Japan quakes

[saaya]

Doesn't matter, even when they would given them realtime information, there would be hundred of people who would say it isn't ture, all lies and spin there own stories and influence other people to belive it and maybe even a bigger news company gets notice of this.

The japanes have my utmost respect, because they still stay calm and disciplined in such a situation, there no looting, no riots, no fighting about supplies even in the regions that got hit the worse... if any other country in the world would have been hit by that there would be such things on a large scale...

yes but most people wouldn't listen to them. If there was a gov site with the latest news who would waste time reading some blog?

I have the utmost respect for the Japanese people.... the gov... not that much...

Even after chernobyl's runaway melt down and closure the quarantine/uninhabited zone is largely relegated to like a 20 mile perimeter of the facility, Tokyo should be safe. With how things are sounding it makes you wonder if they should just cut their losses on the plant at this point and bury the facility in sand and concrete like chernobyl.

Not that I would want to be that close to a damaged plant but we're all going to have to deal with potential Nuclear incidents at some point considering all fossil fuels are a finite resources. Demand for electricity from the grid is only going to continue to increase world wide as will the rate of fossil fuel depletion there are not allot of alternatives in the long term.

If you live in florida you pretty much have Nuclear plants tokyo distance from you wherever you live in the state.

yeah but the radioactivity traveled for thousands of miles and polluted vast areas...
If you bury fukushima in sand it won't make a big difference I think... the gas and steam and radioactive water would leak and escape anyways... you'd only make it harder if not impossible to control the release.

Ok, Guys.
Japan goverment didn`t allow russian airplane with the best nuclear experts onboard to land for about 10 hours...

But now there are good news: russians entered Fukushima !

lol Wtf? For real?

[Dr_Swizz]

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/16_41.html

They aborted the attempt to refill the spent fuel rod pool VIA helicopter cause radiation was too high?
Is this a joke? Radiation is only going to get worse if they don't refill it...
And supposedly the radiation was 50mSv?
Wtf? And that's too high? I thought the plant was around 400mSv and that's not health threatening?

My guess is the radiation is much higher than 50mSv ...

Dropping water from the helicopter was only an experiment. They Russians used helicopters to drop water(?)/sand(?)/lead(?) on the Chernobyl reactor, but it did not work very will. It was also extremely dangerous as they are flying in the middle of the radioactive smoke. Most (all?) of the russian helicopter pilots died. :-(

[WaterFlex]

Yes, that`s real ... I`m from Moscow, Russia. Our plane had taken off as soon as possible. Several hours after, our plane had to land in russian Habarovsk city because Japan announced it wouldn`t allow to land.

[[XC] gomeler]

Russian nuclear experts have arrived. They will save us.

I imagine the Russian's were sitting there thinking "ah, this is going to remind everyone of Chernobyl ".

That whas local, the people that lived there where duped, not the whole globe. No matter how empatic people can be, it makes a different impression on the collective conscious.

Fine. Let's just go with oil. I don't think I need to list the dozens of gigantic oil spills we have created due to our underestimation of our surroundings.

Besides there is hardly a connection between leaking levees and leaking nuclear cores.

You previously said "In fact I have the distinct feeling this event will go as first textbook example of catastrophic failure due to catastrophic overconfidence of mankinds technological domination over the sum of dynamics also called planet blue aka earth."

Um, yes. In this context there is a connection between these two situations. Both cases were brought upon by a natural disaster(hurricane and tsunami) in which we had built something (a city and a nuclear reactor) in the path of the disaster. If the reactor had been built a couple of miles inland were the tsunami couldn't have destroyed the generators we wouldn't have a cooling problem on our hands. We, humans, made a mistake. Whoops. Let's learn from this.

Tsjernobyl was sort of globaly threatening, but was easy to point fingers to russian caricatural incompetence and lack of care (at that time).

Of course it was. The reactor design was HEAVILY flawed. Just like it is very easy to point fingers

Today we consider Japan a very high tech , very disciplined and competent society that do seems to care very much, and are considered experts in dealing with quakes and their surrounding fenomena like tsunamis. But still the safety margins and standards where not high enough because something of this magnitude didden't happen in one honderd+ something years.

Exactly. Unlike Chernobyl where human tinkering caused a catastrophe, Fukushima had a once in a century disaster occur at just the right place for this to happen. I bet if(hopefully) Japan goes on to build some 3rd generator or 4th generator reactors(with even more safety mechanisms) that they will include even higher safety tolerances. The best part is that it seems that the earthquake itself didn't do much damage. It was the subsequent wall of water that mucked everything up.

