Results 1 to 8 of 8

Thread: An Open Letter to semiconductor companies

  1. #1
    YouTube Addict
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Klaatu barada nikto
    Posts
    17,574

    An Open Letter to semiconductor companies

    Ever since the IBM standard, PCs have used DRAM because it provided the greatest value per dollar for the temporary storage of values in RAM. This is because the advantage of DRAM is its structural simplicity: only one transistor and a capacitor are required per bit, compared to six transistors in SRAM. This allows DRAM to reach very high densities.

    However this structural simplicity brings about its largest weakness, DRAM is volatile memory and because of leakage, requires the cells to have their values periodically refreshed and during which times, the cells can not be accessed. To minimize the effect, a staggered refresh rate is generally used. But each and every time a refresh happens, it consumes additional power and thus reduces the energy efficiency of the system.

    Since modern systems now can cheaply have more memory than they currently require (8GB for $60), we should trade what we have excess of for what we want more of. Which in this case is capacity for speed and power efficiency.

    Hence I propose that for the next RAM standard, that Intel, AMD, VIA, ARM, etc should move from DRAM to SRAM (Static random-access memory). Which will provide the following benefits at the following cost. SRAM is faster and significantly less power hungry (especially idle) than DRAM. It is therefore used where either bandwidth or low power, or both, are principal considerations. SRAM is also easier to control (interface to) and generally more truly random access than modern types of DRAM. Due to a more complex internal structure, SRAM is less dense than DRAM. Which means per a given dollar, gives you approximately 1/6 to 1/16 the number of bytes that DRAM does.

    But assuming that bandwidth and power consumption are not reason enough for the switch, the best argument for SRAM has been and always be latency. SRAM wins every single time, that is why modern CPU cores carry moderately sized SRAM caches instead of possibly much larger DRAM caches. When latency trumps capacity, SRAM wins every time.

    So what do you think? Am I wrong to suggest that we should simplify modern memory controllers, speed up RAM by a significant margin, and accept the minor additional cost of switching to SRAM?

    To users of the forum: comments, questions, or suggestions?
    Fast computers breed slow, lazy programmers
    The price of reliability is the pursuit of the utmost simplicity. It is a price which the very rich find most hard to pay.
    http://www.lighterra.com/papers/modernmicroprocessors/
    Modern Ram, makes an old overclocker miss BH-5 and the fun it was

  2. #2
    Xtreme Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    345
    should atleast be a good option for the hardware interested of us
    I would buy
    TRU/i7920@4.0...AsusP6X58D...6G/Gskill(1603)...EvgaGtxTITAN...80GIntelG2...X-FI/680z...CorsairHX1000...thermaltakeXIII...HP LP-3065...8.1pro x64
    TRU/i7920@3.6...AsusP6TWSPRO...12G/OCZ...XFX5770...2x64GSamSungSLC/Areca1110 raid0...2.8TB storage...SeasonicX650...CoolerMaster810...HP LP-3065...8.1pro x64

  3. #3
    Xtreme X.I.P. Particle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    3,219
    It would be reasonable if memory controllers could handle modules of either type, modules were physically and electrically compatible with sticks of DRAM, and end users could simply decide which to buy. Otherwise, I think it wouldn't be practical. Leading-edge sticks would be either 1GB or 512 MB, and that's just not enough RAM in 2-4 slots.
    Particle's First Rule of Online Technical Discussion:
    As a thread about any computer related subject has its length approach infinity, the likelihood and inevitability of a poorly constructed AMD vs. Intel fight also exponentially increases.

    Rule 1A:
    Likewise, the frequency of a car pseudoanalogy to explain a technical concept increases with thread length. This will make many people chuckle, as computer people are rarely knowledgeable about vehicular mechanics.

    Rule 2:
    When confronted with a post that is contrary to what a poster likes, believes, or most often wants to be correct, the poster will pick out only minor details that are largely irrelevant in an attempt to shut out the conflicting idea. The core of the post will be left alone since it isn't easy to contradict what the person is actually saying.

    Rule 2A:
    When a poster cannot properly refute a post they do not like (as described above), the poster will most likely invent fictitious counter-points and/or begin to attack the other's credibility in feeble ways that are dramatic but irrelevant. Do not underestimate this tactic, as in the online world this will sway many observers. Do not forget: Correctness is decided only by what is said last, the most loudly, or with greatest repetition.

    Rule 3:
    When it comes to computer news, 70% of Internet rumors are outright fabricated, 20% are inaccurate enough to simply be discarded, and about 10% are based in reality. Grains of salt--become familiar with them.

    Remember: When debating online, everyone else is ALWAYS wrong if they do not agree with you!

