Official EK statement - Nickel Plating Issues

[NaeKuh]

guys gabe wanted me to correct some info.

he says his blocks arent nickle plated but chrome plated seeing how its the final external layer.

[DarthBeavis]

and people laughed at Danger Den for using unobtainium in their blocks. who is laughing now?

[zalbard]

Why not make a pool if members after this even and EK explanations are still confident in their products? can be usefull for EK for plan their next move

Done, please vote.
Might need another poll to see how people feel about the resolution and if they are going to keep buying EK nickel blocks or EK products in general.

Edit: heh, it's gone. And I don't see why since it was made in order to just gather some statistics...

[shazza]

I moved the Poll thread to the on-hold area ... so it can be reviewed by the Admins first.

[zalbard]

I moved the Poll thread to the on-hold area ... so it can be reviewed by the Admins first.

Shazza, could you please edit one option ("Not sure" one)? Add some note saying that the blocks have been inspected and look fine. If you return the thread, that is.

[stangracin3]

I moved the Poll thread to the on-hold area ... so it can be reviewed by the Admins first.

k


zalbard, do you remember what a disastor that waterlogged's dead pump with a top poll ended up being?
i don't think that will end up any better if the admins give the go ahead

[zalbard]

It's the numbers that are important, we've already seen the pictures and have a thread to discuss all this in. May as well keep the poll for the numbers and keep the thread strictly moderated since it hasn't been made for discussing anything but rather to gather some numbers and info.
A lot of people are saying that it's only those with damaged blocks, or without EK blocks at all that are posting and complaining, I'd like to know whether that's true and if the majority is happy with their recent purchases.

[SovietKitsch]

I think it's a great idea but everyone would automatically choose the option against EK. You'd probably have to moderate it so there's pictures to every yes vote just to verify. It could turn into a nightmare.

[soxism]

i'll Say thankyou for the Information EK.

Tho, i Will not buy Nickle Plated From EK again. If i Cant use Distilled Water with PT Nuke or Silver. I'll Look for a Brank that CAN and DOES alllow us to use whatever coolant we want. EK has up untill this point had a great record, and i feel this hasnt been handled too well and quiet a few people will most likely never buy EK products again. Its a shame because it only Harms EK in the Long run.

[shazza]

Guys - we're not going to post the poll. We already have two large threads with the issue, and others are popping up with more detail about specifics.

I understand the idea of the poll is well-intentioned (is that a word?), but we still won't be able to get a true representation, as not everyone comes to forums. I'd say that most of the people who visit here and have been affected have posted.

EK has posted their findings and response, and people are getting the opportunity to voice their opinion. We'll leave it at that for now.

[dejanh]

guys gabe wanted me to correct some info.

he says his blocks arent nickle plated but chrome plated seeing how its the final external layer.

There are people who did not know this?! Really?!

Swiftech has always used chrome, and the unmentionables are also using chrome in their plating process. There is so much disinformation going on everywhere with this nickel plating mess it is beyond words.

Here are a couple of facts, market and otherwise.

By volume EK probably sells the most blocks, certainly the most nickel plated blocks. I would love to get statistics on actual failure rates out of the total shipped in the last year but nobody seems to want to go there. Instead everyone just screams "EK sucks". What sucks is some people's ability to reason logically.

Swiftech chromes stuff so they are out of this equation all together, not to mention that they plate really thick, order of magnitude thicker than others. Together, EK and Swiftech probably hold the majority of this market.

BP, Aquacomputer, Watercool, etc. and others all pooled together barely sell any blocks so not much to discuss there in terms of failure. The volume is low and it is easy to have good QC oversight at all times. The only larger volume here (namely BP) has had these issues in the past. Hell, I have BP fittings where nickel flaked off right now.

Edit: Final tidbit of trivia...those that think that they can just easily move to one of the other German manufacturers have clearly not looked at the total cost after shipping and conversion. You will be very unpleasantly surprised when you see it. I ought to know. I bought stuff from pretty much everyone already. Not to even mention the generally very limited supply.

[NaeKuh]

There are people who did not know this?! Really?!

no we all knew it.

but gabe asked me to restate it one more time to separate his blocks from all this nightmare thats going on.

And as i said, gabe doesnt lie, he doesnt cheat us, and if he messes up, he admits it, so he is just covering himself one more time.


