Japan quakes

[stangracin3]

When I started the Post (I thinked what to write around 30 mins), everything was fine and no one was banned. Seems that a reactor gone blow in this very Thread.

it also seems a 4th is in the process of failing

[saaya]

No, I found your post offending to not only josh but anyone who reads it.

anyone? just shoot me a pm and ill edit any of my posts, ive never had a problem with that... i dont intend to offend anybody...

and why would my post be offending to josh?
i highly respect him and asked him for his opinion twice... i just dont agree with him saying "all is good and dont worry"
like i said, thats easy to say when your in a safe zone...

so whats so offending about my post?
pls pm me and ill edit it...

As for Japan, many many people are still in shelters with no adequate food, water and electricity. Keep them all in your thoughts and prayers, they are suffering enough already without worrying about the nuclear plants.

which means they shouldnt worry about it?
it sucks and i feel really sorry for them, and i donated money to the japanese red cross and asked if they need volunteers, but unfortunately things arent over yet...
just ignoring this wont make it go away...
if id live close to fukshima id have moved away already to another part of the country or another country entirely...

Yes he had a lot to add to the thread but he also defied staff and basically did whatever he wanted, not gonna fly here. Again there is enough strees on the people living through and watching this situation, we dont need to add to it here.

mhhh too bad...
but hell be back right?

[G H Z]

You used to be staff, what do you think?

As long as people follow the rules and keep things civil, pretty much anything goes.

[MirageSys]

@zir_blazer

The might have started venting earlier then when the media reported doing so, but if they didn't, its because they are just following protocol. Any one of the other steps and redundancies they might have used could have alleviated the need to release pressure by venting. Emergency management would have a checklist of tasks to perform in any given situation.

In this case, there were alternatives they tried first, such as using a high pressure injection system, but they failed. Only after seeing the other options fail, did they resort to venting. They didn't see a need to skip steps, just as they haven't used a measure of last resort yet.

Here is an article with some information about the situation:

http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS...3_1303111.html

[saaya]

btw, about this article:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...680697248.html

The Chernobyl reactor had two crucial design flaws. First, it used graphite (carbon) instead of water to "moderate" the neutrons, which makes possible the nuclear reaction. The graphite caught fire in April 1986 and burned for four days. Water does not catch fire.

right, water creates a LOT of pressure and seperates into hydrogen and oxygen which doesnt burn... it EXPLODES... :P
so its not like gen2 reactors have a stable moderator that cant fail...

Second, Chernobyl had no containment structure. When the graphite caught fire, it spouted a plume of radioactive smoke that spread across the globe. A containment structure would have both smothered the fire and contained the radioactivity.

or... it would have been blown away partly and get damaged/cracked... and radioactivity leaks... which seems to be what happened at fukushima

great article though...
so a meltdown through the outer core is impossible?
and gen3 reactors dont need any active maintenance to shut down, you push a button and thats it, no electricity or generators or manpower needed...
i understand that people protest against nuclear power now... but what they should really protest against is using gen1 and gen2 reactors...

You used to be staff, what do you think?

As long as people follow the rules and keep things civil, pretty much anything goes.

well, that was before the news section crackdowns
i gotta say tho, the stricter moderation does work...

xs is one of the most civil forums i know of... the worst ive seen here is debating each others iq and calling each other doo-doo-heads ^^
yeah well, we are all geeks after all

EDIT: so the worst thing that could happen, as a meltdown core breach is supposedly impossible, is that the cores still get breached somehow... right?
that would result in radioactive material escaping the core... sounds just like chernobyl to me, just not as severe and more slowly like a cracked pressure cooker...
and other than chernobyl there are 4 reactors which, COULD, all crack and release radioactive material...

im really a little nervous about this...
better safe than sorry...

[ripken204]

I fully agree with saaya regarding being skeptical about what the government is saying.
They are definitely downplaying this, and if not them, then TEPCO is.

Somewhat reminds me of the movie The China Syndrome, it took some reporters to expose what was being hidden.

