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Thread: SSD Write Endurance 25nm Vs 34nm

  1. #1901
    Uber Raid King Computurd's Avatar
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    well i think that alot of manufacturers have been bending the rules a bit with the SF issue. From what i have read many are allowing it.
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  2. #1902
    SSDabuser Christopher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Computurd View Post
    well i think that alot of manufacturers have been bending the rules a bit with the SF issue. From what i have read many are allowing it.
    If there was some kind of assurance that one or two out of every ten SF22xx drives were subject to the error, trying to get a new one wouldn't be a bad idea -- but if data like that exists, no one is talking. I have a few weeks left to make a decision like that, and I know there are many, many SF2281's out there happily working with 1155 boards without incident. There just isn't much real information about it since everyone with inside knowledge is bound by iron clad NDA, but if it's some SF incompatibility with my hardware then drive swapping won't matter. I'm going to roll with it for a while longer before making any decisions, but if it keeps up like this I'll invoke the nuclear option.

    EDIT

    It finally crashed again, so I tried it in my AMD system. I couldn't even get the system to boot with the drive in the machine, even as a secondary. I don't know what the hell's going on, so I put it in my laptop.
    Last edited by Christopher; 09-30-2011 at 09:52 PM.

  3. #1903
    SSDabuser Christopher's Avatar
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    I just read AnandTech's review on the Intel 710 HET MLC. On the second page I read this:

    Thankfully we don't need to just take Intel's word, we can measure ourselves. For the past couple of years Intel has included a couple of counters in the SMART data of its SSDs. SMART attribute E2h gives you an accurate count of how much wear your current workload is putting on the drive's NAND. To measure all you need to do is reset the workload timer (E4h) and run your workload on the drive for at least 60 minutes. Afterwards, take the raw value in E2h, divide by 1024 and you get the percentage of wear your workload put on the drive's NAND. I used smartmontools to reset E4h before running a 60 minute loop of our SQL benchmarks on the drive, simulating about a day of our stats DB workload.

    Once the workloads finished looping I measured 0.0145% wear on the drive for a day of our stats DB workload. That works out to be 5.3% of wear per year or around 18.9 years before the NAND is done for. I'd be able to find more storage in my pocket before the 710 died due to NAND wear running our stats DB.

    For comparison I ran the same test on an Intel SSD 320 and ended up with a much shorter 4.6 year lifespan. Our stats DB does much more than just these two tasks however - chances are we'd see failure much sooner than 4.6 years on the 320. An even heavier workload would quickly favor the 710's MLC-HET NAND.
    I looked at the Smart data for my Intel drives and it looks like it works. I don't know how to reset the attribute with Smartmontools, but I'm working on it. This could be a useful tool for Anvil and OneHertz.

    http://www.anandtech.com/show/4902/i...200gb-review/3

  4. #1904
    Uber Raid King Computurd's Avatar
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    Nice find! Very interesting
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  5. #1905
    SSDabuser Christopher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Computurd View Post
    Nice find! Very interesting
    I've never used smartmontools, but somehow you can reset certain smart attributes with it. I'm trying to figure that part out now, or whether just disconnecting the drive resets the counter. I did some cross checking and I think its in the data sheet for one of the series of drives (it works for all of them)
    Last edited by Christopher; 10-01-2011 at 12:57 AM.

  6. #1906
    Xtreme Mentor Ao1's Avatar
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    ^ Intel talked about this at IDF 2010. The web seminar can be found here. (How do you measure endurance)

  7. #1907
    Moderator Anvil's Avatar
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    Kingston SSDNow 40GB (X25-V)

    358.91TB Host writes
    Reallocated sectors : 9
    MD5 OK

    36.45MiB/s on avg (~12 hours)

    --

    I've moved the Corsair to an ASUS M4E-Z68 and it can't keep up the same pace as the ASRock MB.

    It'll have to do for this weekend though, the Marvell controller on the ASRock was terrible and resulted in an avg of <70MiB/s.
    I managed getting it stable though by downloading a new driver and just as important, changing the SATA cable.
    (the one I started off with was bad, never used it before though)

    Corsair Force 3 120GB

    01 90/50 (Raw read error rate)
    05 2 (Retired Block count)
    B1 47 (Wear range delta)
    E6 100 (Life curve status)
    E7 80 (SSD Life left)
    E9 85962 (Raw writes)
    F1 114552 (Host writes)

    94.81MiB/s on avg (~11 hours), so, down more than 10MiB/s on avg.

    power on hours : 328
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  8. #1908
    Moderator Anvil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    I just read AnandTech's review on the Intel 710 HET MLC. On the second page I read this:

    I looked at the Smart data for my Intel drives and it looks like it works. I don't know how to reset the attribute with Smartmontools, but I'm working on it. This could be a useful tool for Anvil and OneHertz.

    http://www.anandtech.com/show/4902/i...200gb-review/3
    E2h = 5616 (based on >12 hours workload)

    5616 / 1024 = 5.484%

    It writes about 130GiB per hour

    I'll have a look at one that's running 24/7 as a boot drive on a server.