Ummm and if u ask me.... the longest player in plating waterblocks has been koolance.
And i have yet to see someone rant about a koolance plating job that wasnt a stopper plug.

I have to admit, they royally messed up on the steel stopper plug, but after that its been golden.

The last time we noticed plating fail was on the KL-340 i believe... the one thats a gignormous block that would give the apogeeXT even a good run for its money in mass and size only.

But they quickly fixed that... said sorry, and issued out replacements at their expense.

People are looking for eK to do what koolance did.
Pay for their own messups.. like a CS above all company would do.

[zalbard]

Guys - we're not going to post the poll. We already have two large threads with the issue, and others are popping up with more detail about specifics.

I understand the idea of the poll is well-intentioned (is that a word?), but we still won't be able to get a true representation, as not everyone comes to forums. I'd say that most of the people who visit here and have been affected have posted.

EK has posted their findings and response, and people are getting the opportunity to voice their opinion. We'll leave it at that for now.

Fair enough, thanks for letting us know.

[NaeKuh]

Guys - we're not going to post the poll. We already have two large threads with the issue, and others are popping up with more detail about specifics.

I understand the idea of the poll is well-intentioned (is that a word?), but we still won't be able to get a true representation, as not everyone comes to forums. I'd say that most of the people who visit here and have been affected have posted.

EK has posted their findings and response, and people are getting the opportunity to voice their opinion. We'll leave it at that for now.

yeah they did but no one is happy with it.

I admit, some of it is good stuff, and some of it is just way out there.

What is apparent is i have YET to hear a IM SORRY from EK.
Instead we got.. from our testing.. this... from the reports that... we must use premix.

Eddy... seriously?? take some time to have someone who knows how to type better english type and step away from the keyboard.

As its going right now... when vapor said the making of scars... its turning into a straight up beheading.


What we would like:

1. The vendor admitting its plating failing, and not trying to shill it on our coolant.
2. The vendor FIXING the plating process, and informing us why it was bad, and HOW they fixed it.
3. The vendor offering a form of Advance RMA... (we will pay for it if we get new blocks first), to meet half way with people who have fubard blocks.
4. Once again the vendor appologizing for the plating f' up.


But we have yet to hear 1 and 4 yet... and it made CM type way more then he normally types too, and CM is usually a quiet guy unless he is very disgruntled...

[dejanh]

no we all knew it.

but gabe asked me to restate it one more time to separate his blocks from all this nightmare thats going on.

And as i said, gabe doesnt lie, he doesnt cheat us, and if he messes up, he admits it, so he is just covering himself one more time.


Ummm and if u ask me.... the longest player in plating waterblocks has been koolance.
And i have yet to see someone rant about a koolance plating job that wasnt a stopper plug.

I have to admit, they royally messed up on the steel stopper plug, but after that its been golden.

The last time we noticed plating fail was on the KL-340 i believe... the one thats a gignormous block that would give the apogeeXT even a good run for its money in mass and size only.

But they quickly fixed that... said sorry, and issued out replacements at their expense.

People are looking for eK to do what koolance did.
Pay for their own messups.. like a CS above all company would do.

It's not about longest, it's about most volume. I do agree with you that EK needs to step up and do more. Personally, I think even offering a $20 per person credit for future purchases from EK would be enough to offset the cost of shipping. It pleases the crowds and gives incentive for people to come back and buy from EK again.

[Xrim]

Well I for instance is from Sweden (Europe) and have a "bad" 6970 block. I havent torn apart my HF Supreme yet but I don't have high hopes. I run distilled with pure piece silver from a local goldsmith.

[stangracin3]

No RMA for a block is going to magically fix my system, but by that same token it's not what I was asking for, either. I simply wanted Eddy and the rest of you to see some nickel does flake off, and that a look at the plating is necessary.

I won't lie, I'd feel a d*** sight better if I got an apology to the community, but honestly I expect no such thing, if for no other reason than indemnification.

I'll still help explain what I can, but I wrote the whole loop off as loss and I'm gonna try and move forward.

i'm not saying it doesn't, in your case though i think you had something else wrong since it was 14 months old


now guys can we please settle down?

[dejanh]

These reports have been trickling in for a while.

I'm gathering info based on some items I have here in my possession, and I am close to having enough info to actually explain some of what's going on.

Stand back, I'm gonna do science.