    Random Tip o' the Whatever
    You just can't win. If your product offers feature A instead of B, people will moan how A is stupid and it didn't offer B. If your product offers B instead of A, they'll likewise complain and rant about how anyone's retarded cousin could figure out A is what the market wants.

  4. #4
    I am Xtreme
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    France
    Posts
    9,060
    How much of a performance benefit would we get for 6x-16x prices? I don't think it makes sense from price/performance PoV.
    Donate to XS forums
    Quote Originally Posted by jayhall0315 View Post
    If you are really extreme, you never let informed facts or the scientific method hold you back from your journey to the wrong answer.

  5. #5
    I am Xtreme zanzabar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    SF bay area, CA
    Posts
    15,871
    in terms of numerical performance its like good ddr3 to l3.

    the main problem with sram though is that its much higher in transistor count than dram (like 4-8x as much). but the sticks would cost about the same just about 4x less space so u would run 1GB sticks now and 2GB next year based on the transistor count, but it would be awesome since u could store to it and it would make sleep mode and shutdown the same for power consumption, but holding the data for that long and not reinstalling the memory would lead to problems with stability (just look if u dont restart windows every week what happens)
    5930k, R5E, samsung 8GBx4 d-die, vega 56, wd gold 8TB, wd 4TB red, 2TB raid1 wd blue 5400
    samsung 840 evo 500GB, HP EX 1TB NVME , CM690II, swiftech h220, corsair 750hxi

  6. #6
    I am Xtreme Ket's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    6,822
    A nice idea... in theory. The specs for DDR4 have been floating around for a while though and if I remember right DDR4 will be the first true 128bit module instead of these old musty 64bit modules which have been WAY overdue a bitdepth upgrade for years. Personally, I'm looking forward to true 128bit modules.

    "Prowler"
    X570 Tomahawk | R7 3700X | 2x16GB Klevv BoltX @ 3600MHz CL18 | Powercolor 6800XT Red Devil | Xonar DX 7.1 | 2TB Barracuda | 256GB & 512GB Asgard NVMe drives | 2x DVD & Blu-Ray opticals | EVGA Supernova 1000w G2

    Cooling:

    6x 140mm LED fans, 1x 200mm LED fan | Modified CoolerMaster Masterliquid 240

    Asrock Z77 thread! | Asrock Z77 Extreme6 Review | Asrock P67 Extreme4 Review | Asrock P67 Extreme4/6 Pro3 thread | Asrock Z68 Extreme4 thread | Asrock Z68 Extreme4 Review | Asrock Z68 Gen3 Thread | 8GB G-Skill review | TK 2.ZERO homepage | P5Q series mBIOS thread
    Modded X570 Aorus UEFIs

  7. #7
    YouTube Addict
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Klaatu barada nikto
    Posts
    17,574
    Quote Originally Posted by Particle View Post
    It would be reasonable if memory controllers could handle modules of either type, modules were physically and electrically compatible with sticks of DRAM, and end users could simply decide which to buy. Otherwise, I think it wouldn't be practical. Leading-edge sticks would be either 1GB or 512 MB, and that's just not enough RAM in 2-4 slots.
    Then what exactly in your perspective would be a more reasonable capacity per stick?

    Quote Originally Posted by zalbard View Post
    How much of a performance benefit would we get for 6x-16x prices? I don't think it makes sense from price/performance PoV.
    Assuming that you expect byte for byte identical capacity, 75% or greater reduction in latency. The effect on performance depends on the task involved. For certain easy to cache applications there wouldn't be a benefit. For other hard to cache applications the benefit would exceed 200% increase in single thread performance.

    Now remember, the argument is not 8+GB sticks of SRAM, rather 1-2GB sticks of SRAM.
    Fast computers breed slow, lazy programmers
    The price of reliability is the pursuit of the utmost simplicity. It is a price which the very rich find most hard to pay.
    http://www.lighterra.com/papers/modernmicroprocessors/
    Modern Ram, makes an old overclocker miss BH-5 and the fun it was

  8. #8
    Xtreme CCIE
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    3,842
    My understanding is that the next notable iteration of RAM will not use the same materials that it does today, whether it be the memrisistor or another technology. I don't think it'll be here for DDR4 - that's already sailing - but DDR5 is a very possible candidate for it.

    So yeah... fundamental changes to the materials and designs of the sticks is already underway...
    Dual CCIE (Route\Switch and Security) at your disposal. Have a Cisco-related or other network question? My PM box is always open.

    Xtreme Network:
    - Cisco 3560X-24P PoE Switch
    - Cisco ASA 5505 Firewall
    - Cisco 4402 Wireless LAN Controller
    - Cisco 3502i Access Point

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •