Japan quakes

[IvanAndreevich]

sea water radiation and contamination is 1200 times above the limit, which is i dont know how much higher than normal... yet the japanese government said... guess what... you got it! everything is alright! theres nothing to worry about! it will disperse quickly and the affect on marine life will be minimal...

ffs, do these government spokes people honestly think people are THAT stupid? why do they even hold press conferences? you cant have less credibility than zero so they are just wasting every-bodies time...

It's iodine, so the half life is only about a week. As long as it's kept away from people, it should break down fast enough.

[bitbum]

Bravo

Now the facts. In meldtown the fuel rods melt, and pool inside the containment unit, which is designed for that possibility. If the containment unit fails, then there is a possibility of widespread contamination. Not an explosion like in Chernobyl, though.

Decay continues at IDENTICAL rates governed by the half-life time.

I was just quoting from a guy who has worked in chem & rad for the last 20 years. He said when core is unmoderated, it burns up in something similar to an explosion. Fuel pooling he said was a myth. Just passing on info from rad worker. In any case, I hope unit 3 stops leaking sometime soon.

[saaya]

It's iodine, so the half life is only about a week. As long as it's kept away from people, it should break down fast enough.

so in a week its ONLY 600 times above safety limits, boy am i relieved :P

and thats once the leak gets fixed... they havent fixed the leak, they havent found the leak, they dont even know what COULD be leaking and where, they cant even get close to find out cause radiation is too high... so yeah, i love how the gov and IAEA downplay this once again lol...

[G H Z]

saaya I don't get where you get the downplay stuff, we know what's going on, it's not a good situation. What exactly do you want them to say? Everyone run for your lives? We screwed up and you're all going to die? I think the Japanese media has done a very good job here. If there is anything that can be criticized, it would be not getting more people involved early before both plants blew their tops.

[saaya]

Are they still at level 5 lol? Three Mile Island was a level 5 and nowhere near this amount of radiation made it to the enviroment. After the explosion at Fukushima 3, which was easliy twice as powerful as the reactor 1 explosion, I am not surprised there is a breach in the reactor. High levels of radiation in the sea means that one of the reactor's is breached, there is not enough radioactivity in the spent fuel pools to account for what's being seen.

Oh and it's nice to see they are just now just finding out sea water is not suitable for cooling these things, hello? How did the so called 'engineers' miss that one

they are calling it a 6 now after getting a lot of pressure, but even that is downplaying things if you ask me...
and the sea water was used cause there was nothing else they could use... they knew it was a bad idea, but the best option they had it seems...

I apologize if this sounds really dumb, but nuclear physics is not something I'm versed on...

Reading through the previous posts I get the impression that once you start a fission reaction it won't stop until the uranium is depleted?

Which means that unless cooled down by artificial means, as long as the materials it finds on it's path melt at lower temperatures than what the uranium fuel can reach it will keep melting it's way down?

Have I got this right or I've just read too much sci-fi?

as far as i know you got unstable atoms, they pop randomly and release neutrons and heat. and yes, this continues until all radioactive material is burned up.
reactors and bombs control the amount of neutrons flying around by focusing them into a small area and creating more neutron radiation, which then pops lots of unstable atoms. in a bomb this chain effect is not controlled and results in a positive feedback loop until there are so many atoms popping at the same time a massive blast is created.

in a reactor they control the chain reaction with various tools and methods...
one of them is water... in chernobyl the water evaporated, couldnt block neutrons, and the chainreaction got out of control... according to wikipedia there was a nuclear excursion = nuclear blast... though im not sure if its the same as in a nuke...

in fukushima the water evaporated but the rods were still seperated so the chain reactions didnt get out of control. the rods heated up and at least partially melted though. the risk is that, in theory, according to what i read, the molten fuel rods can form a pool of dense radioactive material, which you cant control anymore, and there could be a chainreaction with a resulting nuclear excursion = nuclear explosion.

OR, this molten mass continues to melt its way through any containment deep into the ground, the so called china syndrome (melts all the way to china)

the explosion is unlikely to happen i think, because when the rods melt, they will probably mix with a lot of other material and the concentration wont be high enough to cause a chain reaction... but idk tbh...

the latter did happen in chernobyl, but didnt happen in 3mile island... its supposedly not possible, especially since these reactors have a massive concrete pool, the "core catcher" right beneath the reactor pressure vessel.
so it wouldnt melt deep into the ground, but it WOULD boil in that concrete pool for... well... a long time... releasing lots of fresh sparkling glowing material into the skies...

