new TEC set up

[bds71]

OK - so i wanted to do a TEC project. my current system uses a Boreas TEC "system" as a chiller to keep my water loop at ambient (along with 2 stacked black ice gtx240's). the system i will be building soon, dispenses with the Boreas unit and replaces it with two 10A TEC's which will be water cooled on the hot-side (essentially giving me more than double the cooling capacity from the TEC's). also, i will drop one of the gtx240's to place it in the hot-side loop along with a third which is currently not being used - leaving only one on the cold side to help dissipate heat and keep the temps above ambient. the loops will be as follows:

hot side: Reservoire (Bits Power rose colored 350 mL filling tank) --> Reservoire/pump (Koolance RP-401X2 w/2x PMP-400 pumps in series) --> TEC Hot-Side water blocks (2x EK Supreme HF Cu in parallel) --> radiators (2x Black Ice GTX240 in series) -->Res (1/2 tubing with parallel to the blocks at 3/8) [flow resistance = 2x high flow CPU blocks + 2x radiators - 2x PMP-400 pumps]

cold side: Reservoire/Pump (XSPC X2O w/450 Pump used for filling and extra flow) --> Reservoire/pump (Koolance RP-401X2 #2 w/2x PMP-400 pumps in series) --> CPU block (HeatKiller 3) --> GPU blocks (2x HeatKiller full GPU Blocks in parallel) --> Radiator (GTX240 #3) --> TEC Cold-Side water blocks (2x EK Supreme HF Cu in series) --> Res/pump (3/8 tubing all around currently, but may change to 1/2) [flow resistance = 3x high flow CPU blocks + 2 GPU blocks + 1x radiator - 3x pumps]

the TEC's are "tec1-12710-50's" rated for 154 Qmax @ 15.4V and 10A Imax (will only be using 12V)
thermal paste wil be Prolimatech PK-1 (or Antec Formula 7 depending on later reviews of diamond paste from Skinee) - unfortunately, i could not get Indigo Xtreme that would fit the 50mm TEC (max size is 34mm^2)
fans will be 12x YL D12SH12's in P/P all around

QUESTIONS:

i "plan" to put all 12 fans, 5 pumps, and 2 TEC's on a home-made [40A] PWM controller <crosses fingers> which ranges from 5-12V and is temp controlled (adjusted for variable ambient +/- a few degrees: add 5-10C to run at lower PWM voltage; or sub ambient to run at max voltage)....is this a feasable plan/idea???? can this be done???? note: i have a 1200W PSU that will have 2x open 20A 12V rails, but i may have to drop one of the GPUs to get that - or i could purchase a 1500W PSU with 25-30A rails, but then i would have to get bigger TEC's hmmmm.....an idea for later

i've read on these forums that 300-600W TEC's are needed (for direct die cooling??). i don't fully understand this. i currently have ~10A TEC with two stacked GTX240's w/ 6x Noctua fans; and i can run my OC'd i7 965 and 2 OC'd GTX285 GPUs all day at ambient + 5C - water temp - at full load running F@H on all three processors 100% loaded (and depending on room temp - no AC in germany - can usually do this without going over 40-50% on the TEC's/fans which are software controlled by the MTEC controller that comes with the Boreas)........please give me your ideas on the feasibility of my "upgrades"????......note: Boreas is air cooled with 2x very loud 38mm high speed fans

questions/feedback????

oh, and hello - this is my first post, but i just wanted to jump right in - i've been reading these forums for months

[mindchill]

OK - so i wanted to do a TEC project. my current system uses a Boreas TEC "system" as a chiller to keep my water loop at ambient (along with 2 stacked black ice gtx240's). the system i will be building soon, dispenses with the Boreas unit and replaces it with two 10A TEC's which will be water cooled on the hot-side (essentially giving me more than double the cooling capacity from the TEC's). also, i will drop one of the gtx240's to place it in the hot-side loop along with a third which is currently not being used - leaving only one on the cold side to help dissipate heat and keep the temps above ambient. the loops will be as follows:

hot side: Reservoire (Bits Power rose colored 350 mL filling tank) --> Reservoire/pump (Koolance RP-401X2 w/2x PMP-400 pumps in series) --> TEC Hot-Side water blocks (2x EK Supreme HF Cu in parallel) --> radiators (2x Black Ice GTX240 in series) -->Res (1/2 tubing with parallel to the blocks at 3/8) [flow resistance = 2x high flow CPU blocks + 2x radiators - 2x PMP-400 pumps]

cold side: Reservoire/Pump (XSPC X2O w/450 Pump used for filling and extra flow) --> Reservoire/pump (Koolance RP-401X2 #2 w/2x PMP-400 pumps in series) --> CPU block (HeatKiller 3) --> GPU blocks (2x HeatKiller full GPU Blocks in parallel) --> Radiator (GTX240 #3) --> TEC Cold-Side water blocks (2x EK Supreme HF Cu in series) --> Res/pump (3/8 tubing all around currently, but may change to 1/2) [flow resistance = 3x high flow CPU blocks + 2 GPU blocks + 1x radiator - 3x pumps]

the TEC's are "tec1-12710-50's" rated for 154 Qmax @ 15.4V and 10A Imax (will only be using 12V)
thermal paste wil be Prolimatech PK-1 (or Antec Formula 7 depending on later reviews of diamond paste from Skinee) - unfortunately, i could not get Indigo Xtreme that would fit the 50mm TEC (max size is 34mm^2)
fans will be 12x YL D12SH12's in P/P all around

QUESTIONS:

i "plan" to put all 12 fans, 5 pumps, and 2 TEC's on a home-made [40A] PWM controller <crosses fingers> which ranges from 5-12V and is temp controlled (adjusted for variable ambient +/- a few degrees: add 5-10C to run at lower PWM voltage; or sub ambient to run at max voltage)....is this a feasable plan/idea???? can this be done???? note: i have a 1200W PSU that will have 2x open 20A 12V rails, but i may have to drop one of the GPUs to get that - or i could purchase a 1500W PSU with 25-30A rails, but then i would have to get bigger TEC's hmmmm.....an idea for later

i've read on these forums that 300-600W TEC's are needed (for direct die cooling??). i don't fully understand this. i currently have ~10A TEC with two stacked GTX240's w/ 6x Noctua fans; and i can run my OC'd i7 965 and 2 OC'd GTX285 GPUs all day at ambient + 5C - water temp - at full load running F@H on all three processors 100% loaded (and depending on room temp - no AC in germany - can usually do this without going over 40-50% on the TEC's/fans which are software controlled by the MTEC controller that comes with the Boreas)........please give me your ideas on the feasibility of my "upgrades"????......note: Boreas is air cooled with 2x very loud 38mm high speed fans

questions/feedback????

oh, and hello - this is my first post, but i just wanted to jump right in - i've been reading these forums for months

I guess the first question is what are you looking for in temps?

The thing that gets most first time enthusiasts is that tecs are only good for about 30-40ºc delta on hotside water temps on a load with decent cop. As you add a bunch of waste heat into the system with tecs, your dt starts to dissipate as you add more heat to your loop.

This means its really a juggle to get the most out of your tec without adding a ton of heat losing your dt to your hotside loop

Also figure running your tec's at about 50=60% imax so that you don't lose your dt to thermal resistance between your water, copper, ceramic, and actual semiconductor of the tec.

[Ultrasonic2]

i've read on these forums that 300-600W TEC's are needed (for direct die cooling??). i don't fully understand this. i currently have ~10A TEC with two stacked GTX240's w/ 6x Noctua fans; and i can run my OC'd i7 965 and 2 OC'd GTX285 GPUs all day at ambient + 5C - water temp - at full load running F@H on all three processors 100% loaded (and depending on room temp - no AC in germany - can usually do this without going over 40-50% on the TEC's/fans which are software controlled by the MTEC controller that comes with the Boreas)........please give me your ideas on the feasibility of my "upgrades"????......note: Boreas is air cooled with 2x very loud 38mm high speed fans
)

Well what is the point of spending all that money and still being +5C you could do that with only radiators ?

thats why you need about 900Qmax ( not watts used ) to get you water temps well under ambient at load otherwise whats the point of it all

no radiators on the cold side whats the point of that . just get more Qmax and pass all the heat though the TEC's so you can get temps worth the effort

[bds71]

Well what is the point of spending all that money and still being +5C...//...no radiators on the cold side whats the point of that . just get more Qmax and pass all the heat though the TEC's so you can get temps worth the effort

the point is: i don't want subambient temperatures (or rather, i don't want condensation). i don't have the setup for adding insulation. i want ambient temps at load. maybe a few degrees below, but not to the point of condensation. i don't mind a few degrees above.