    (I did not reset the counters)
    Last edited by Anvil; 10-01-2011 at 04:07 AM.
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  9. #1909
    Moderator Anvil's Avatar
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    The Force 3 disconnected 30minutes ago. (in the middle of a loop)
    In 12 hours it wrote 4026 GiB, avg MiB/s 94.64.

    So, no improvement on the other Z68 rig, will be moving it to a X58.
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  10. #1910
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    Well Christopher, at least we now firmly know that SF2 has not been fixed. 10% failure due to incompatibility alone sounds ridiculously high to me. Lesson to learn : avoid SF drives until a major vendor jumps onto it. Avoid for now unless you like to RMA all day long back and forth ( one guy on OCZ forums RMA his drive 3 times and it still failed LOL ).

  11. #1911
    Moderator Anvil's Avatar
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    The Force 3 is now up and running on my super-rig
    (X58, 3Gb/s ICH10R, iaStor 9.6.0.1014)

    Speed looks to be on par or better than the M4E-Z 68 rig but let's give it a few loops...
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  12. #1912
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    Quote Originally Posted by bulanula View Post
    Well Christopher, at least we now firmly know that SF2 has not been fixed. 10% failure due to incompatibility alone sounds ridiculously high to me. Lesson to learn : avoid SF drives until a major vendor jumps onto it. Avoid for now unless you like to RMA all day long back and forth ( one guy on OCZ forums RMA his drive 3 times and it still failed LOL ).
    Avoid is too harsh to say considering that for each drive with issues there are 9 drive that are working. A better advice would be "Evaluate carefully your options! If you cannot afford to risk, then consider SSDs with other controllers". I know Sandforce based SSDs deployed in desktops that are used as servers (24/24 usage) and in 3 months there was only one restart having root cause an unstable overclocking during which one drive was temporary not recognized.

  13. #1913
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    Update with a milestone
    m4:
    574.7837 TiB
    2117 hours
    Avg speed 88.77 MiB/s.
    AD gone from 27 to 22.
    P/E 10044.
    MD5 OK.
    Still no reallocated sectors
    M4-CT064 M4SSD2 SATA Disk Device_64GB_1GB-20111001-1954-3.pngM4-CT064 M4SSD2 SATA Disk Device_64GB_1GB-20111001-1954-2.png

    Kingston V+100
    92.3074 TiB
    367 hours
    Avg speed 76.74 MiB/s.
    AD gone from 114 to 105.
    P/E ?.
    MD5 OK.

    KINGSTON SVP100S264G SATA Disk Device_64GB_1GB-20111001-1955-3.pngKINGSTON SVP100S264G SATA Disk Device_64GB_1GB-20111001-1955-2.png
    1: AMD FX-8150-Sabertooth 990FX-8GB Corsair XMS3-C300 256GB-Gainward GTX 570-HX-750
    2: Phenom II X6 1100T-Asus M4A89TD Pro/usb3-8GB Corsair Dominator-Gainward GTX 460SE/-X25-V 40GB-(Crucial m4 64GB /Intel X25-M G1 80GB/X25-E 64GB/Mtron 7025/Vertex 1 donated to endurance testing)
    3: Asus U31JG - X25-M G2 160GB

  14. #1914
    Xtreme Addict bluestang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B.A.T View Post
    Update with a milestone
    m4:
    574.7837 TiB
    2117 hours
    Avg speed 88.77 MiB/s.
    AD gone from 27 to 22.
    P/E 10044.
    MD5 OK.
    Still no reallocated sectors
    Bravo!
    Home PC -- Cruncher #1
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    Work PC -- Cruncher #2 ... Crucial M225 64GB SSD Donated to Endurance Testing (Died at 968 TB of writes...no that is not a typo!)
    GA-EP45T-UD3LR BIOS F10 modded, Q6600 G0 VID 1.212 (L731B536), 3.6 GHz 9x400 @ 1.312v full load, Zerotherm Zen FZ120
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  15. #1915
    SSDabuser Christopher's Avatar
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    My Mushkin has run without incident on my C2D laptop (I think it's the ICH8M). Speeds drop from 123MBs Avg on my 1155 system to 94MBs Avg. I'm using the RST drivers as well.