And honestly, I think that it is best to keep things somewhat quiet, if people are scared then they will panic. Things are bad enough as it is in Japan.
But there is a point when they need to think about the safety of Japan and other countries, and I think that point has now been crossed.

The evacuation radius keeps growing... If things were "ok" then why is the radius growing? The safety of the people living in Japan should be of top priority right now.
We know that there are some serious problems going on at that nuclear power plant, just let us know how severe it really is.

If I were in Japan right now I would want to get out of there ASAP.
People like saaya are even scared for his own well-being and he doesn't even live in Japan. (close enough though)

and it's pretty sad that josh was banned
he seemed to be one of very few who actually understand what's going on.

[MirageSys]

btw, about this article:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...680697248.html


i understand that people protest against nuclear power now... but what they should really protest against is using gen1 and gen2 reactors...

Japan had scheduled retirement for the plants currently experiencing trouble and was planning on building new generation 3+ reactors.

The gen3+ reactors have more redundancies and are extremely safe.



Newer generations of reactors get progressively safer. Its hard to imagine, but in the past, the united states had an experimental reactor that used liquid sodium....

[ripken204]

also their are gen1, gen2, and gen3 reactors for a reason... they improve over time.
we had to start somewhere, and they are only getting better.

i hope that the engineers who built these power plants will study everything that has happened from this disaster to make the next generation even better, as well as upgrading all of the current power plants.

[dctokyo]

Update: Here is a little information on what we really know has happened regarding the nuclear reactors in Fukushima.

There is a possibility that one or more of the reactors will meltdown. A meltdown does not mean that radiation will fly all over the place Chernobyl-style. Reports indicate that the primary containment vessel remains intact.

A small amount of radiation leaked this morning. It is only apparently enough to be dangerous to people in the immediate area, but residents within 30-kilometers have been evacuated as a precaution.

Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano said a fourth reactor at the complex was on fire and more radiation had been released.

He said the reactor, even though it was unoperational, was believed to be the source of the elevated radiation release because of the hydrogen release that triggered the fire.

“Now we are talking about levels that can damage human health. These are readings taken near the area where we believe the releases are happening. Far away, the levels should be lower,” he said.

“Please do not go outside. Please stay indoors. Please close windows and make your homes airtight. Don’t turn on ventilators. Please hang on your laundry indoors,” he said.

“These are figures that potentially affect health, there is no mistake about that,” he said.

He said a reactor whose containment building caught fire Monday has not contributed greatly to the increased radiation. The radiation level around one of the reactors stood at 400,000 microsiverts per hour, four times higher than the safe level.

Officials said 50 workers are still there trying to put water into the reactors to cool them. They say 800 other nonessential staff were evacuated.

The 400,000 microserverts (400 millisieverts) per hour reading was taken right next to the reactor in question. What does that mean? Here is a very good explanation from Gakuranman, who has been updating a very informative liveblog on the subject: http://gakuranman.com/great-tohoku-earthquake/

Remember, although these figures may suggest that the level of radiation being recorded at Fukushima is not extremely high, the danger is constant exposure over a period of time. For this reason, people within the 20km evacuation zone are at high risk of serious harm.

7,000-10,000 millisieverts – Person dies from radiation poisoning. (Full body exposure).
1,000 – Nausea and vomiting (Full body exposure).
500 – Will reduce levels of peripheral blood lymphocytes (white blood cells that defend your body) (Full body exposure).
200 – No clinical conditions confirmed below this number
10 – Radiation from the sun
6.9 – CT scan
2.4 – 1 year’s worth of natural radiation
0.6 Stomach X-ray
0.2 – A return air trip from Tokyo to New York
0.05 – Chest X-ray (or the level of radiation expected to be maintained around a nuclear power plant)


At this point, there is nothing indicating that anything close to a dangerous amount of radiation is being blown towards Tokyo.

[stangracin3]

0.2 – A return air trip from Tokyo to New York

i think this one may be a little higher right now...

