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Thread: Pit Cairn specs : 7800 series revealed

  1. #51
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    Pitcairn is a really good chip

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBreezyBB View Post
    The price seems a bit high for the 7870!
    See, I don't agree with that. As it stands the HD 7870 will completely cut the HD 7950's sales off at the knees. If they had made the HD 7870's price any lower, they would have also had to reduce the price of the HD 7950 and HD 7970. I think $350 is good for that card but that isn't to say that AMD didn't leave themselves with a bit of wiggle room for when NVIDIA drops their cards.

  3. #53
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    350$ for 212mm^2 die is expensive.
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    Quote Originally Posted by trinibwoy View Post
    @tajoh111 - maybe 28nm yields simply don't support lower prices just yet. Most times the simple answer is the right one. AMD tried low pricing with Cypress on 40nm and had serious availability issues. Maybe they just learned from that experience.
    I think it is wafer availability at this point. A chip this small has to have pretty decent yields. 28nm is less problematic than 40nm, so yields should be better this generation. I think Apple is likely gobbling up as much wafers as they can with the new ipad and this leaves little else for everyone else. And most of these companies also have a mobile game they need to focus on so this dilutes the wafer for desktop parts further. TSMC is producing is very small amount of 28nm chips at the moment.

    I think the 7970 although appears to be selling well, I think the installed base is being inflated from this, generally from lack of cards being made. If you look at the steam hardware survey, they are not even on the list yet. From the past, new cards usually take a month to get on the list but they aren't on there.
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    Sorry in advance for the thread-crap but let me get this straight.... the HD7870 is only marginally better than a GTX570, which is only marginally (within 10%) of a now 2 year old GTX480 and that is being heralded as the kingdom-come of video cards?

    Have I missed something or does this seem like a really ty card to me? What happened to 50% per gen?
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  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajoh111 View Post
    28nm is less problematic than 40nm, so yields should be better this generation.
    When you go smaller, things become more and more problematic.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Sentential View Post
    Sorry in advance for the thread-crap but let me get this straight.... the HD7870 is only marginally better than a GTX570, which is only marginally (within 10%) of a now 2 year old GTX480 and that is being heralded as the kingdom-come of video cards?

    Have I missed something or does this seem like a really ty card to me? What happened to 50% per gen?
    I can see your point when considering the retail price for the cards, yesterdays performance refreshed for today.

    Kinda like seeing the price of a barrel of crude oil dropping but the price at the pump continuing to rise.
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    I mean to work with, not with new problems popping up in general as the process gets smaller. Both companies have said 28nm is easier to work with and yields are better than 40nm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sentential View Post
    Have I missed something or does this seem like a really ty card to me? What happened to 50% per gen?
    You missed the 7970, that's where the 50% over last gen (6970) is.

    What else would you expect from a 212mm^2 mid-range chip??

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    I read on different article the actual MSRP given is just the one transmit from Sapphire and other partners, and will allready be possibly a little bit lower at full availability. one can confirm ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sentential View Post
    Sorry in advance for the thread-crap but let me get this straight.... the HD7870 is only marginally better than a GTX570, which is only marginally (within 10%) of a now 2 year old GTX480 and that is being heralded as the kingdom-come of video cards?

    Have I missed something or does this seem like a really ...ty card to me? What happened to 50% per gen?
    Lol 3-5% slower in relative performance of a GTX580 ( 1920x1080, 2560x1600, AA etc ), faster in some case, slower in some ( of some few fps ( 1 fps in some, 3-4 in other ) .. this card is midrange...