...you could do that with only radiators

I guess the first question is what are you looking for in temps?

i can't hit ambient +5C at full load running OCed proc +2 OC GPUs with three GTX240's - maybe ambient +5 at idle, but not at full load. that's why i want TEC's - and because i want to tinker with them - for a project....it's an experiment for me - a project. it's fun.

tecs are only good for about 30-40ºc delta on hotside water temps on a load with decent cop. As you add a bunch of waste heat into the system with tecs, your dt starts to dissipate as you add more heat to your loop.

huh??? waste heat from the TECs will be carried away to 2 of the 240 rads - which should keep the hot side manageable, and the cold side (TEC, not water loop) well below ambient. the actual dT (on the TEC) should be less than 30C?? the temp for the water temps might be a little higher, but the dT between the 2 loops should also be about 20-30C? maybe? not sure exactly what your saying, so i guess i don't fully understand.

This means its really a juggle to get the most out of your tec without adding a ton of heat losing your dt to your hotside loop

ie: keep my hot side as cold as possible, and the cold side will follow suit....right?

Also figure running your tec's at about 50=60% imax so that you don't lose your dt to thermal resistance between your water, copper, ceramic, and actual semiconductor of the tec.

if necessary, i can add another GTX240 (via another purchase) to the component loop (cold side) to help the TEC's out, but i also plan to put everything on a PWM circuit which should help mitigate waste except when running full out. basically, since i am running 2 rad's and 1 TEC now....i planned to replace one of the rads with another TEC and throw the extra rad on the hot side to more efficiently cool the TEC's (rather than the air cooling i currently have). what am i missing?

[z3d.]

Well, you shouldn't use a radiator on the cold side loop because it will encrease the loop temperature to Tamb (fans are moving the air and it can't go under ambient temp, it's physics); you have to dissipate the hot side of tec's as much as possible with some radiators and good fan's, taking care of building a good tec wb which has to be perfectly sealed from cold to hot side in order to avoid losing efficiency of tec's due to heat transfer

As for my setup I was looking on 12726TEC model, give it a look, I dont think that there are other better tec's, what do you think about?

[bds71]

Well, you shouldn't use a radiator on the cold side loop because it will encrease the loop temperature to Tamb (fans are moving the air and it can't go under ambient temp, it's physics)

the point is: i don't want subambient temperatures (or rather, i don't want condensation). i don't have the setup for adding insulation. i want ambient temps at load. maybe a few degrees below, but not to the point of condensation. i don't mind a few degrees above.

As for my setup I was looking on 12726TEC model, give it a look, I dont think that there are other better tec's, what do you think about?

i think it's a fine TEC - if you have a PSU that can handle it. but, as was already stated, my current PSU can only handle 20A per 12V channel, that's why i went with two 10A TEC's.

[zipdogso]

i think it's a fine TEC - if you have a PSU that can handle it. but, as was already stated, my current PSU can only handle 20A per 12V channel, that's why i went with two 10A TEC's.

And therein lies part of your problem....you need to decide your target then get the TECs to get there then if neccessary get a suitable dedicated power supply, not a PC supply, a decentpower supply is a much better idea anyway for the fact you can adjust the output, if nothing else. Limiting yourself to the TECs you can power with a supply , just because you already have it is a bit of the wrong way to go about things. Properly setup TECs are not cheap......
It is a fact that TECs work much better with a lower Dt at lower power so generally you are better off aiming at bigger TECs than you need given that if the max Q at the power you use is higher than the actual heat at the coldside the Dt will naturally lower. Giving rise to a more efficient system. The idea that many people have of getting TECs with a Qmax roughly equal to the heat they wish to dissipate is totally wrong. I would say you need to aim at least double not to run the TECs really cold but to improve efficiency.

As Ultrasonic 2 said using TECs to get ambient + 5º is lame use for such a expensive setup.