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Thread: SSD Write Endurance 25nm Vs 34nm

  1. #2251
    SSDabuser Christopher's Avatar
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    Mushkin Chronos Deluxe 60 Update, Day 27

    05 2
    Retired Block Count

    B1 12
    Wear Range Delta

    F1 255227
    Host Writes

    E9 196853
    NAND Writes

    E6 100
    Life Curve

    E7 10
    Life Left

    Average 126.49MB/s Avg
    RST drivers, Asus M4g-z

    620 Hours Work (24hrs since the last update)
    Time 25 days 20hours

    12 GiB Minimum Free Space
    The AnvilPro beta9 preview's 500ms/thousand files is working, and I've reduced the pause a few seconds.

    If it runs overnight, I can declare victory on the 2281 TRIM/delete problem, but the additional loops per hour might be hurting speed slightly.Mushkin Day 27.JPG

    Thanks for the preview, Anvil. So far so good.
    Last edited by Christopher; 10-18-2011 at 05:24 PM.

  2. #2252
    Uber Raid King Computurd's Avatar
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    but I sure do have an unreasonable fondness for my Indilinx units -- all of them.
    couldnt agree more, excerpt the complaining part LOL. seriously LOVE my indys, still have them all. dont even need my 8 member array, but i keep it for sentimental reasons, seriously i love them.

    i have 12 of them spread out around here....was going to endurance test one of them for the sake of science, just cant bring myself to do it
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  3. #2253
    SLC One_Hertz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    It will be interesting to see what One_Hertz finds.
    Soldered on the power connector today. I am afraid the SSD stays in the busy state permanently

  4. #2254
    SSDabuser Christopher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Computurd View Post
    couldnt agree more, excerpt the complaining part LOL. seriously LOVE my indys, still have them all. dont even need my 8 member array, but i keep it for sentimental reasons, seriously i love them.

    i have 12 of them spread out around here....was going to endurance test one of them for the sake of science, just cant bring myself to do it
    It's not like I didn't know that random performance gets worse as capacity decreases... I didn't necessarily need an expert to testify on that subject, but Eric seems to be a nice guy, and I'm glad he's still sticking his head in the door over here.

    I sure as hell didn't need the last two Indy drives I bought. I put my oldest Agility 60 in my Dell D630 laptop, just because I like the drive so much. It sure as hell isn't the fastest Sata II drive I have laying around, but using any of the others just doesn't feel right. Weird, isn't it? I surely don't feel that way about my GPUs. Like I said, it's irrational.

  5. #2255
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    Quote Originally Posted by One_Hertz View Post
    Soldered on the power connector today. I am afraid the SSD stays in the busy state permanently
    You mean you cannot get the SSD to be recognized by the BIOS and to mount the filesystem in Windows?

    That is what I expected (although I hoped otherwise). I guess that is what Samsung 470s do when their flash is not only worn out for writing, but also worn out for storing and readback. It makes sense, I suppose, since the index of LBA to flash address must be stored on flash, and if it cannot read the flash, it cannot load its index, so it cannot do anything.

    Feel free to run any experiments you can think of, including destructive ones.

  6. #2256
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    So then what is the consensus ? Can we not read the Samsung because it genuinely failed or because of the connector damage ?

  7. #2257
    Moderator Anvil's Avatar
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    Kingston SSDNow 40GB (X25-V)

    405.20TB Host writes
    Reallocated sectors : 12

    MD5 OK

    37.56MiB/s on avg (~10 hours)

    --

    Corsair Force 3 120GB

    01 84/50 (Raw read error rate)
    05 2 (Retired Block count)
    B1 65 (Wear range delta)
    E6 100 (Life curve status)
    E7 49 (SSD Life left)
    E9 198247 (Raw writes)
    F1 264008 (Host writes)

    106.25MiB/s on avg (~10 hours)

    power on hours : 780

    WR delta looks to just keep on growing, strange!
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  8. #2258
    SLC One_Hertz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    You mean you cannot get the SSD to be recognized by the BIOS and to mount the filesystem in Windows?

    That is what I expected (although I hoped otherwise). I guess that is what Samsung 470s do when their flash is not only worn out for writing, but also worn out for storing and readback. It makes sense, I suppose, since the index of LBA to flash address must be stored on flash, and if it cannot read the flash, it cannot load its index, so it cannot do anything.

    Feel free to run any experiments you can think of, including destructive ones.
    I have specialized hardware for these things so I don't use the BIOS, but yes the SSD never becomes ready and never gives access to any data.

    Quote Originally Posted by bulanula View Post
    So then what is the consensus ? Can we not read the Samsung because it genuinely failed or because of the connector damage ?
    I am quite certain the connector is fine. The drive IS getting proper power and it is displaying the BUSY registry so the controller is at least somewhat starting up; it just doesn't work.