    The Sata II ports on the 1155 rig were good for just as much speed as the Sata III ports, so maybe the much slower laptop helps stability. I couldn't even get my AMD system to boot with the drive attached to a controller... which is strange (it's the 710 SB).

    I certainly don't think it's every SF2281 drive, but I think some hardware just doesn't work with the drives due to defect, or of out of spec hardware, or one of twenty other reasons. Until and unless this drive doesn't work with any hardware I have, I won't be giving up on it. So if it's not stable in this laptop, then I get a PCIe Marvel 6G controller. If that doesn't work, then I start thinking about more extreme options.

  16. #1916
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    Quote Originally Posted by sergiu View Post
    I know Sandforce based SSDs deployed in desktops that are used as servers (24/24 usage) and in 3 months there was only one restart having root cause an unstable overclocking during which one drive was temporary not recognized.
    A server was being run with overclocking, and not even known stable overclocking at that? I am not surprised that someone who would be crazy enough to run a server like that was also crazy enough to put Sandforce SSDs in it...
    Last edited by johnw; 10-01-2011 at 01:06 PM.

  17. #1917
    SSDabuser Christopher's Avatar
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    I heard that it if you put a SATA bus analyzer in the chain to try and analyze SF stability issues, you end up stopping the instability you're trying to detect. Maybe I can find one cheap on ebay

    EDIT
    Forget that... they're seriously expensive... who would have thought?

    PS
    Here is the link to the Intel 320 PDF for enterprise use if you want to see what Intel has to say on the matter of workload timers.
    http://www.intel.com/content/dam/doc...n-addendum.pdf
    Last edited by Christopher; 10-01-2011 at 01:52 PM.

  18. #1918
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    A server was being run with overclocking, and not even known stable overclocking at that? I am not surprised that someone who would be crazy enough to run a server like that was also crazy enough to put Sandforce SSDs in it...
    Well, the overclocked server + Sandforce SSD was my idea, but I did not implemented the solution by myself, as it is over 1000Km away. I could only "crash" the server remotely, nothing more . Either way, the guys are very happy with the choice. They did not complain about problems and they noticed that swapping takes place very fast. Having an i7 2600K @4.8Ghz, 16GB ram and a Vertex 3 240GB hosting VMs (in house usage) for half the price that they would have paid for a real server with slow HDDs is a good deal for them.

  19. #1919
    Uber Raid King Computurd's Avatar
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    im not sure how much stock i would put into the analyzer causing the issue to stop. If they cant even explain how it is happening, or make it replicable, how would they be sure the analyzer is stopping it?

    So much FUD coming out around this issue! Hard to sift out the truth.

    if the problem cant be located via a bus analyzer, then it will be impossible to fix.
    Last edited by Computurd; 10-01-2011 at 02:34 PM.
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  20. #1920
    SSDabuser Christopher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Computurd View Post
    im not sure how much stock i would put into the analyzer causing the issue to stop. If they cant even explain how it is happening, or make it replicable, how would they be sure the analyzer is stopping it?

    So much FUD coming out around this issue! Hard to sift out the truth.

    if the problem cant be located via a bus analyzer, then it will be impossible to fix.

    coincidence?
    I was joking about that

    Seriously, that's what SandForce said to AnandTech a while back. I don't believe anyone who claims to know what's going on with any sort of specificity. Every other controller seems to work okay (with maybe the Kingston 100+'s being some kind of exception) with every 1155 board and X58 and AMD southbridge. I'm going out on a limb here, but I think maybe the problem is with SandForce

    Here's some more on the Intel workload timers
    Example for Intel X18-M/X25-M G2 SSDs only: The subcommand 0x40 ('-t vendor,0x40') clears the timed workload related SMART attributes (226, 227, 228).
    From the Smartctl MAN page
    http://smartmontools.sourceforge.net...martctl.8.html
    Last edited by Christopher; 10-01-2011 at 02:38 PM.

  21. #1921
    Moderator Anvil's Avatar
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    Kingston SSDNow 40GB (X25-V)

    360.19TB Host writes
    Reallocated sectors : 10 (up 1 again)
    MD5 OK

    34.42MiB/s on avg (~24 hours)

    --

    Corsair Force 3 120GB

    01 90/50 (Raw read error rate)
    05 2 (Retired Block count)
    B1 47 (Wear range delta)
    E6 100 (Life curve status)
    E7 79 (SSD Life left)
    E9 88562 (Raw writes)
    F1 118022 (Host writes)

    94.70MiB/s on avg (~9 hours)

    power on hours : 339

    Let's see how long it lasts on the X58.