Does not seem to be the case for power plants

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_chain_reaction

according to wikipedia a nuclear excursion DID happen at chernobyl... but i dont really know if its different from a nuke... i guess its less severe and powerful...

saaya I don't get where you get the downplay stuff, we know what's going on, it's not a good situation. What exactly do you want them to say? Everyone run for your lives? We screwed up and you're all going to die? I think the Japanese media has done a very good job here. If there is anything that can be criticized, it would be not getting more people involved early before both plants blew their tops.

example: tab water is not safe for infants, then tell people how and where they can find water for infants
dont tell people "its above limits but its actually ok, you CAN still feed your baby with this water and it will PROBABLY be ok"
be positive! tell people what is ok, tell people for who the water is still ok...

another example: sea water radiation is way above limits, advice people not to eat fish and seafood from the region, put more checks of sea water in the area in place, check all local seafood for radiation and isotopes. DONT pretend that all is fine and there wont be any consequences!
tell people where the water flows to, and what regions are not affected at all. tell them what seafood is fine.
again, be positive, tell people what is fine and not affected... dont tell them something is wrong but then try to downplay it...

YES! there are consequences... they arent as big as most people think, but they are there, and the more you try to hide them and pretend all is fine, the less people will listen to you and expect the worst. the japanese gov keeps pledging to be honest and open, yet they continue to hold back information and try to talk things nice...

[Cooper]

Of course in Chernobyl some radiation leaked outside but it was not a nuclear blast. If it would there wouldn't be any power plant left.
Oh and BTW relax. We are all going to die anyway. It's just a matter of time

[saaya]

Of course in Chernobyl some radiation leaked outside but it was not a nuclear blast. If it would there wouldn't be any power plant left.
Oh and BTW relax. We are all going to die anyway. It's just a matter of time

Well, according to the Wikipedia page there was... no idea if that's accurate...

And I'm not afraid to die, this is about people suffering for years if not decades... out of greed and negligence...

And yet another painful flat of the face stumble by tepco
They announced 10 million higher than normal isotope density and then quickly back pedaled when they realized there is no way to make this sound harmless and fine


http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/27_24.html

[Cooper]

And yet another painful flat of the face stumble by tepco
They announced 10 million higher than normal isotope density and then quickly back pedaled when they realized there is no way to make this sound harmless and fine

Correction. They realized the stock markets would collapse. They don't even specify what is that strange long lasting substance.

[NEOAethyr]

When they mention infants...
I think of cat and dogs.
Cat's are small little things, and so are some dogs, like the japanese chin for example.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_Chin

What are you supposed to do?, give them bottled water in a water dish...
How long would that last ^^.


You take something that is radioactive, and you place something else beside it, it also becomes radioactive.
Like the sea water, it pours back into the sea, the fish become radioactive, the dirt, etc.
Birds...

You take the half life of a drop of water, 7-10 days maybe.
The iodine anyways.
Say it's got 3 days left, it gets another drop of water radioactive, how long does this 2nd drop of water's radioactivity last?
That's where the danger is I think, it's not quite as safe as saying, yeah, 10days and everything is fine.
It'll take longer then that probably.

I was also thinking, if radioactive water is no prob, ie safe, then why do they put it in spin glass barrels...
Apparently that's not what they put into those barrels though from what I could gather.


What gets me though is what took them so long to react to the reactor probs.
Backup power could of been heli'ed in that night...
Before things blew up the next day.

Again I haven't been checking the news, I will eventually.
I wonder if they got any of the pumps ready yet.

[h0bbes]

Not sure if i understand what you are saying about iodine, water and radioactivity but the half life of an iodine particle will not be reset if it contaminates more water.

[p2501]

Well, according to the Wikipedia page there was... no idea if that's accurate...

It's not accurate, it was a hydrogen explosion like the ones in Fukushima, only strong enough to lift the 2000+ ton steel lid some meters up like a beer bottle cap and blow half the reactor away. The 3% Uranium in fuel rods isn't enough to reach critical mass.

I wonder if they got any of the pumps ready yet.

Sadly no, they're still reparing things. Process of repairs is slow because it seems that some of the electrical and pumping equipment is housed in the turbine building which is flooded with extremely radioactive (core-) water. It's not looking good atm. No one likes Plutonium enriched water _anywhere_.

[pcwhisperer]

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...-plant-design/

[Loque]

they should let overclockers build coolers for the nuke plants

[p2501]

For the link above:

Plant design (large view).

But yes, everyone is cursing nuclear power when in fact there _are_ safe reactor designs with solid or liquid fuel, water cooled or salt cooled... the thing is that the industry just wants to cheap out to maximise profits and politics... well, those guys just like their position and 'funding' don't they?! We should curse the current situation the technology itself is in. Just totally in the wrong hands.

[saaya]

For the link above:

Plant design (large view).

But yes, everyone is cursing nuclear power when in fact there _are_ safe reactor designs with solid or liquid fuel, water cooled or salt cooled... the thing is that the industry just wants to cheap out to maximise profits and politics... well, those guys just like their position and 'funding' don't they?! We should curse the current situation the technology itself is in. Just totally in the wrong hands.

Totally agree... they should admit that this is a Ford mustang, better than the fiat panda chernobyl was, but not up to today security standards...
By dismissing and ignoring concerns over fukushimas reactors they risk nuclear energy to get a massive hit in popularity which wasn't good to begin with.

