MSI 580 Lightning

[Xtreme Addict]

I tried it only because I don't have a fat. Up to about 1.35-1.37v was ok on a DCu II. I ran vantage 1200/1200 with a full pot, but pushing to 1.4v+ and the slim just can't handle the load. The pot probe temps were rising 20c and more through a single game test. I expect the temp of the die and IHS were rising even more. I gave up until I get hold of a fatty pot.

Actually ln2 was hard to pour now I think about it. the slim pot opening is so small the liquid was getting sprayed back by the amount of nitrogen gas expanding. Absolute ln2 sucking monster these cards.

I think loopy's idea is a good one. A pot with a slim base that allows maximum cold conduction through to the IHS is a good idea.

My best DCUII with duniek slimpot, 1300 MHz GPU @ 1.415v ( temp. - 131*C during Vantage, - 133*C = CB, -129*C = fail to pass tests), no problem to pull down temp during GPU tests or to control, of course it's not so easy but can be done

[canna1988]

What are the simptoms if you go over 1300MHz? Lockups or strange colors on the screen?

I removed HS from two of my Lighntings.

now the first one over 1300 MHz gives a grey screen..
while the second one over 1300 MHz shows me strange color in the screen (like fireworks)

Both benched Vantage @ 1475 MHz (10 MHz +/-) on the core and @ 1310 MHz on the memory

[loopy83]

So you have the same problem... we just have to find the right way to bench without HS and then theese cards will fly

The cores are always capable to run over 1450MHz... in some cases over 1600MHz and now they stop at 1300-1350MHz.

We have to test different thermal compounts, different kind of buffers between pot and DIE, different ways to mount the pot, different pots, different voltage and temperature ranges... one of theese arrangements must help to solve this strange problem.

[canna1988]

yes think the same.

Anyway i tested these thermal compound:

Antec Formula 7
ICD 7
MX2
dow corning

with all these Thermal compound i had the same problem, but with the MX-2 VGA worked a bit better.... don' t know if was lucky or what else, but i closed Vantage @ 1330 MHz... then i try the ICD 7 and frequency dropped to 1300 MHz... then tried again the MX-2 and frequency grow untill 1330 MHz... don t know what think about this (i tested MX2 before to remove the HS and it was worse than the ICD7)

My VGA POT is the Kingpin Fat 2nd revision (black alluminum tube)

About insulation i tried everything.... foam, neoprene, frost king, armaflex, vaseline.... all but everytime the same problem

About Temperatures I tried everything betwen -80 and -180.... and VGA worked better @ -90°C (1300 MHz was possible every time, while with other temperature sometime i had problem - grey screen or fireworks-)

[canna1988]

before i thought this...

when we mount the pot with HS or without HS on the VGA we use every time the same force.. because we tighten the screws or the bolt to the same limit every time.

but if we doing so, the pressure without the HS is bigger then the pressure with the HS, because pressure is: Force / Surface, and so:

if we mount the Pot with the HS we will have a X value of Force that push on a Y value of Surface,
while without the HS we have the same X value of Force that push on a Z Value of Surface.

So if the Z value (core surface) is lower then the Y value (HS Surface) is easy understand that, with the same mounting, the presure on the CORE is bigger then the pressure on the HS.

Could the problem be this? Because if is so, we should try to tight lower the screw or use springs and see what happen.

[Vivi]

Yea but less pressure means worse mounting, i doubt its a mounting problem. Too much similarities between everyone.

I still think matose is right.. the HS was cooling allot more than just the core, it was cooling the little resistors there and the PCB

[Splave]

Im ready for gtx-680 :X getting sick of 580

[Xtreme Addict]

I agree with you my friend, last weekend I tried 4-way on LN2 and during Vantage (1100 MHz GPUs) I got freeze and 3 GPUs are dead... DCU2

[G H Z]

Im ready for gtx-680 :X getting sick of 580

Bout time

[dinos22]

anyone using a backplate on GPUs?

[canna1988]

anyone using a backplate on GPUs?

me, but nothing changed

[Wumpus]

anyone yet tried a piece of copper between pot and core?
More thermal barrier might yield some interesting results....

[Wumpus]

anyone yet tried a piece of copper between pot and core?
More thermal barrier might yield some interesting results....

[Kabauterman]

Hey guys,

this weekend we collected some new knowledge about the Problem what I posted some time ago with the Heatspreader less cards.

We ordered different compound do see if there is some difference between them espacially in use without Heatspreader.
After SF3D's post about his experience with HS-less Cards we had some hope that our good cards what no more have a HS can run like before

Compound what we tested:

Arctic Cooling MX2
OCZ Freeze
Prolimatech PK1
Coollaboratory Liquid Ultra

at first MX2 is crap at all, long time we used this Compound and we never had problems with it, BUT compared to others it's the worst, coz even with Heatspreader a Card with MX2 could run maybe 70 to 100 MHz lower coz of temperature caused issues.

All of the conventionell Compounds aren't able to solve the HS-less Cards Problems

OCZ Freeze is/was our favorite for LN2 GFX... but it's hard to get it and without Heatspreader it was not able to allow clocks above 1300 MHz.

Prolimatech PK1 is quite similar to OCZ Freeze, unfortinatly we had just a little bit of the Freeze left and so we can't compare Freeze and PK1 directly, but clockrates on HS-less cards are the same 1300 and no more...

Coollaboratory Liquid Ultra is Liquid Metal, highly conductive and you have to be very very careful to short no circuit on the Card, but the good is, the Liquid Ultra has a Heat Transfer value wich is 10x higher then usual compound.
With this you have a Metal connection between GPU Core and Pot's Base. We where able to run 1450 MHz with this, AND it was quite impossible to push temperatures down during a run, even without so much voltage.
This means 150 MHz more and no more limiting by Grey screens like before (without HS and with usual compound)

but, the Liquid Ultra is just a realy thin film on the GPU core, it is not made for filling up uneven edges and it is hard to mout the Pot right, coz if you have to much pressure and the card is bending the Liquid Ultra will not have perfect contact on every edge of the GPU core.