    most AIB cards are overclocked ( 5-10% ), the boost should put the 580 behind...
    Last edited by Lanek; 03-05-2012 at 02:22 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanek View Post
    Lol 3-5% slower in relative performance of a GTX580, faster in some case, slower in some ( of some few fps ( 1 fps in some, 3-4 in other ) .. this card is midrange...
    7850 ~200 is midrange. 7870 ~300 no more IMHO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olivon View Post
    7850 ~200€ is midrange. 7870 ~300€ no more IMHO.
    That was during the time when there was a lowend too. Now the low end is disappearing, the death blow will be dealt when Ivy Bridge and Trinity are out. The old midrange becomes the new low end. But prices won't change, they will possibly go up even further to fuel R&D. The rules are changing, get used to it, that's how it will look like from now on.
    Last edited by DarthShader; 03-05-2012 at 02:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DarthShader View Post
    That was during the time when there was a lowend too. Now the low end is disappearing, the death blow will be dealt when Ivy Bridge and Trinity are out. The old midrange becomes the new low end. But prices won't change, they will possibly go up even further to fuel R&D. The rules are changing, get used to it, that's how it will look like from now on.
    Simply going by the published marketshare the manufactures may want folks to think like that but the reality was out of ~68 million discrete video cards sold only 3 million units sold where priced at $300+. The 7850 is getting closer the the meat and potatoes of the midrange.

    If you look at performance per mm2 sure things look excellent but its also on 28nm, there should be improvements per mm2 over competing 40nm in this regard.

    Offering part at $350 that performs in the ball park of last generation hardware for the same price takes away allot of the luster of the 7870, price performance wise it's back to the future. That is unless you are focused on performance per mm2 on 28nm and power consumption but the raw price performance ratio is old school, the consumer didn't really gain here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarthShader View Post
    You missed the 7970, that's where the 50% over last gen (6970) is.

    What else would you expect from a 212mm^2 mid-range chip??
    $500+ is not mid range, and I expect a mid-range card to be a good 50% per gen than last one, or atleast ffs the same increase coming off the die shrink. In this occasion we have neither

    Quote Originally Posted by Lanek View Post
    Lol 3-5% slower in relative performance of a GTX580 ( 1920x1080, 2560x1600, AA etc ), faster in some case, slower in some ( of some few fps ( 1 fps in some, 3-4 in other ) .. this card is midrange...

    most AIB cards are overclocked ( 5-10% ), the boost should put the 580 behind...
    I paid $600 for a pair of GTX470s at launch, which is the same price of the HD7870s and 2 years later are for all intensive purposes are equal (10% better which is erased by my overclocking)... really?

    Quote Originally Posted by highoctane View Post
    Simply going by the published marketshare the manufactures may want folks to think like that but the reality was out of ~68 million discrete video cards sold only 3 million units sold where priced at $300+. The 7850 is getting closer the the meat and potatoes of the midrange.

    If you look at performance per mm2 sure things look excellent but its also on 28nm, there should be improvements per mm2 over competing 40nm in this regard.

    Offering part at $350 that performs in the ball park of last generation hardware for the same price takes away allot of the luster of the 7870, price performance wise it's back to the future. That is unless you are focused on performance per mm2 on 28nm and power consumption but the raw price performance ratio is old school, the consumer didn't really gain here.
    Exactly; what does this perf per watt do exactly? On a desktop? Nothing. The wattage difference isn't enough to even justify the ROI on buying a card simply for the sake of saving energy. Its a lose-lose no matter how you slice it. Unless Kepler is significantly better I see these last 2 years being a total bust for GFX parts. I have never kept a video card more than 15 months and here I am going on almost 24 with no real reason to buy something else.... wtf happened?
    Last edited by Sentential; 03-05-2012 at 02:33 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by highoctane View Post
    Simply going by the published marketshare the manufactures may want folks to think like that but the reality was out of ~68 million discrete video cards sold only 3 million units sold where priced at $300+.
    That was last year. I am talking about this year and the years to come. How many of those 68M were cards for like 100$-120$ or less? When Kaveri comes with a lower clocked 7750 inside and Haswell with rumoured 40CUs, who is going to buy such cards? Who is even going to produce them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sentential View Post
    $500+ is not mid range, and I expect a mid-range card to be a good 50% per gen than last one, or atleast ffs the same increase coming off the die shrink. In this occasion we have neither
    A 7870 is close to being 50% faster than a 6870. And for intensive purposes a good 40% faster than one of your GTX470, which is going to grow as VRAM limit kicks in. Where do you take your data from??