[Annirak]

These reports have been trickling in for a while.

I'm gathering info based on some items I have here in my possession, and I am close to having enough info to actually explain some of what's going on.

Stand back, I'm gonna do science.

*claps for XKCD reference*

[Petra]

Eddy, did you read the 43 page report you commissioned? Because, the way I see it, the report doesn't really support the explanation you're offering.

Seeing as how the report uses "block 1" as the primary example and source of evidence, I will do so as well.

The failure analysis of the first cold plate studied (exposed to distilled water with a silver coil for a period of one month) concluded on page 15-17 that crevice corrosion (which was the same cause of the failure, undermining, and exfoliation of the Apogee GTX's rather nice plating job) was the cause of the initial plating failure--all of the galvanic corrosion that is brought up is just a distraction since it results from the initial plating failure (according to the report). Crevice corrosion has little to do with the coolant or additives used (unless you're purposefully trying to accelerate the reaction by making your coolant substantially more acidic, like on page 32), as the pH of the fluid in such a situation can easily swing outside of a corrosion inhibitor's effective range (again, just look at the GTX). In addition, the report does absolutely nothing to explain why the presence of silver metal would cause or accelerate the crevice corrosion which caused the initial plating failure. Crevice corrosion is not, it self, a galvanic reaction. So, while the silver may play into the explanation of a galvanic reaction taking place after the initial plating failure, it does not explain the root cause of the problem.

I should point out that even though crevice corrosion caused the failure of the old Apogee GTX blocks, it was physical damage to the plating resulting from the installation of metal fittings which facilitated the undermining of the plating. If the plating hadn't been damaged in the first place, it probably wouldn't have failed within the part's useful life… just as any quality nickel plating shouldn't fail in this manner (especially if it's just coating copper).

Eddy, I'm still inclined to view your current plating process as suspect… largely because your nickel plated products from the era of the nVidia G80 didn't seem to have this problem--I'd know. Also, no other manufacturer seems to be having issues.

Now, I CAN plate stuff all by myself, so I am not speaking out my hinder parts here. But if you look at the science behind it-that CANNOT happen, unless there is already a flaw in the block plating. Do you need more proof? I would cite the extremely high incidence not only of other companies but of older EK plating faring like tanks for years with anything you can imagine in those loops.

[snip]

Now, here's the part I want everyone to make sure they grab hold of-that report documents a completely possible scenario. It simply leaves off the fact that copper and nickel have to be in contact in a loop with enough impurities to create a weak battery, and then it destroys itself. Do those conditions exist if you use PT-Nuke? No, because copper sulfate is not readily breaking down to free copper ions and sulfur. Its valence shells are full, so it doesn't want to make compounds, and that's part (and only part) of galvanic corrosion.

Silver is noble enough that it should not have any issues with either nickel or copper. In fact, in loops with only copper and silver (where the largest gap in nobility lies) there is no corrosion. Nickel is in between those, so it should in theory react even less. But, you can force it if the items are in contact in the loop-like if the plating has gaps.

A note of disclosure and some history for those who haven't been around very long: Yes, I'm the guy who founded PTS/Petra'sTech in 2005, introduced the Nuke -Cu (copper sulfate) biocide in 2006 and Nuke -PHN (benzalkonium chloride) biocide in 2008(?...can't recall offhand), and helped Ian get the silver KillCoil thing going. However, Petra's Tech Shop was sold to Gary/Sidewinder Computer Systems, Inc. on Dec. 31, 2009, I no longer have any interests (financial or otherwise) in PTS, I am not here as any sort of representative of Gary/PTS/Sidewinder, I have absolutely nothing to do with the operation of PTS/Sidewinder, and have no interests (financial or otherwise) in the Nuke line of biocides or Ian's KillCoils. I do, however, offer advice and information to any who are interested as a way of continuing to help the water cooling community--having experienced it from all sides over the past 10 years (enthusiast, customer, reseller, distributor, designer, tester, manufacturer, PR liaison, etc.), I occasionally have something useful to contribute. That said, feel free to ignore me.

[aqualab]

No RMA for a block is going to magically fix my system, .

it's funny ( actually not at all ) We have opposite problems , me all my WC gear are good , but the electronic is scrap.