[mezcal]

This is also not good.
Lot of folks are going to find out they are bankrupt after they dig their kids out of the destruction.

[Loque]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySPe0rQaPx4

I only trust this guy, he could talk about grass and I'd still hear him

[[XC] gomeler]

le sigh.

btw, about this article:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...680697248.html

right, water creates a LOT of pressure and seperates into hydrogen and oxygen which doesnt burn... it EXPLODES... :P
so its not like gen2 reactors have a stable moderator that cant fail...

or... it would have been blown away partly and get damaged/cracked... and radioactivity leaks... which seems to be what happened at fukushima

There is a big difference between a hydrogen/oxygen explosion that has banged up some piping and blown the walls off the structure versus the week long burn of the graphic moderator at Chernobyl. The plume from the burning core was what spread all the isotopes across the globe. A quick explosion might scatter some material around the immediate vicinity but it won't create a several kilometer plume to lift such nasty crap into the air.

great article though...
so a meltdown through the outer core is impossible?
and gen3 reactors dont need any active maintenance to shut down, you push a button and thats it, no electricity or generators or manpower needed...
i understand that people protest against nuclear power now... but what they should really protest against is using gen1 and gen2 reactors...

I've read here and there people saying these particular reactors didn't have the gigantic concrete catch can sitting below the containment vessel to catch the melting core. I don't know if this is true or not but if it is true it means the core could melt through the bottom of pressure vessel, containment vessel and the foundation of the building. If this happens then there is risk of groundwater contamination which is very bad. Still won't affect you in Taiwan

well, that was before the news section crackdowns
i gotta say tho, the stricter moderation does work...

xs is one of the most civil forums i know of... the worst ive seen here is debating each others iq and calling each other doo-doo-heads ^^
yeah well, we are all geeks after all

EDIT: so the worst thing that could happen, as a meltdown core breach is supposedly impossible, is that the cores still get breached somehow... right?
that would result in radioactive material escaping the core... sounds just like chernobyl to me, just not as severe and more slowly like a cracked pressure cooker...
and other than chernobyl there are 4 reactors which, COULD, all crack and release radioactive material...

im really a little nervous about this...
better safe than sorry...

also their are gen1, gen2, and gen3 reactors for a reason... they improve over time.
we had to start somewhere, and they are only getting better.

i hope that the engineers who built these power plants will study everything that has happened from this disaster to make the next generation even better, as well as upgrading all of the current power plants.

This. People are now judging nuclear power by the gradual failure of this plant that was designed half a century ago. In my book the designed facility did a damn good job of gradually failing when mother nature threw a 8.9 magnitude earthquake, hundreds of aftershocks, oh.. and that ing 30 foot tall wall of water. Yeah, I'd say they did a pretty good job all things taking into account. Now I just hope the next set of generators at a coastal plant will be waterproof

[saaya]

FYI, i just got a text message:
japanese gov confirms radiation leak and asks neighbouring nations to take the necessary precuations
everybody is adviced to stay inside and close windows, do not go outside if it rains
fallout is expected to hit the phillipines in 2 hours

this came just at lunch and if you know taiwan, you know how noisy it always is in restaurants...
its DEAD silent as everybody is watching the news right now... nobody is talking...

i hope this info is wrong...
googling for more news now :S

the philipines are just around the corner from taiwan, so... damn...

TOKYO, March 15 (Itar-Tass) - A threat of total meltdown of nuclear fuel has emerged at the Fukushima-1 nuclear power plant in Japan

taiwanese news TV:radiation in Tokyo has reached 20x normal levels

good article:
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/n...tdown-disaster

cant find more news... damn im worried....

BBC flash news: Japan government confirms radiation leak at Fukushima nuclear plants. Asian countries should take necessary precautions. If it rains, remain indoors first 24hours, close doors n windows, swab neck skin with beta-dine where thyroid area is, radiation hits thyroid first. Take extra precautions, radiation may hit Philippines starting 4pm (Pinas time) today!

evacuation zone around fukushima has been widened to 30km

[ripken204]

saaya - just curious, who exactly did you get a text message from? is there some emergency text system setup in your country?