Another unfortunat point is that you need to heat your Pot up to positive values until you can release it, coz the Liquid Metal become hard on sub Zero.
And it is a dirty work to remove the Liquid Metal... on the GPU core it is ok, but on the Pot you need to polish the Base to remove all the rest of the Liquid Metal.

But for now we know that the problem with Heatspreader less cards is realy a temperature issue.

The compound on the GPU Core can't transfer the Heat fast enoght and so the GPU overheats.

[nacho_arroyo]

Great data kabauterman!, here is very very difficult find ocz freeze, i have a little bit more, but when this is over, i don't know witch compound buy, the Phobya liquid metal thermal compound Paste LM is available in my city, and arctic silver sure. i need to take one of this when my ocz is gone

BR

PD: sorry my bad english

[Vivi]

hmm well done Kabauter!

So why can we run fine with HS on? and normal compound? Is the paste between HS and Die really really good? even if it looks bad.

Quite amazing that it is so much temp related. getting the right heatpaste is really a big issue

oh and is 1450 the max of your card?

so you can do 1450 - with hs - with normal paste
and 1450 - without hs - with liquid metal

[Vivi]

double post..

[Hondacity]

kabauterman did you short the (ocp)resistors that giorgio posted?

these cards are out of stock in north america

[Kabauterman]

hmm well done Kabauter!

So why can we run fine with HS on? and normal compound? Is the paste between HS and Die really really good? even if it looks bad.

Quite amazing that it is so much temp related. getting the right heatpaste is really a big issue

oh and is 1450 the max of your card?

so you can do 1450 - with hs - with normal paste
and 1450 - without hs - with liquid metal

On the Card what we tested now the maximum was 1450 3DMark06 before the removal and now without HS and Liquid Metal we tested 1450 in 3DMark03
we had some (not so important) artifacts on the run with Liquid Metal but we are sure it was a wrong mounting, like I wrote in the last part of the post.

But nevermind, 1450 with some mounting related issues is a lot more than 1300 and every step more Grey screen.
Vivi, I don't know but realy the original compound it something special not compareable to the things on the market.

Some years ago I heard about a test of Intels Stock Heatsink with the Original compound premounted on it against 3rd Market compound and the Intel Orig. Compount was 5° to 8° better that the best "high end" compound

No Honda we didn't used OCP on the Card what we used for the compound test.

[SF3D]

The original thermal paste between core and HS is made by Shin Etsu: http://www.petrastechshop.com/shx2thco1gr.html
That is the exactly same stuff in small tube. It can do the job pretty well, like we have seen. How it can do it, is another good question

[Vivi]

i see now SF3D said this long ago

I try to be useful here

This behaviour is because you need to have some buffer between pot and die.
I found out, that if you have direct contact between the large copper block (base of GPU pot),
results will get worse especially in heavy load.

When you have this kind of contact, which is actually super good,
you will not be able to transfer heat fast enough out of the die.
This is the reason you will loose that much MHz. It will propably cause the instant lock up in the beginning of some test.

Nvidia stock thermal paste is shin etsu, which is not good paste in general, but not bad with ln2 either.
It is working pretty well in heavy load and it is possible to transfer that huge heatload to HS.
When you have some good thermal paste in use, you will now be able to transfer that heat from HS to GPU pot.

This way the temperature of GPU is higher and when you have enough voltage they will run well.
Without HS you will get too cold very easily and face some other cold related issues as well.

I actually tried quite thick copper plate between pot and GPU HS and it worked well.
That was my 1455MHz unigine run with that certain DCII card.
The card was a lot easier to hold in correct temperature range that way.

So, my point was that keep the HS on. Keep the GPU warm enough and give enough voltage for it.

anyone tried no heatpaste? like lap HS and lap GPU pot perfectly?

[Q56_Monster]

I'm having CBB issues below -110C, even with LN2 BIOS switch. All other dip switches on also. Is that typical on these lightnings? Or do I need to short a resistor to save on LN2? PITA warming back up

[Kabauterman]

I'm having CBB issues below -110C, even with LN2 BIOS switch. All other dip switches on also. Is that typical on these lightnings? Or do I need to short a resistor to save on LN2? PITA warming back up

CBB issue has nothing do to with the BIOS Switch, the BIOS is just for the Cold-Slow fix.

CBB would be removed after you Switch the Xtreme Cool 2 Jumper to "ON"

[loopy83]

The original thermal paste between core and HS is made by Shin Etsu: http://www.petrastechshop.com/shx2thco1gr.html
That is the exactly same stuff in small tube. It can do the job pretty well, like we have seen. How it can do it, is another good question

I ordered some tubes from US.... hopefully they will arrive soon.
Thank you very much for the information Pete

Compound what we tested:

Arctic Cooling MX2
OCZ Freeze
Prolimatech PK1
Coollaboratory Liquid Ultra

Hopefully on the next weekend we can add Shin-Etsu X23-7783D Silicone Thermal Compound to this list

[SeMbEr]

Looking forward to that test result!
Thanks for information, i have one lightning coming here and after reading these i wont even think to take hs off before there is one 99% sure solution found :P
I have 5 different thermal pastes here so i can try some of them to see wich is best one. (AS5,Gelid GC1,Zalman STG2,Thermalright CF III,Revoltec Diamond and maybe some AC too)

Too bad i have only slim pots here, lets see how much voltages it would handle. Maybe not enough to get mark11 over 1300Mhz gpu.. :/