[wermad]

I think its safe to say that there is a ton of p.o. people and a poll is not necessary

[Scubar]

I'm looking into MetalX B-929 to strip the nickel. I won't send my blocks and pay for shipping, that's ridiculous. Plus, once the nickel is all gone, I can run copper with distilled with ease. I use to run all copper until I jumped on the nickel bandwagon, what a nightmare

Are you sure thats ok to do, iirc arent the copper blocks treated with oils and other things after production anyway to stop corrosio. These are stripped off before the nickel plating is done so if you remove the plating your effectively leaving the copper very bare and exposed to the elements. you would need to recoat them with whatever it is that they were originally coated with ?

I could be wrong so if i am someone please correct me.

[nvmc]

So tl;dr EK tries to blame the users for the shortcomings of the idiot they sub their plating out to.


I haven't read the whole thread, but a few problems in the OP; distilled water becomes electrolytic as soon as you open the bottle, and Nickel will not corrode significantly under water cooling conditions, nor in the time span it has happened.

I know which WC parts company I'm not buying from again. Other companies have had some major screw ups too (Swiftech aluminium Apogee, Koolance steel plugs), but at least they didn't patronise and blame the user, as EK is so fond of doing.

[Thomas FJ]

Eddy, did you read the 43 page report you commissioned? Because, the way I see it, the report doesn't really support the explanation you're offering.

Seeing as how the report uses "block 1" as the primary example and source of evidence, I will do so as well.

The failure analysis of the first cold plate studied (exposed to distilled water with a silver coil for a period of one month) concluded on page 15-17 that crevice corrosion (which was the same cause of the failure, undermining, and exfoliation of the Apogee GTX's rather nice plating job) was the cause of the initial plating failure--all of the galvanic corrosion that is brought up is just a distraction since it results from the initial plating failure (according to the report). Crevice corrosion has little to do with the coolant or additives used (unless you're purposefully trying to accelerate the reaction by making your coolant substantially more acidic, like on page 32), as the pH of the fluid in such a situation can easily swing outside of a corrosion inhibitor's effective range (again, just look at the GTX). In addition, the report does absolutely nothing to explain why the presence of silver metal would cause or accelerate the crevice corrosion which caused the initial plating failure. Crevice corrosion is not, it self, a galvanic reaction. So, while the silver may play into the explanation of a galvanic reaction taking place after the initial plating failure, it does not explain the root cause of the problem.

I should point out that even though crevice corrosion caused the failure of the old Apogee GTX blocks, it was physical damage to the plating resulting from the installation of metal fittings which facilitated the undermining of the plating. If the plating hadn't been damaged in the first place, it probably wouldn't have failed within the part's useful life… just as any quality nickel plating shouldn't fail in this manner (especially if it's just coating copper).

Eddy, I'm still inclined to view your current plating process as suspect… largely because your nickel plated products from the era of the nVidia G80 didn't seem to have this problem--I'd know. Also, no other manufacturer seems to be having issues.






A note of disclosure and some history for those who haven't been around very long: Yes, I'm the guy who founded PTS/Petra'sTech in 2005, introduced the Nuke -Cu (copper sulfate) biocide in 2006 and Nuke -PHN (benzalkonium chloride) biocide in 2008(?...can't recall offhand), and helped Ian get the silver KillCoil thing going. However, Petra's Tech Shop was sold to Gary/Sidewinder Computer Systems, Inc. on Dec. 31, 2009, I no longer have any interests (financial or otherwise) in PTS, I am not here as any sort of representative of Gary/PTS/Sidewinder, I have absolutely nothing to do with the operation of PTS/Sidewinder, and have no interests (financial or otherwise) in the Nuke line of biocides or Ian's KillCoils. I do, however, offer advice and information to any who are interested as a way of continuing to help the water cooling community--having experienced it from all sides over the past 10 years (enthusiast, customer, reseller, distributor, designer, tester, manufacturer, PR liaison, etc.), I occasionally have something useful to contribute. That said, feel free to ignore me.

I'm the former owner of CoolerKit and I was among the very first, if not the first, reseller of EK waterblocks outside Slovenia.
We've been selling their plated blocks since 2006 and haven't had or seen any plating problems until now...

This doesn't 100% proof it's a new problem, but combining this with all the other observations, the smell of the smoking gun is undeniably strong in that direction!
Would you please comment on why you don't think we haven't seen any prior plating problems Eddy?
/Thomas