When playing with this kind of destructif power , you look at the real data of what can happen and make honest calculations, then you ad the safety margins, then you look at the pricetag and decide to go for it or not.

But if you gamble , i call it typical humans catastrophic overconfidence.

And all around the globe people are glued in awe to the news wondering and praying , not only for the direct victims off this horror, but also how it will affect them in the end.

Not locally, globally. Collective conscious.

I'm am pretty sure the negotiations are much more serious now with way more deeper arguments than they ever where. Hence the first.

I guess we'll continue to disagree. Yes, it is a catastrophe, but in the end this isn't going to have world changing effects globally. We'll continue to use nuclear power in aging reactors, the public will continue to be paranoid of nuclear power, the nuclear power industry will still have cover ups and things will continue to move along. I'd love to see more effort put in place to roll out the creation of more modern reactors(thorium breeders!) and the phasing out of these old reactors.

EDIT: it is in no way my intention to put blame or shame on the Japanese people for this, i wisch them all the courage they need and will do my thing to help.

It is more an observation of the general human ways and where it leads to time and time again.

Out of respect for the people suffering now, i will not make any more responses in this thread about this to people that want to discuss this with me . But i strongly disagree with the semi-hidden pro-nuclear messages ive seen here. Thats what made me respond in the first place.[/QUOTE]

[FischOderAal]

But now there is good news: russians entered Fukushima !

Why do you emphasize that they are Russians? Are they something special that they can do something the Japanese failed to do in the past days?

[Kallenator]

Well, Russians are in fact impervious to radiation. ^^

Jokes aside, they are probably there to aid the Japanese in controlling the situation. As they might just have a lot of experience with this given Russian history with nuclear power. There probably is some sort of irony in his sentence as well?

[WaterFlex]

Why do you emphasize that they are Russians? Are they something special that they can do something the Japanese failed to do in the past days?

Just hope...

[WaterFlex]

Well, Russians are in fact impervious to radiation. ^^

Jokes aside, they are probably there to aid the Japanese in controlling the situation. As they might just have a lot of experience with this given Russian history with nuclear power. There probably is some sort of irony in his sentence as well?

Thank you for your words.

[FischOderAal]

Just hope...

That makes two of us mate I really hope they get it under control but I'm a bloody pessimist

[MrToad]

I hope that the combined experience of Japan, US and Russia is enough to bring the situation under control.

For the past five days it has been all misery. I'd really like to start seeing the sun shining through the clouds (so to speak).

I'm still amazed how the people of Japan takes it in the chin tho... As another fellow member posted before in the thread, no looting, no riots, no outbursts of mindless violence... One would think they're one step further away from barbarism than us...

It is to be admired that they can bear indescribable suffering without descending to pre-neanderthal depths...

[[XC] riptide]

Dropping water from the helicopter was only an experiment. They Russians used helicopters to drop water(?)/sand(?)/lead(?) on the Chernobyl reactor, but it did not work very will. It was also extremely dangerous as they are flying in the middle of the radioactive smoke. Most (all?) of the russian helicopter pilots died. :-(

Boron also. It worked very well. IN fact it was one of the key factors that brought it to a close. The limiting factor was the sheer weight of the material they had dropped as it would weaken the foundations of the reactor even more. The immediate deaths from Chernobyl are numbering about 50-60. The all time deaths are estimated by the UN to be *only* 4000.

[[XC] riptide]

Of course it was. The reactor design was HEAVILY flawed. Just like it is very easy to point fingers

A flaw that should have been easy to contain with the necessary staff on duty all the time. They weren't. It was the B Team in charge at the time and the boss still wanted to push through an experiment with the rookies. Three Mile island reactor is actually a safer, stronger containment vessel than this Japanses one.

As for the Reactor been earthquake proof... it was certified up to 8.1. the Earthquake was 8.9. That's 5-6 times stronger than design?

[generics_user]

A flaw that should have been easy to contain with the necessary staff on duty all the time. They weren't. It was the B Team in charge at the time and the boss still wanted to push through an experiment with the rookies. Three Mile island reactor is actually a safer, stronger containment vessel than this Japanses one.

As for the Reactor been earthquake proof... it was certified up to 8.1. the Earthquake was 8.9. That's 5-6 times stronger than design?

quake was 9.0

the containment vessel is american

radiation dropped back to relatively safe levels (although it's still high) according to kyodo news

after this small sign of hope i'm going to deactivate my RSS feeds because all this bad news had a negative impact on my sleep...

[Lanek]

The situation have take a real bad turn some minutes ago, the containment vessel ( reactor 3 if im right ) who is open to the sky, is now completely empty .

