Building a gaming and home theater speaker system over time

[Syndil]

So even a couple bookshelf speakers in the back corners of my desk are too much? Desk is about 6 feet across and 3 feet front to back. Not exactly but I'm not home right now to measure. Maybe I could also use speaker stands to set up the bookshelf speakers closer to the corners of the room?

I thought about HTIB's and I was looking at the Onkyo ones but I keep hearing that the speakers in HTIB's are terrible.

If you're sitting at your desk, you'll probably want speakers on each side of your monitor. At the back corners of your desk might be fine too, but probably not at the corners of the room. As a general rule, tweeters of the front speakers should be at ear level and as close to the same depth as the display as you can get them.

And yes, many if not most HTIB setups do have horrible, gimmicky speakers. That's why I mentioned Yamaha and Denon. Their speakers are usually very plain looking compared to other HTIB designs, but that is because they usually follow the fundamentals of good speaker design. After a quick Google search, the Denon DHT-391XP seems like a very good candidate. However, I would not use the center channel at all, and instead put the center channel output into phantom mode, assuming the receiver has that feature. If you're sitting at a distance from the display, maybe turn it back on, but a center channel at PC listening distances is undesirable, IMO.

[meanmoe]

So even a couple bookshelf speakers in the back corners of my desk are too much? Desk is about 6 feet across and 3 feet front to back. Not exactly but I'm not home right now to measure. Maybe I could also use speaker stands to set up the bookshelf speakers closer to the corners of the room?

I thought about HTIB's and I was looking at the Onkyo ones but I keep hearing that the speakers in HTIB's are terrible.

I didn't read about the room size. I have a pair of PSB B15s in my office powered by an old Onkyo reciever attached to the optical on my sound card. The speakers aren't on stands, but they should be. They're small but more than adequate for the office. I have a small 10" sub in the corner too - but only because I bought something better for the living room.

The B15 is from an older line. The B5 is the loudspeaker equivalent in the newer line. The B5's sound noticeably better to me. Not as warm in the middle and the highs are clearer. The B6s with the larger drivers are very nice. Of course, this is my opinion - go listen. Towers would not work in my home office.

[Oneil]

Yeah I wouldn't worry about overkill. You never know when you might move into a larger room and you'll not need to upgrade when you do. Your ears will thank you if you buy quality now. Then you will come here all giddy and thank those of us that helped you.

I agree towers (good towers) sound wonderful. But considering this is a pc/desk situation I just think bookshelves make more sense. And good bookshelf speakers can be used in HUGE rooms as main speakers. It's about about the speaker you buy and a good sub to pair with them.

Like I said I own two sets of full towers. The #1 set is in my 7.1 HT system and the other is in my living room as a 2.0 setup. I use bookshelf speakers and a sub at my desk. I wouldn't put them on the desk unless the desk was HUUUGE. I like my speakers further apart to add to the stereo separtion. I have stands.

There are so many good brand names out there to consider. You really should demo to find what sounds best to you.

Sub brands to look at:
Hsu
SVS
PB
Velodyne

There are more but those are some of my favs. (SVS, Velodyne & Hsu are IMO some of the best on the market for the money)

[Eaglespirit]

So if I have 4 speakers (2 front and 2 back) without a center speaker but with a subwoofer what do you call that? It's not 4.0 and it's not 4.1...4.1 has a front center speaker and back center speaker instead of 2 back surround speakers according to Wikipedia(lol). Is it difficult setting that up with a receiver?

Also is surround sound even attainable in this small room (13 x 10 foot)? Or just stick with stereo?

[Syndil]

Four speakers w/o a center but with a sub is what I run for my PC. This configuration can be either a 4.0 or a 4.1 setup. If the sub is dedicated to the LFE channel, it's 4.1. If it's used to provide the bass for the other four speaker channels, it's a 4.0 setup. This is how I have mine configured, since my front/rear speakers do not provide much bass. Most receivers should be able to handle either configuration.

However, if you have a receiver that will not blend the sub with the other four channels, some subwoofers will have stereo inputs/outputs and a built-in crossover so they can handle the blending of at least the front channels on their own. Your receiver's front channel speaker outputs are connected to the sub instead of the front speakers, and then there will be outputs on the sub to connect the front speakers to.