    I have never kept a video card more than 15 months and here I am going on almost 24 with no real reason to buy something else.... wtf happened?
    Consoles, APUs, physics being a mean b!tch for lower node processes... get used to it, it won't get better anymore, only worse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DarthShader View Post
    That was last year. I am talking about this year and the years to come. How many of those 68M were cards for like 100$-120$ or less? When Kaveri comes with a lower clocked 7750 inside and Haswell with rumoured 40CUs, who is going to buy such cards? Who is even going to produce them?


    A 7870 is close to being 50% faster than a 6870. And for intensive purposes a good 40% faster than one of your GTX470, which is going to grow as VRAM limit kicks in. Where do you take your data from??


    Consoles, APUs, physics being a mean b!tch for lower node processes... get used to it, it won't get better anymore, only worse.
    This is the point a lot of people are missing I think. We are almost to the point where for the typical computer there will be no need for a discrete GPU. The only exception I can immediately think of are the cases where you want to drive multiple monitors and that alone is a connectivity issue, not a resource issue. Within a generation or two NVIDIA and AMD discrete GPUs will be solely for gamers and GPGPU compute users.

    One can only hope that the AMD GPU division gets a cut of all the APU sales so as to continue R&D on the discrete GPUs that drive the integrated GPUs forward.

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    ^^ yeah it all seems to be pointing out to that type of market strategy (form OEM makers this is the better choice).

    Also in regard to people saying that $300 is not mid-range, this largely depends on so many factors I wouldn't even know where to begin. But if a company's mid range products can compete with a rival's (last gen higher end) this don't mean prices will be like those from mid-range, specially when needing to clear out old stock.

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    The crazy thing is that 7870 OCed comes very close to 7970 or even can beat it in some cases... Sure you can OC 7970 too,but the point is price difference which is quite big.

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    Quote Originally Posted by informal View Post
    The crazy thing is that 7870 OCed comes very close to 7970 or even can beat it in some cases... Sure you can OC 7970 too,but the point is price difference which is quite big.
    Agree but, this is a major good point with this 28nm generation: - they overclock damn good, even with stock coolers ( my 2 cards pass 1200mhz with stock cooler and they are surely just average ).
    And the scaling with clock speed is really, really good.
    Last edited by Lanek; 03-05-2012 at 05:13 PM.
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    yeah that's insane, 7870 is sure to be the GTX460 of AMD, good price point and plenty of OC headroom.

    for its die size, the engineers have done wonders with Pitcairn, hopefully this success can be homogeneous on upcoming products (maybe Tenerife if it actually exists)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sentential View Post
    $500+ is not mid range, and I expect a mid-range card to be a good 50% per gen than last one, or atleast ffs the same increase coming off the die shrink. In this occasion we have neither
    LoL. Engineers are now suppose to break the laws of physics to make a GPU just for you?
    7870 is a good 30-40% faster than a 6870 on average...



    Quote Originally Posted by Sentential View Post
    I paid $600 for a pair of GTX470s at launch, which is the same price of the HD7870s and 2 years later are for all intensive purposes are equal (10% better which is erased by my overclocking)... really?
    And by $600 you mean +$700 for your pair of GTX470s.
    FYI- Your GTX470 is around 6870/560Ti performance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajoh111 View Post
    I think it is wafer availability at this point. A chip this small has to have pretty decent yields.
    Well whether it's due to poor yields or insufficient capacity really doesn't matter. It's the same net result. My point was that it's possible 28nm volumes simply cannot accommodate lower pricing right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LordEC911 View Post
    LoL. Engineers are now suppose to break the laws of physics to make a GPU just for you?
    7870 is a good 30-40% faster than a 6870 on average...



    People haven't realized that the segment of cards has shifted due to APU and cheaper built in graphics yet.
    What was mid range is now shifted upwards both in price and performance.
    cant compare to how it was before as it isn't accurate anymore.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sentential View Post
    *snip*
    Ill see your SLI GTX470 and upps you one HD7870

    185w/354w


    165w/263w


    20/25fps


    35/44fps


    37/53fps


    And does you GTX470 OC 20% on stock voltage?

    Edit: And yes, the test system is the same
    Edit2: And for a singel HD6870 the numbers are 171/287w and 18/30fps
    Last edited by eXa; 03-06-2012 at 04:37 PM.
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