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    A little update from me:
    I'll be joining in with 2 more ssd from monday. Those will be:
    - Intel X25-M G1 80GB
    - MTRON Pro SSD 32GB

    What makes them interesting is 50nm mlc and G1 controller without trim for the intel and slc nand for the MTRON. I'll post all the usual data before the test is started.
    I would like to thank GullLars for selling them to me.
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  10. #2260
    Registered User Hopalong X's Avatar
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  11. #2261
    SSDabuser Christopher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B.A.T View Post
    A little update from me:
    I'll be joining in with 2 more ssd from monday. Those will be:
    - Intel X25-M G1 80GB
    - MTRON Pro SSD 32GB

    What makes them interesting is 50nm mlc and G1 controller without trim for the intel and slc nand for the MTRON. I'll post all the usual data before the test is started.
    I would like to thank GullLars for selling them to me.
    Doesn't the MTRON use the Indilinx controller?

    Anvil, I don't think the 500ms helped as much as I thought. It crashed during file deletion again this morning.
    Last edited by Christopher; 10-19-2011 at 08:01 AM.

  12. #2262
    Moderator Anvil's Avatar
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    The MTRON is much older than the Indilinx stuff, iirc it's their own controller and technology.

    Strange that it didn't help but I'm not surprised.
    The new fw has a fix for TRIM so lets see what it brings, I expect most will make the new firmware available this week.
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  13. #2263
    Xtreme Addict bluestang's Avatar
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    M225->Vertex Turbo 64GB Update:

    534.69 TiB (587.90 TB) total
    1460.48 hours
    10847 Raw Wear
    118.41 MB/s avg for the last 16.33 hours (on W7 x64)
    MD5 OK
    C4-Erase Failure Block Count (Realloc Sectors) from 9 to 10.
    (1=Bank 6/Block 2406; 2=Bank 3/Block 3925; 3=Bank 0/Block 1766; 4=Bank 0/Block 829; 5=Bank 4/Block 3191; 6=Bank 7/Block 937; 7=Bank 7/Block 1980; 8=Bank 7/Block 442; 9=Bank 7/Block 700; 10=Bank 2/Block 1066)

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  14. #2264
    SSDabuser Christopher's Avatar
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    Well, as long as the Mushkin only has about 12GB of static data, it doesn't matter. For some reason, even with the additional delay in beta9, I still have to compensate by lowering minFreeSpace [since I have much more static data now]. I'll be upgrading to the new FW, but Mushkin doesn't want to say that there is a 3.3.2 FW, much less that it's going to be along shortly.

    If it's going to crash while deleting files, it will do it rather soonish. I'm back to about 10K+ files per loop, so that should solve the problem in any event, somehow.

  15. #2265
    Xtreme Addict bluestang's Avatar
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    Anyone have an idea of what the H and L mean in the Bad Block List below where it shows for example (1760,H,E) or (3191,L,E).

    SmartViewer10.19.2011.png
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  16. #2266
    SSDabuser Christopher's Avatar
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    So the grey listings were initial bad blocks (marked with I), and the red were the new ones...

    H and L could mean HIGH or LOW...
    I can't figure out what any of the letters mean. Does P mean program failure, and E mean erase failure?

    Bluestang, you posted the link for the viewer, but I couldn't figure out why it wouldn't work. I just assumed I had to use it from a dos environment, or without AHCI.

  17. #2267
    SSDabuser Christopher's Avatar
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    Double Post
    Last edited by Christopher; 10-19-2011 at 09:05 AM.

  18. #2268
    Moderator Anvil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    Well, as long as the Mushkin only has about 12GB of static data, it doesn't matter. For some reason, even with the additional delay in beta9, I still have to compensate by lowering minFreeSpace [since I have much more static data now]. I'll be upgrading to the new FW, but Mushkin doesn't want to say that there is a 3.3.2 FW, much less that it's going to be along shortly.
    ...
    Corsair has the same "policy", they won't tell, I think they should make an exception, this is a serious bug for those that are affected.

    Patriot has already told that it will be made available this week. (I've got a WildFire 240GB)
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  19. #2269
    SSDabuser Christopher's Avatar
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    The big announcement that OCZ made makes me more confident that, contrary to what had been said in the past, that firmware alone can fix the problem. It won't require Intel to intervene with new oroms, or any of the other non-SF solutions.

    When it releases for the Mushkin, its going in the SandForce torture chamber.

    If the new FW is really the cure-all solution, you would think ever vendor would at least acknowledge it's existence.

    UPDATE
    I finally broke the 200TB NAND writes on the Mushkin, but WRD seems to be spiking again due to more static data and less minFreeSpace.
    Last edited by Christopher; 10-19-2011 at 09:49 AM.