Surround is indeed attainable in a 13x10 foot room, but I would stick with a 4.0 or 4.1 setup. If you're going to be using bookshelf or HTIB speakers, I would recommend 4.0 over 4.1, so that you get the full range of sound from all of your speakers. The center is unnecessary, since I assume you will be sitting directly in front of the display, it will not be necessary to physically localize sound to the display. And at such small listening distances it will only muddy the soundstage, so let the front mains provide the center channel output by putting it in phantom mode on your receiver.

I realize that trying to be practical in the go-big-or-go-home world of Xtremesystems is probably going against the flow, but if you do end up with a full blown 5.1 or 7.1 system with floorstanding towers, you will likely find that you will be unable to place the speakers in a configuration that provides decent sound. Not that it would be impossible, but it would be restrictive.

In order to go with a full 5.1 system with towers, you would need to have a desk not much wider than your display, so that you could place the towers at the same distance away from your monitor without being too far away. You want enough space between them for stereo separation, but you don't want them to be so far from your display that your ear can hear that they are farther away than your display, if that makes sense. At PC listening distances, they don't need to be separated very far at all in order to achieve decent stereo separation. If you imagine an equilateral triangle with your head and the speakers as the points of the triangle, that is the ideal setup. So if you're sitting 2 feet away from your monitor, you only need ~2 feet between your speakers in order to provide stereo separation (assuming your speakers are at the same depth as your monitor). Much farther than that and it will begin to feel unnatural, as your ears will be detecting sound that is coming from a source that is farther away than the video.

Tower speakers would also need to be distanced away from the wall. Towers need to be placed away from walls in order to prevent cancellation by reflection. Ideally you want them to be two feet or more away from the wall, but of course in such a small room this would be impractical. I would want a bare minimum of one foot. You also want to avoid placing speakers in corners, unless they are designed specifically for corner placement (very rare). If you place your speakers in the corners or too close to walls, you will find that the resulting soundstage feels very flat.

My recommendation would still be a no-nonsense HTIB system or, if you are unable to find a suitable one, a receiver + home theater speaker system (such as the Polk RM705 system), or a receiver + bookshelves. Bookshelves, however, may be a bit too large for your desk. HTIB systems or home theater speaker systems usually have small satellites with a blended sub, which should be ideal for a space the size you are working with.

[Eaglespirit]

I'm still wanting to get PSB or whatever bookshelf speakers but what do you think of these speaker packages?

http://www.memoryexpress.com/Product...3%28ME%29.aspx

http://www.memoryexpress.com/Product...1%28ME%29.aspx

I know Polk has been trashed a lot in this thread but they gotta be better than most of the other companies making HTIB's like Sony and Onkyo. One is $250 off and the other doesn't come with a Polk subwoofer which nobody in this thread likes.

Also I have an Aiwa stereo system from back in the 90's (christmas gift) and it came with Aiwa speakers (model no. SX-M33). It still sounds fine to my newbie ears. I'm not sure how good they are or if they would connect to a receiver or they were just made to connect to an Aiwa CD player. The speakers have unremovable cables attached to them that have naked wire at the other end which i stick into the back of the CD player where there is some kind of clamp to hold them in place. The CD player they came with is kind of broken (skips a lot) so it would be great if I could put those to some kind of use. I'm building a gimpy gaming pc for my niece out of spare parts so I could always hand them off to her when I upgrade the speakers.

Edit: There was a listing for these Aiwa speakers on Ebay awhile ago with a better description: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Aiwa-Bookshe...-/370537659426

"2-WAY FRONT PORTED Bookshelf type...It has a single 4" Woofer and 1" Super Tweeter......Cloth covered front panel is not removable, with a hard plastic grille for protection...Wooden enclosure!!..The back panel does NOT show the power rating or Frequency response but does show these are 8 OHMS..
These were tested to 25% of power for 5 minutes from my SANSUI 9090DB Analog receiver, with no signs of being overpowered...The sound is XLNT for a small budget priced bookshelf sized set..A Good amount of bass for their size with clear sharp highs!!..
They do have a somewhat "in a box" sound as with most all types of small low-end budget speakers, but still much less than those plastic enclosures..There's nothing like wood!"