[Dr_Swizz]

Boron also. It worked very well. IN fact it was one of the key factors that brought it to a close. The limiting factor was the sheer weight of the material they had dropped as it would weaken the foundations of the reactor even more. The immediate deaths from Chernobyl are numbering about 50-60. The all time deaths are estimated by the UN to be *only* 4000.

My point was that is was very difficult and dangerous to drop that stuff from the helicopters. Hopefully the Japanese will figure out some other easier way of doing it.

Those figures you mention are way too low. There is plenty of confusion and desinformation regarding this. Total death toll is likely in the 100000-200000, if not even higher.

[Micutzu]

The situation have take a real bad turn some minutes ago, the containment vessel ( reactor 3 if im right ) who is open to the sky, is now completely empty .

Is there a source for this kind of fresh news, I can't find anything about this on major news websites ? Last status was that water level in SFP of reactor 3 was low and they were preparing water injection.

[Lanek]

Is there a source for this kind of fresh news, I can't find anything about this on major news websites ? Last status was that water level in SFP of reactor 3 was low and they were preparing water injection.

I was watch the News on the Switzerland TV right now, they was interview a nuclear specialist, they have just get the infos and give it directly.
Now the problem is more how many time it will take for fill it, with the hope they can ofc.

Hard to know exactly, but most infos are now redirected by the IAEA ( international Atomic Enenergy Agency ). But even on their sites, there's a big delay ( maybe for confirm the informations )

[lkiller123]

Can any of our Japanese friends confirm this? I hope it's not true.

http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com...rticle-15.html

A good move IMO.

This will clarify the situation and calm down any unwanted panicking. Even people in the states are fearing of "nuclear clouds blowing over to the west coast." Some people even thought that this might be the next Chenobryl Disaster and fear that this event might destroy Japan.

[Jamesrt2004]

As for the Reactor been earthquake proof... it was certified up to 8.1. the Earthquake was 8.9. That's 5-6 times stronger than design?

8 times more powerful! every .1 is an extra times if that makes sense !

[WaterFlex]

..... http://www.emsc-csem.org/Earthquake/....php?id=214010

[RPGWiZaRD]

..... http://www.emsc-csem.org/Earthquake/....php?id=214010

Mother Earth frowns at russians engaging in Japanese Fukushima nuclear plant operation. O_o

[BrowncoatGR]

I guess we'll continue to disagree. Yes, it is a catastrophe, but in the end this isn't going to have world changing effects globally. We'll continue to use nuclear power in aging reactors, the public will continue to be paranoid of nuclear power, the nuclear power industry will still have cover ups and things will continue to move along. I'd love to see more effort put in place to roll out the creation of more modern reactors(thorium breeders!) and the phasing out of these old reactors.

EDIT: it is in no way my intention to put blame or shame on the Japanese people for this, i wisch them all the courage they need and will do my thing to help.

It is more an observation of the general human ways and where it leads to time and time again.

Out of respect for the people suffering now, i will not make any more responses in this thread about this to people that want to discuss this with me . But i strongly disagree with the semi-hidden pro-nuclear messages ive seen here. Thats what made me respond in the first place.

Too many people are focusing on the immediate effects of radiation and are completely ignoring the fact that if the local soil and water table get contaminated the effects will be very long lasting and difficult to quantify. Additionally nuclear power is far from clean as the waste it produces is extremely dangerous and very costly to manage. Which is why some countries pay poor countries to store the stuff for them. I really hope they get the situation under control.

[Biker]

Latest update:

http://www.jaif.or.jp/english/news_i...300273535P.pdf

Reactors 2 and 4 look to be the biggest worries right now...

[[XC] riptide]

8 times more powerful! every .1 is an extra times if that makes sense !

Ya. Logarithmic scale. So long ago I was good at this.....

[[XC] riptide]

My point was that is was very difficult and dangerous to drop that stuff from the helicopters. Hopefully the Japanese will figure out some other easier way of doing it.

Those figures you mention are way too low. There is plenty of confusion and desinformation regarding this. Total death toll is likely in the 100000-200000, if not even higher.

Yes it is dangerous to drop stuff from helicopter, but in the absence of a better way, it is the only way.

As for the death toll from that incident, the internationally agreed figure is 4000. That 4000 includes people who have not died yet. Greenpeace have said 90,000+ will die/have died but they have an agenda. Some other people put far higher figures but the data has yet to show strong enough trend. Now, birth defects and general sickness... well that is another issue. I could imagine huge numbers all around Europe have been effected.