I will pray that nothing comes your way

[G H Z]

saaya -> http://www.ustream.tv/channel/nhk-world-tv

[saaya]

saaya - just curious, who exactly did you get a text message from? is there some emergency text system setup in your country?

I will pray that nothing comes your way

from an ex-coworker at foxconn... not an emergency system, its a news system you can subscribe to and then you get news updates... usually about weather and traffic...

thx mark! watching now...

man this article i just found is scary...
sounds exactly like what i was worried about...

GlobalPost: The New York Times is reporting that radioactive releases could go on for weeks or months. How concerned should we be about that? At what point does a reactor like this becomes less menacing?

Gundersen: The chain reaction has stopped. That happened in two seconds. But the radioactive isotopes are still decaying away. They’ll decay for at least a year. So you have to release the pressure from that containment pretty much every day. With releasing the pressure will come releasing radioactive isotopes as well.

So yes, the Times is right that every plant — there are now three or four of them — will be opening up valves every day to make sure the pressure is down. And there will be releases from these plants for at least a year.

GlobalPost: How much of a health threat is that?

Gundersen: Within 90 days, the iodine health risks will disappear, because that will decay away. But the nasty isotopes — the cesium and strontium will remain for 30 years. And they’re volatile.

After Three Mile Island, strontium was detected 150 miles away from the reactor. That ends up in cow’s milk and doesn’t go away for 300 years. The releases from these plants will last for a year, and will contain elements that will remain in the environment for 300 years, even in the best case.

If we have a meltdown, it will be even worse than that.

GlobalPost: The ultimate risk in any nuclear accident is that the heat can grow so intense that the steel containment vessel is ruptured, releasing a large amount of radiation. You say there’s a 50-50 chance of this happening. What kind of health effects can we expect?

Gundersen: First, it’s important to know that this steel containment is about an inch thick. It’s not some massive battleship of steel. The reactor is already open, because the pressure relief valves have to stay open.

On top of that, these containments have already breached. We saw iodine and cesium in the environment before the first unit exploded. When you see that, that’s clearly an indication that the containment has breached.

Now, is it leaking 1 percent a day? Probably. Is it leaking 100 percent a day? No. I think for the neighboring towns out to 2 miles, they won’t have anybody back in them for five years. Out to 15 miles, I doubt you’re going to see anyone back for six months. And that’s in the best case, without a meltdown.

If we have a meltdown, I don’t think anyone will be back within 20 miles for 10 or 15 years.

[miahallen]

7,000-10,000 millisieverts – Person dies from radiation poisoning. (Full body exposure).
1,000 – Nausea and vomiting (Full body exposure).
500 – Will reduce levels of peripheral blood lymphocytes (white blood cells that defend your body) (Full body exposure).
200 – No clinical conditions confirmed below this number
10 – Radiation from the sun
6.9 – CT scan
2.4 – 1 year’s worth of natural radiation
0.6 Stomach X-ray
0.2 – A return air trip from Tokyo to New York
0.05 – Chest X-ray (or the level of radiation expected to be maintained around a nuclear power plant)

Is anyone else confused

[saaya]

higher radiation levels in tokyo wont affect health IMMEDIATELY...
well, thats good to hear... NOT!
so it IS already at health threatening levels... :S

Radioactive Ceasium and Iodine has been detected in Tokyo
there have been detections of isotopes as far as 300km away from fukushima already

now on japanese tv they advice people on how to cover their mouths, seal their homes airtight...
i dont like the sound of this at all...
i dont like this at all...
the gov always tells you the least you have to know...

[ripken204]

higher radiation levels in tokyo wont affect health IMMEDIATELY...
well, thats good to hear... NOT!
so it IS already at health threatening levels... :S

ya, as we both said, we are being fed lies even at this point in time... it's ridiculous...

that tv stream said to stay inside, dont breath outside air, keep your skin covered, dont drink tap water, dont eat food that was outside...