He was able to hook them up to a Samsung receiver so apparently I can use them!

What do you think about using those Aiwa speakers? I could just invest in a good receiver for now. Any recommendations on brands or specs for one that will work fine with these Aiwa speakers for now but that could also power a good 5.1 PSB system with towers down the road should I eventually have more space for them?

[Syndil]

I think they would be decent. The 250 seems to be the same as the 1600 minus the subwoofer, but it costs more, so of course I'd go with the 1600 even if you plan to replace the sub. I don't have any problems with Polk subs myself and use a Polk PSW-300 for my home theater.

However I will say that I think their RM series packages are higher quality, and you can actually find the RM705 for less money:

http://www.amazon.com/Polk-Audio-RM7.../dp/B000WGJX5A

I would also look around for discontinued systems from higher-end manufacturers. Here's an $1100 Martin Logan theater system for $400:

http://www.amazon.com/MartinLogan-ML.../dp/B0049P2000

Doesn't use their signature electrostats, but I've not known Martin Logan to put out anything that was crap. Same with Paradigm. But I should mention that I've not really delved deep into shopping for a home theater system recently, so this is just stuff I am finding very quickly. I'm just using them as possible starting points for your search. There are many, many manufacturers of decent quality speakers to choose from. The trick is sorting the overpriced garbage from the bang-for-your-buck performers. The only way I know how to do that is to audition them. I would never buy speakers based solely on online reviews or recommendations from a forum.

Of course that may not be practical all the time, so at least make sure you understand a company's return policy before making a purchase, and don't be afraid to use it if necessary.

[Syndil]

If you are happy with your Aiwa speakers, then you'll probably be happy with any of the speaker systems we have discussed so far, as they are likely to be a step up.

As for a receiver, for connecting to a PC, you don't need much at all. Don't have to worry about HDMI, multiple inputs, any of that. All you really need is a DAC to decode the digital signal from the PC's SPDIF output and an amplifer to power the speakers. Pretty much the cheapest home theater receiver of whatever brand you prefer will be adequate for PC use. Since you don't need HDMI, you might even be able to score a bargain on an older high-end receiver that has optical digital but no HDMI inputs.

You could even go for a digital decoder/amplifier setup, thus being able to sink more money into the amp. Your PC is pretty much your receiver, so that's really all you'd need. Search eBay for a Technics SH-AC500D, for example, and pair it with an Adcom GFA-7400 5-channel amp, and you'd have one sweet, sweet setup for not much cash that would be able to drive whatever speakers you wanted to throw at it.

[Eaglespirit]

Well I also have a PS3 which I believe uses HDMI...which I want to play blu ray movies from...I could just hook it up to the monitor with an HDMI to DVI cable (monitor has no hdmi input) but how would I hook it up to a sound system? Sorry I'm really new at this lol.

Edit: I think I like the Aiwa's because I've been using a cheap (less than $50) stereo system called Centrios Multimedia System with Subwoofer which I got from The Source or whatever just because I wanted some type of sound and had no money at the time. They hurt my ears and in fact the left side speaker is dead so the Aiwa's are already a big step up from that lol. When I audition some real speakers I will probably have my socks blown off.

[Syndil]

Well I also have a PS3 which I believe uses HDMI...which I want to play blu ray movies from...I could just hook it up to the monitor with an HDMI to DVI cable (monitor has no hdmi input) but how would I hook it up to a sound system? Sorry I'm really new at this lol.

The PS3 does add another level of difficulty to the equation. First of all, your PS3 can display video via an HDMI to DVI cable, but only if the monitor is HDCP compliant. So you need to dig up the specs for your monitor and see if it is HDCP compliant before continuing on with this plan. If it isn't, you'll need an HDCP stripper in order to get your PS3 to display video on it, and good luck finding one of those. The PS3-S201 will do the job, if you can find one to buy. It would probably be easier and cheaper to buy a monitor that is HDCP compliant.