BTW, a poll in Japan showed almost 60% of the population doesn't like how the gov handles the situation. Like I said before, this will have big consequences politically. So long kan... and thanks for all those promises of openness, they really helped.... not...

[saaya]

Didn't some people say 1000 time normal ceasium levels in sea water are no biggie since the half life is so low and it will dissipate quickly? Well today we are up to 2000 times the limit and Idk how many hundred thousand or million times the normal levels... my guess levels will rise as it takes time for the leaked isotope to reach the ocean.

Did anybody else see the interview on CNN with an expert saying he expects several full breaches to happen and more spent fuel rod fires? Sounds pretty pessimistic... and that was one of the US experts that just came back from fukushima :l

He said radiation will rise and make it even more difficult to maintain cooling, which means cooling will get worse again... and it'll take a long time for all that stuff to cool down... god damn... when is this nightmare finally going to be over? poor Japan ...

[BeepBeep2]

Didn't some people say 1000 time normal ceasium levels in sea water are no biggie since the half life is so low and it will dissipate quickly? Well today we are up to 2000 times the limit and Idk how many hundred thousand or million times the normal levels... my guess levels will rise as it takes time for the leaked isotope to reach the ocean.

Did anybody else see the interview on CNN with an expert saying he expects several full breaches to happen and more spent fuel rod fires? Sounds pretty pessimistic... and that was one of the US experts that just came back from fukushima :l

He said radiation will rise and make it even more difficult to maintain cooling, which means cooling will get worse again... and it'll take a long time for all that stuff to cool down... god damn... when is this nightmare finally going to be over? poor Japan ...

Iodine - quickly
Cesium - very not-so-quickly.

[saaya]

My bad, iodine
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/27_11.html

[saaya]

japanese container ship put under quarantine in china because of radioactive contamination...
it sailed through waters 80miles from fukushima a week ago.

[lutjens]

What amazed me the most was that the cooling backup systems for cooling the reactors were vulnerable to tsunamis in the first place. Each reactor should have multiple redundant backups in separate reinforced watertight bunkers capable of being fully submerged. Sufficient diesel should be present on site to run diesel generators to run the cooling pumps for at least a week. A weeks worth of battery power should be present to run the cooling pumps for the same amount of time, to permit ample time to get battery replacements to the site if required. So, worst case, you have two weeks of cooling time available.

My $0.02...

[the finisher]

Totally agree... they should admit that this is a Ford mustang, better than the fiat panda chernobyl was, but not up to today security standards...
By dismissing and ignoring concerns over fukushimas reactors they risk nuclear energy to get a massive hit in popularity which wasn't good to begin with.

BTW, a poll in Japan showed almost 60% of the population doesn't like how the gov handles the situation. Like I said before, this will have big consequences politically. So long kan... and thanks for all those promises of openness, they really helped.... not...

Sad part is people who are against modernizing, and building new designed reactors. Are by default, causing old and potentiality dangerous plants to remain online. Short sighted fools, I say.


This old POS General Electric designed plant is no "Ford Mustang", more like a defunct GM Pontiac Firebird!

[NEOAethyr]

I found this the other day, I found it interesting (notes that neutron output was detected).
It's not a viable solution at the moment though, there's no prototype reactor using this tech putting out so many mw or anything.
Max bubble size so far is 1mm supposedly.

I don't know my sub atomic's so I have no idea if this could ever be practicable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bubble_fusion

I would prefer to see possible alternatives more researched instead of more nukes.

[AceBaran]

Sad part is people who are against modernizing, and building new designed reactors. Are by default, causing old and potentiality dangerous plants to remain online. Short sighted fools, I say.

There are better alternatives

http://www.thevenusproject.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVOPkGAtt48

[the finisher]

I sat next to a real nuclear scientist on an airplane sometime back. According to Him, new tech reactors could get 30 to 50 times the original power from the spent "waste" fuel stored all over the US.
The waste from this would be safer, long term than what we have now. Truly, technology is the source, and solution for many of our collective problems.

Bubble fusion sounds very interesting, however lets not lose sight that we need power now, in the near future, and the distant future. Lets not get them confused.

Of course with all the scare tactics, and Utopian thinking these days, this seems unlikely. This extreme socialist crap is more likely to lead somewhere very bad if history repeats it's self, and it does.

I totally agree with this Quote.

"Venus Project is neo-Marxism with a hightech overlay. Total Tyranny!
In fundamentalist type fashion, it's hard to find a advocate of Venus project that disagrees with certain elements of the design. They just recite Jacque Fresco without critically thinking of its flaws. If one disagrees with VP, they get labeled as not comprehending it, which isn't necessarily true. This nose in the air attitude with a pseudo-intellectual lisp was a red flag to me that VP has a science fiction fanboy cult following."

[Gamekiller]

I came across this song on youtube and I figured I'd share it. It's been posted up for a while but I doubt you've seen it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-PjxqTozhs
Everything happening to Japan makes me terribly sad. Thinking about how many individuals and their lives, their friends and family, the children and the elder were affected instead of numbers really makes the sadness hit home.