  20. #2270
    Xtreme Addict bluestang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    So the grey listings were initial bad blocks (marked with I), and the red were the new ones...

    H and L could mean HIGH or LOW...
    I can't figure out what any of the letters mean. Does P mean program failure, and E mean erase failure?

    Bluestang, you posted the link for the viewer, but I couldn't figure out why it wouldn't work. I just assumed I had to use it from a dos environment, or without AHCI.
    Yes, grey are intitial bad blocks (B8) andthe reds are the program (C3) and erase (C4) failures. I don't think it's as simple as High or Low.

    And at the top under the white lettering "BAD BLOCK LIST" there is a legend of what the letters mean in grey, at least for the second part of the initials.

    It works under windows. Just double click "SmartViewer_2_21.exe" and a DOS style window prompt appears with what to do.
    Last edited by bluestang; 10-19-2011 at 10:17 AM.
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  21. #2271
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    m4
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    Avg speed 89.16 MiB/s.
    AD gone from 207 to 203.
    P/E 12287.
    Value 01 (raw read error rate) has changed from 4 to 5.
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    Still no reallocated sectors
    M4-CT064 M4SSD2 SATA Disk Device_64GB_1GB-20111019-1859-3.pngM4-CT064 M4SSD2 SATA Disk Device_64GB_1GB-20111019-1859-2.png

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  22. #2272
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    Wow, 4x the life span. Now I wouldn't even know where to start guessing of when the M4 will start failing. 850-900GB sounds good for a start, maybe 1PB!

    Good Luck with the other drives there BAT. G1 drive will probably suffer what I had with my G2's not being able to trim properly in Raid. That SLC drive though, hope you got a PC that will be running for the next few years to test that one
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  23. #2273
    SSDabuser Christopher's Avatar
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    Bluestang,

    I just forgot that the Indilinx wiper and smartviewer don't work with RST on my ICH8m C2Duo Lappy.

    I have 66 bad blocks on the older Agility, but they're all initial bad blocks.

    EDIT

    That Mtron might have really high WA/questionable wear leveling, so while it might last a long, long time, it might not be optimized in the same way an X25-E is.

    That's why you have to do the test... if they lasted as long as the manufacturer said, their wouldn't really be a need to endurance test them.

    Very curious to see how they work out. I know the G1 Intel drives aren't quite as good as the G2 (without trim), but should still be very interesting as well.




    I've been thinking of another drive to test with, so I'm taking suggestions.
    Last edited by Christopher; 10-19-2011 at 11:03 AM.

  24. #2274
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    Quote Originally Posted by deathman20 View Post
    Wow, 4x the life span. Now I wouldn't even know where to start guessing of when the M4 will start failing. 850-900GB sounds good for a start, maybe 1PB!

    Good Luck with the other drives there BAT. G1 drive will probably suffer what I had with my G2's not being able to trim properly in Raid. That SLC drive though, hope you got a PC that will be running for the next few years to test that one
    I'll probably put the mtron in my foldingrig where it can work for as long as it takes.
    I think the write speed will suffer, how it will affect the WA I don't know. We'll just have to wait and see.

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    Bluestang,

    I just forgot that the Indilinx wiper and smartviewer don't work with RST on my ICH8m C2Duo Lappy.

    I have 66 bad blocks on the older Agility, but they're all initial bad blocks.

    EDIT

    That Mtron might have really high WA/questionable wear leveling, so while it might last a long, long time, it might not be optimized in the same way an X25-E is.

    That's why you have to do the test... if they lasted as long as the manufacturer said, their wouldn't really be a need to endurance test them.

    Very curious to see how they work out. I know the G1 Intel drives aren't quite as good as the G2 (without trim), but should still be very interesting as well.

    I've been thinking of another drive to test with, so I'm taking suggestions.
    According to their spec sheet they claim 50GB a day for 140 years. I wonder what the avg write speed will be.
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  25. #2275
    Moderator Anvil's Avatar
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    The lack of TRIM will indeed make the G1 an interesting drive.
    I expect it will settle at 40-50MiB/s.

    I'm not sure about the Mtron, iirc it was generally pretty good at QD1.

    @Christopher
    What about the Vertex Plus?, the 120GB is cheap and the Indilinx was/is a pretty good sequential performer.
    (not sure about the current firmware though)

    or, you can pick up another Mushkin and put 10GB (or more) extra over-provisioning on it, it might do a lot of difference vs the standard one.
    (it could be any drive of course but over-provisioning is interesting and none of the current drives are over-provisioned)

    or, you can get one of the synchronous based drives and compare vs the async one I've got.

    a lot of options, I'll be looking for another drive within a month or two, and there's always the new Intel
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