[saaya]

this article is really nice
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/n...tdown-disaster

GlobalPost: You mentioned that the containment vessels have already been damaged. It appears that officials are reporting the opposite. How do you know you’re right?

Gundersen: We’re seeing iodine and cesium in the environment. That’s an indication that the containments are leaking. Exactly how much they’re leaking it’s hard to say.

I can’t understand how officials can say that the releases are low, when they don’t have any instruments that are working. Their batteries have failed, and when the batteries fail, all of the instruments stop working. So it’s hard to determine what the radiation levels are, and what the pressure levels are.

The Japanese and the nuclear industry are heavily, heavily financially invested in this. My experience is that, after Three Mile Island and after Chernobyl, everybody said there wasn’t a problem, until there was a problem. So I really don’t put much faith in official pronouncements the first week of an accident.

GlobalPost: So the people who have access to information have a self interest in making that information look as benign as possible?

Gundersen: Yes. On top of that, the officials don’t want to provoke a panic. So there’s a financial long term interest to try to minimize the impact. The flip side of that is that in the process you lose transparency. There is no transparency right now. We’re dealing with second hand information.

I understand from one source that the second unit cannot be vented, because the vent is jammed. I don’t know if that’s true or not. I have one source, and I like to have two. But this accident hasn’t played out yet. It could clearly get worse before it gets better.

GlobalPost: How safe is Tokyo at this point?

The radiation is being diluted by the wind and spread out. Tokyo is a long way away. Germany is a long way from Chernobyl, and the ground in Germany is so contaminated that they are still prohibiting the hunting of wild boars, 25 years later.

But we don’t have a lot of accurate measures. There’s a U.S. aircraft carrier 100 miles away, and the workers on that aircraft carrier received in one hour the dose they would normally get in one month.

GlobalPost: Is there any risk that the radiation would reach American shores?

Oh it will. Chernobyl reached the U.S. The question is how much radiation? There’s not a lot of data to make that determination right now.

GlobalPost: Should people be concerned about food contamination?

Certainly in Japan they should.

I’ve gone out and bought potassium iodine pills, and I plan to take potassium iodine starting in about 10 days, just because I’m concerned about food contamination. That’s a personal choice right now. My experience says that it would be prudent to get potassium iodine pills and take them, to avoid any of the iodine that might come over. But there’s not a lot of data to support whether or not potassium iodine really helps.

GlobalPost: Is that something that you can buy in a health food store?

Yes, you can get these pills in health food stores and online, although I hear that they’re selling out

[Biker]

Oh crap.... what a mess

I feel so sorry for those people at the plant desperately trying to minimise the effects of this additional catastrophe and probably paying for it in high doses of hard radiation

...and as for the environmental impact and all it's implications... well... words fail me.

[G H Z]

the gov always tells you the least you have to know...

I actually think we're hearing more truth from the Japanese govt. than you would get from many others. Chernobyl for instance, initially nothing was reported, then they tried to cover up the severity by witholding information.

[vitaminc]

Saaya. This is fake spam originating from Philippine, to HK and now in TW.

FYI, i just got a text message:
japanese gov confirms radiation leak and asks neighbouring nations to take the necessary precuations
everybody is adviced to stay inside and close windows, do not go outside if it rains
fallout is expected to hit the phillipines in 2 hours

this came just at lunch and if you know taiwan, you know how noisy it always is in restaurants...
its DEAD silent as everybody is watching the news right now... nobody is talking...

i hope this info is wrong...
googling for more news now :S

the philipines are just around the corner from taiwan, so... damn...

TOKYO, March 15 (Itar-Tass) - A threat of total meltdown of nuclear fuel has emerged at the Fukushima-1 nuclear power plant in Japan

taiwanese news TV:radiation in Tokyo has reached 20x normal levels

good article:
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/n...tdown-disaster

cant find more news... damn im worried....



evacuation zone around fukushima has been widened to 30km

[Biker]

Saaya. This is fake spam originating from Philippine, to HK and now in TW.

In *SO* hope you are right