    --

    I'm happy with my SF based drives, including the SF2 based ones. (and I've got a few )
    Last edited by Anvil; 10-01-2011 at 03:15 PM.
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  22. #1922
    SSDabuser Christopher's Avatar
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    Mushkin Chronos Deluxe 60 Update

    05 2 <<-----This has increased from 0
    Retired Block Count

    Also Program Fail and Erase Fail (B5 and B6) increased to 1, likely increasing retired block count.

    B1 25 (Up from 20)
    Wear Range Delta

    F1 92732
    Host Writes

    E9 71505
    NAND Writes

    E6 100
    Life Curve

    E7 64
    Life Left

    Average 93.23MBs.

    239Hours Work
    Time 9 days, 23 hours

    Last 19.7hrs on 3gps port (C2D Laptop)

    12GiB Minimum Free Space

    SSDlife expects 16 days to 0 MWI
    Mushkin day 10.PNG

    It looks like it will run forever in the laptop, but it's much (soul-crushingly) slower that the P67's 3gbps ports.
    We'll see, but if(when) it crashes I'm trying something else.

    EDIT: I wasn't even paying attention. At some point I had two reallocations with one program fail and one erase fail. I'll keep an eye on it.

    ** Apparently, I'm not S.M.A.R.T. enough to reset the workload timer on my Intels with Smartctl... **
    Last edited by Christopher; 10-01-2011 at 10:38 PM.

  23. #1923
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    Update
    m4:
    581.5452 TiB
    2138 hours
    Avg speed 88.74 MiB/s.
    AD gone from 22 to 18.
    P/E 10156.
    MD5 OK.
    Still no reallocated sectors
    M4-CT064 M4SSD2 SATA Disk Device_64GB_1GB-20111002-1807-3.pngM4-CT064 M4SSD2 SATA Disk Device_64GB_1GB-20111002-1807-2.png

    Kingston V+100
    98.1974 TiB
    389 hours
    Avg speed 76.91 MiB/s.
    AD gone from 105 to 98.
    P/E ?.
    MD5 OK.
    KINGSTON SVP100S264G SATA Disk Device_64GB_1GB-20111002-1807-2.pngKINGSTON SVP100S264G SATA Disk Device_64GB_1GB-20111002-1807-3.png
    1: AMD FX-8150-Sabertooth 990FX-8GB Corsair XMS3-C300 256GB-Gainward GTX 570-HX-750
    2: Phenom II X6 1100T-Asus M4A89TD Pro/usb3-8GB Corsair Dominator-Gainward GTX 460SE/-X25-V 40GB-(Crucial m4 64GB /Intel X25-M G1 80GB/X25-E 64GB/Mtron 7025/Vertex 1 donated to endurance testing)
    3: Asus U31JG - X25-M G2 160GB

  24. #1924
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    Anybody wants to bet the m4 goes all the way to 1PB?

  25. #1925
    Xtreme Mentor Ao1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    ** Apparently, I'm not S.M.A.R.T. enough to reset the workload timer on my Intels with Smartctl... **
    Did you try this command to reset the values?

    smartctl -t vendor,0x40 /dev/pd0

    (pd0 is the drive indentify and is user variable. In my case pd0 = C drive on SATA Port 0)

    If the command works you should see this:

    C:\Program Files (x86)\smartmontools\bin>smartctl -t vendor,0x40 /dev/pd0
    smartctl 5.41 2011-06-09 r3365 [i686-w64-mingw32-win7(64)-sp1] (sf-win32-5.41-1)

    Copyright (C) 2002-11 by Bruce Allen, http://smartmontools.sourceforge.net

    === START OF OFFLINE IMMEDIATE AND SELF-TEST SECTION ===
    Sending command: "SMART EXECUTE OFF-LINE IMMEDIATE subcommand 0x40".
    Drive command "SMART EXECUTE OFF-LINE IMMEDIATE subcommand 0x40" successful.


    After an hour the values should change. I just ran it to make sure it worked. I only ran it for 80mins and the amount of writes were so low they did not even register. (This is on an X25-M btw)

    (E2) 226 – 0 (0/1024 = 0.000%).
    (E3) 227 – 79 (79% Reads)
    (E4) 228 – 80 (80 minutes)
    Last edited by Ao1; 10-02-2011 at 10:49 AM.

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