a project for a Game Modder or other "out of the box" thinker.

First, there is no re organization of the sound if you do not have a subwoofer. Should you not have a subwoofer, then you will either set a vacant crossover(without a sub), or run your speakers on full range. There is no sending of the LFE to your front speakers because it just doesn't make sense to. Neither full range speakers nor towers can be used as a subwoofer channel in addition to being used a speaker channel. And if you could it would sound god awful.

No professional studio uses headphones as their primary choice of listening to a sound track especially when it comes down to final edits, and again, a music studio does not have a "subwoofer."

Sound above and below a gamer would be very useful, but as of now, I know of no system, software, or game that currently utilizes that functionality. It is possible with the current hardware to turn 7.1 surround sound into 5.1 with an above and below speaker. You just have to find someone to Re-encode every game you would like this functionality. I would imagine that unless you find a very experienced programmer, this would be excruciatingly difficult. For now however, there are alternatives, such as Front High Right and Front High Left which are often referred to as "presence speakers". There are Rear High speakers as well which are there for a similar effect, however there is no "under" channel speaker to simulate something on the ground. And you would have to imagine that this would be difficult. Imagine having a speaker just sitting on the floor, not exactly the mot convenient thing in the world. Most importantly, in order to get all of these channels you would need 11.2 surround sound or higher, it just adds up unfortunately. What makes things worse is that you would need a complete redesign of the HDMI capability because it is currently limited to 8 independent channels which is essentially 7.1. 12.2 is an upmix which is created using lower speaker channels such as 5.1 and 7.1 surround sound, so that means you would need a complete redesign of your external receiver/processor. Maybe some day we will get there, but without the consumer demand and without the hardware capability, we are not even slightly close to getting there. So this leads us back to using just 7.1 to make a 5.1 surround sound with an above speaker mounted somewhere floating in your room, and a speaker for people to trip over somewhere on the floor. But still, we will need that very experienced programmer to take flight.

Nobody has this because its quite simple, most people don't care, want, or need it. I suspect that this may be because, if a company cannot benefit from having an extensive feature such as this, then I fear they will not do it. I can understand the frustration with the given capability, but this wouldn't be the first time that programming companies haven't listened to the wants of only select few of their vast gamer following.

The reason you don't see receiver with 5.1 analog inputs is because 5.1 analog sucks from a soundcard. And why would you be using a receiver anyways? You can use your preouts in your sound card attached to an external amp anyways... so really your complaint of having HDMI only is sort of unjust. You are using the receiver for the wrong thing with the wrong expectations. Your sound card serves as the decoder, but if you are using the analog outputs then there is NOTHING to encode. Analog means exactly that, it is analog. Analog is the exact signal source that you can hear if you hook up your headphones such as your two channel green headphone jack. HDMI is much better because it is digital. The majority of sound card DACS, including motherboards, are complete garbage anyways, which is why most people who are concerned with quality have either moved on to external DACS or to digital interlinks such as hdmi.

[STEvil]

Aureal used to do vertical positioning.

I'd like to see vertical positional audio come back. No reason you cant do it, its just not done is all.

[MattiasNYC]

nanometer,

+1

[Donnie27]

To the first part of your post! It sounds kind of silly to post and argue something you know nothing about. No matter how much of an expert you are or claim to be, you should at least see both of the movies and listen to them on a properly set up surround sound system. There's no need to guess! If you're guessing, you shouldn't be arguing with anyone. But hey, that seems to be par for the course around here so that's why I don't come around much anymore.

Of course whatever makes you like the sound of your system is what's best for you. The sub shouldn't contribute a "delay" though. If it does the setup is incorrect.

Well, localization of sound is found in higher frequencies so it's not strange at all that they hear the bass from the left, as that information is found above the xo frequency.

Off on another trip without leaving the farm uh? The sub's interacting with the other speakers can be more than just delay LOL! For some sounds to seemingly shift to different locations with the camera's view is nice and not just because I think so. It might play a certain sound/s before or after any of the speakers to achieve different LFE's and locations. Now I can sit here and talk about decay, localization, delay, interpolation, imaging and yada yada and etc.... but this isn't Head-Fi, AVS and any other Audiophool site.