But the audio part is no problem. The PS3 has an optical digital output on the back of it, so any of my previous suggestions would work for the audio. A cheap home theater receiver should have at least two optical digital inputs on it, and the Technics DAC I mentioned also has two optical inputs.

[Eaglespirit]

Thank you for the suggestions Syndil but I didn't want to pay extra for shipping costs with ebay especially being from Canada. Most ebay sellers don't even want to ship to Canada.

I just went with a Denon AVR 791. I kind of jumped the gun and bought it without asking your guys opinions but I'm getting really tired of this one cheap speaker I'm using lol. It was originally going to go with a Denon 1612 because it was on sale for $300 but they sold out at the store I was at. I was even trying to buy the demo one they had for a discount but they wouldn't sell it to me because it was "in the fire" whatever that means. The 791 seems to be a better receiver anyways and I got an open-box one for $405. I'm just gonna connect it to my old Aiwa speakers for now so I have something to listen to. I can't wait to set it up tonight (spent most of last night reading the manual).

Do you think this would be able to drive most bookshelf speakers in the $500 range such as the PSB Image ones? I'm not gonna be raising the volume to very loud levels. Max setup I will go with for the forseeable future is 4.1 with bookshelf speakers. I briefly auditioned a PSB Image set at Sony Style and liked what I heard but I don't have much to compare it to yet (they are very soft and easy on my ears compared to my Aiwa ones lol).

[Oneil]

That receiver pushes 90 watts rms per channel. I don't know what the recommended watt range is on those speakers but 90 watts will be plenty.
Do you have a spec sheet you can post of the speakers you are looking at?

[Eaglespirit]

Do you have a spec sheet you can post of the speakers you are looking at?

I would prefer either B5 or B6...Receiver also pushes 125 watts at 6ohms apparently though I read somewhere else that the 2 different power output that denon receivers list is some kind of marketing gimmick.

Image B6
Bookshelf
Frequency Range
Response
On Axis @ 0°±3dB - 45-23,000Hz
On Axis @ 0°±1 1/2dB - 59 -20,000Hz
Off Axis @ 30°±1 1/2dB - 59-10,000Hz
LF Cutoff -10dBSensitivity - 40Hz
Anechoic Chamber - 89dB
Listening Room - 90dB
Nominal - 8 Ohms
Minimum - 4 Ohms
Input Power Recommended - 20 - 150 Watts
Program - 150 Watts

Image B5
Bookshelf
Frequency Range
Response
On Axis @ 0°±3dB - 50-23,000Hz
On Axis @ 0°±1 1/2dB - 70-20,000Hz
Off Axis @ 30°±1 1/2dB - 70-10,000Hz
LF Cutoff -10dBSensitivity - 50Hz
Anechoic Chamber - 87dB
Listening Room - 89dB
Nominal - 8 Ohms
Minimum - 4 Ohms
Input Power Recommended - 20 - 150 Watts
Program - 150 Watts

Image B4
Compact Bookshelf / Surround
Frequency Range
Response
On Axis @ 0°±3dB - 60-23,000Hz
On Axis @ 0°±1 1/2dB - 70-20,000Hz
Off Axis @ 30°±1 1/2dB - 70-10,000Hz
LF Cutoff -10dBSensitivity - 55Hz
Anechoic Chamber - 85dB
Listening Room - 87dB
Nominal - 8 Ohms
Minimum - 4 Ohms
Input Power Recommended - 10 - 80 Watts
Program - 60 Watts

[Oneil]

Well the B6 is the best speaker in that group of course. You'll need to add a sub when you can but even without a sub it should sound great. Low end will be a little lacking but unless you listen to a lot of drum and bass then you may not mind it so much. Once a sub is installed you be much happier though. I'd grab the B6 myself if I were looking at that brand; which I personally wouldn't be. (Only because there are others speakers I like more)

90 watts RMS from that Denon will be PLENTY of power for any of those speakers.

Here is a good review of the B6 if you haven't already read it.

http://www.stereophile.com/standloud...6_loudspeaker/

[Eaglespirit]

Ok so this receiver suits my long term goal but until I can afford speakers like that I was hoping to use my 2 old Aiwa speakers from my stereo system. I looked up some specs and here they are.

The amp on the stereo that fed the speakers:
Amplifier section power output is 15W + 15W (1kHz, T.H.D. 10%, 8 ohms) or 12W + 12W (1kHz, T.H.D. 1%, 8 ohms)

The speakers:
Impedance - 8 ohms
Output sound pressure level - 87dB/W/m

Will I be able to use these speakers with the receiver I have? If so what precautions should I take so I don't damage the new receiver? I figure I should just be careful not to raise the volume very high.

[Eaglespirit]

Nevermind I will just go pick up a PC to RC stereo cable tomorrow then I can hook up them up to my stereo's auxilary input for now. I don't wanna mess up my receiver already.

[Syndil]

Those speakers won't hurt your receiver. They won't do it justice, of course, but no worries about the receiver being damaged by them. It's much more likely that you will damage those speakers with the receiver. I would go ahead and hook them up and start breaking the receiver in so it will be performing optimally when you do get your new speakers, whatever you decide upon.

-- Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities

[meanmoe]

Well the B6 is the best speaker in that group of course. You'll need to add a sub when you can but even without a sub it should sound great.

I like the driver in the B5 a little better I think it sounds slightly more responsive in the mid range. You do get more on the low end from the B6s though. It's a surprisingly large bookshelf loudspeaker though.
90W will be fine. In my home office, I push a pair of B15s (predecessor to B5), with an old receiver that only throws 80W.

and remember, DO NOT PAY RETAIL ;-) ... you can also get bstock sometimes for even cheaper, but I haven't bought any. pm me if you need a guy, he's in the US though.

As for the others, I think you're going to blow your cheap speakers.

power output at 6ohms vs 8 ohms does seem to be used as a marketing gimmick, I think older receivers seem to list as a lower impedance also, though I may be wrong.

[Oneil]

Audiogon is a fantastic site if you want to buy used high end gear at a price you can afford.

[Eaglespirit]

There's also canuckaudiomart.com for Canadians. I found a used audio store here in Calgary. They are selling PSB 50 Mk II for $250 (not sure if it's pair or single). Looking around on the net these are called floor speakers...does that mean they are basically towers? If so they are too hardcore for my tiny listening space lol.

Edit: Nevermind those PSB's are already sold...apparently they haven't updated their website in a long time.

[Eaglespirit]

So I decided to just hook up my pc to my old Aiwa stereo system for now so I don't blow those speakers unnecessarily with the new receiver. I really want to start using my new receiver though so I thought I would get some cheaper speakers for now until I can afford to upgrade later to the Image Series range ($500 a speaker). I can't afford to spend $1000 right now so I was hoping to spend $200 or less for a pair of speakers that would fit with my Denon 791 receiver. These are the ones I'm looking at so far:

(Edit) SOLD: Focal Chorus 706 S $225 for pair (worth around $500 new so 55% off)
Specifications:
2-way bass reflex bookshelf wall mounted
Speakers: 6-1/2" Polyglass mid-bass, 1" TNC inverted dome tweeter
Frequency response (+/- 3dB): 55Hz-28kHz
Sensitivity (2,8V/1 m): 90dB
Nominal impedance: 8 ohms
Crossover frequencies: 2400Hz
Maximal power handling with musical program: 80W
Dimensions (HxWxD):
370x220x250mm 14.6x8.7x9.8inch
Weight: 9.6kg (21.1lbs)

PSB Alpha Mites $100 for pair (worth around $170 new so 40% off)
Specifications:
Frequency Range: 72 - 21000 Hz
Sensitivety: 90 dB
Impedance: 6 Ohms
Power: 15 - 80 Watts
Drivers: 0.5" Tweeter, 4.5" woofer
Size (WxDxH): 146 x 232 x 206 mm
Weight: 7 lb each

B & W DM302 $110 pair (worth $250 new so 55% off)
D e s c r i p t i o n - 2-way vented-box system
Drive units - 1 x 25mm soft dome high-frequency
1 x 125mm doped paper cone/bass
midrange
F requency re s p o n s e - 72Hz – 20kHz ± 3dB on reference
axis
S e n s i t i v i t y - 91dB spl (2.83V, 1m)
Nominal impedance - 8ohm (min 3.2ohm)
Power handling - 25W - 100W into 8 ohm on
unclipped programme
D i m e n s i o n s - Height: 320mm Width: 185mm
Depth: 208mm

Mission M70 $80 for pair (worth around $150 new so 45% off)
Technical Details
Peak Power Handling 75 watt
Frequency Reponse 68 Hz - 20 kHz
Impedance 8 ohm
Sensitivity 87 dB
Subwoofer Power 100 watt
Magnetic Shielding Magnetically Shielded
Connectivity Cable

Mission 760 $60 for pair (worth around $100 new so 40% off)
2 way reflex
Frequency response: 60Hz-20KHz
Impedance: 6 Ohm
Sensitivity: 89db
20-75Watts
Max SPL: 103db/pair
Crossover: 4.5KHz
Effective volume: 6.5L
Drive units: HF; 19mm (.8") fabric dome FF cooled, LF; 135mm (5.5") Plasiflex
Input connector: spring clip
Cabinet dimensions 295x180x200mm (11.6x7x7.9")
Weight: 7kg (15.4Lbs)

Paradigm Atom Version 6 $170 for pair (worth around $240 new so 30% off)
SPECIFICATIONS
Design 2-driver, 2-way bass reflex,
quasi-3rd-order resistive port,
bookshelf / stand-mounted
Crossover 2nd-order electro-acoustic at 2.0 kHz
High-Frequency Driver 25-mm (1 in) S-PAL™ dome tweeter,
ferro-fluid cooled and damped
Bass / Midrange Driver 140-mm (5-1/2 in) S-PAL™ cone
25-mm (1 in) high-temperature
voice-coil, oversize ceramic /
ferrite magnets, GRIP™ chassis
Low-Frequency Extension* 50 Hz (DIN)
Frequency Response:
On-Axis
30° Off-Axis
±2 dB from 86 Hz - 22 kHz
±2 dB from 86 Hz - 18 kHz
Sensitivity - Room / Anechoic 90 dB / 87 dB
Suitable Amplifier Power Range 15 - 80 watts
Maximum Input Power† 50 watts
Impedance Compatible with 8 ohms
Height, Width, Depth 28.2 cm x 16.8 cm x 22.5 cm
11 in x 6-5/8 in x 8-7/8 in
Weight (unpacked) 4.8 kg / 10.5 lb each

NHT Super Zero 2.0 $200 for pair (worth around $250 new so 20% off)
Specs
Type: Two-way, mini-monitor
Tweeter (size in inches, type): 1, silk dome
Woofer (size in inches, type): 4.5, pulp cone
Nominal Impedance (ohms): 8 nominal, 5.5 minimum
Recommended Amp Power (watts): 20–75
Available Finishes: Gloss Black
Dimensions (W x H x D, inches): 5.5 x 9 x 5
Weight (pounds): 5.8


I'm leaning towards the Focal or PSB's or B&W. The Focal Chorus seems to be the best deal but the PSB's and B&W's and Mission's are the smaller investment considering I am planning on upgrading these and the PSB's would probably make decent surrounds if I do decide to get PSB Image later on. Also the PSB's and B&W's and Mission's are sold from Canada and they are lighter so less shipping costs. I can't really audition these since they are older speakers and I'm buying them online. Any thoughts or opinions on these speakers?

Edit: The Focus Chorus were sold. I'm gonna buy something Friday and am leaning towards the PSB's and B&W's so I'd like to get your opinions on the qualities of these speakers or any of the other ones I listed.

[Oneil]

You really need to demo before you buy but I bet whatever you end up with you will like.

Oh and you can hook up your old aiwa speakers. As long as you don't up the volume to a point where the speakers start breaking up then you'll be fine. And then when you buy some better speakers you'll really get to hear the difference.

[Eaglespirit]

Just bought the PSB Alpha Mites. Only $125 with shipping so not a huge investment and can handle way more power than my Aiwa speakers. They should be fine until after Christmas when I have more money.