Questions for the builder/sellers

[theoldtimer]

I’m not sure which section this should be in but if I have posted in the wrong section please move it for me?

Hello everyone I’m new to this section but not to XS. After having used a phase cooler for a few days I thought I would drop by and ask some questions. In hindsight I probably should have asked these questions before I bought a phase cooler though. For what it’s worth I did check into the size and capacity I would need along with reading posts about the builders recommended by the people here in this section.

First question:

What could I expect as to the average life span for a good single stage phase cooler (300w load) at 15/20 hours a week average use?

Second question:

How many here that build and sell these units offer any kind of a warranty? If so what’s the terms of your warranty and who pays shipping during the warranty?

Third question:

As a builder/seller if you do repair your own builds do you normally try to make the repairs in a reasonable amount of time? Do you also try to keep the buyer informed as to the progress of the repairs, return shipping date and then provide a tracking number for the return shipping?

Last question:

If it needs repair and the builder doesn’t, won’t or is no longer around to repair it, what then? Do I have a standard air conditioning guy repair and charge it with standard refrigerant? If so what kind of temps could I expect with this type of refrigerant? I don’t work on them and I don’t know anyone locally that uses some of these different refrigerants you guys use... I did check locally but not extensively.

From what little experience I have had I think that when a phase cooler is working right it is a handy tool to have on the bench but when it stops working there is the potential of a sizable gray area as to what happens next.

[runmc]

As you said it's all grey area unless you agreed on something before sales. Is your cooler not working right?

[theoldtimer]

Thanks for the reply.

My phase cooler worked good for the first couple of days then it wouldn’t hold under load after about the third or fourth day. The builder said he thought the phase cooler may have a leak so I shipped it back. A week or so ago he said it was repaired and now I’m just waiting for it to be shipped back to me.

I started this thread mostly to get some input from the guys that build and sell these units so maybe I could get a better idea of how repairs are normally handled? I understand that the repair policy may change from builder to builder and also based on the type of unit or if the unit is new or used.

Being as you are the only one that even took the time to reply, my take is that these questions I asked must be in a very touchy area, unanswerable or both?

Oh well at least I got one reply, thanks again runmc.

Maybe I should have asked the buyers the same questions?

[Gray Mole]

Sorry Old Timer

Didn't really notice.

I don't know if I'd call myself as much of a 'builder' as some guys out there, but I do guarantee a new unit if I build on. For a year.

Initially it's tested and known to be without flaw, so the development of a leak in shipping would be 'shipping damage'. I buy insurance on everything for shipping, since it's a huge cost to get it back and forth, and ideally that should only happen once.

When it comes to a specific deal a person makes, then things can be different from one builder to another, but a 'guarantee' is for the unit itself.

Shipping through that year isn't normally included, and you may (or may not) find most don't cover that.

Main reason is the price. Most guys who build aren't making a lot, and doing it because they love doing it. I myself am guilty of selling for not a lot more than it costs to build because I enjoy it, and making money isn't really a concern through phase units.

That said, a 'commercial' unit of the same basic quality is quite a bit more expensive. Frozen CPU or any other 'company' may or may not include shipping.

So the question is, would you rather buy a custom unit, pay less, and get (often) a better unit? Or Buy a commercial one for a 'retail' price, from a company so that in case of shipping concerns, it may be covered?

I wouldn't say either is any better or worse than the other. Not many left in the way of commercial units, and the Cooler Express is really quite good now.

If I added up the hours of what I spend on a unit, and multiply that by my wage as a Fridge Tech (Day Job) I think the coolers would be 1000 bucks. Possibly more.

So it's all in perspective I guess. I think if every builder's guarantee included a charge to account for potentialy issues, like leaks or fans breaking or etc etc. then they would cost quite a bit more, and be in line with commercially buit coolers.

Hope I don't come across weird, but I would guess it'd be no different than a guy, say, building a computer. If you built one for someone, and charged 100 bucks to do it for him right? He has an issue, and you cover shipping back and forth. Suddenly you've made less or actually lost money. Because you charged a few hours of time, instead of an extra 2-300 bucks 'just in case' something went wrong.

Same for builders I guess. I mean, companies have a huge markup, because they have to plan for a failure rate. So you're paying 2-3 times as much as it costs them most of the time.

Is that how the phase units should be? Or is it better to keep them (relatively) cheap, and accept there could be an occasion that shipping may be needed, as long as the guy honors the guarantee and fixes it for free?

Gray

[runmc]

If the cooler was boxed right and no damaged appeared to the outside of the box, the leak was more than likely there when it left the builder. If there was no apparent damage to the box or cooler I would say the builder was responsible to fix the cooler and pay shipping. That would be the stand up thing to do. IMHO
Sorry about the leak oldtimer where abouts do you live. I'm an oldtimer too

[Gray Mole]

After re reading, it does come across a bit like I prefer them being cheap and not including things like shipping if something goes wrong.

Not really the case, and I hope it does come across more as a question than a statement of fact.

Do people prefer just paying more once, to ensure that there would be no potential costs (like shipping) in future? I'm kind of curious that way.

My Father is still in the family business, and just bought a fancy shower for my Uncle. He had a stroke, and needs a shower he can 'wheel' into.

So, he talked to the supplier, and got a pretty nice setup for around 1000 bucks, since he's bought tons through them. It retails for 3800 bucks.

So that's kind of an extreme example, but it's what businesses have to do to account for things like incidental damage, flaws in manufacture, etc.

If they sold them for cost or 30% markup, then the company would still make some money, but a few times of having to ship it around, they'd lose. So they charge everyone more, to cover that stuff.

Maybe that'd be a good idea for phase guys I guess. But if things like that are charged up front, then the money has to come from somewhere.

Hope that's more clear? It's how it would have to work I guess.


Gray

[wdrzal]

I think there should be more full discloser on the parts used to build a unit:
1: are the all new,with manufactures warrenty.
2: are they new old stock.
3: are they recycled from a old AC or refrigeration unit.
4 each major componate should be listed as to its source.
5 is the tubing ,evap ect new or recycled.

To a trained eye poor brazes and construction is apperant (overall build quality), but not to a newby ,they don't notice these things. A poor build in a pretty case is still a poor build. And in refrigeration, the prep work and many of the steps a customer doesn't see determines how long a build will last.

Leaks on joints usually don't come from shipping,only where the shipping container is crushed or penatrated and dented or poked a hole is the shipping company responsable. Also units need to be designed to be shipped. If parts are not secure and they move and puncture on another during normal shipping there is a case that that builder didn't design enough strength into the unit and package the unit securely for shipping.

Look at how builders handled past issues,or the number of issues. They come up even from the best builders,time to time.But the best builders handle them quickly & professionally until the customer is satisfied.. Good timely communication that you feel is honest and up front is one sign of a good builder.

Walt

[Gray Mole]

Agreed on a lot, but the boxes don't always show poor handling.

Last couple, I've been using softer material in the boxes.

Got ahold of some foam filled bags from previously shipped items. Creates 'crumple zones' so when the thing is dropped (usually repeatedly and mercilessly) the unit can have padding inside the box.

A wooden crate will protect the outside, sure, but the insides are a lot like the inside of a human body. Your skin can look fine, but internal injuries show up later.

Same deal with the fridges. If it's an open build, you can see if there's anything obviously bent. But it a case, they could have dropped it hard enough to bend the pipework especially at the condensor. Most common spot for leakage I see on any unit, and it's not really anything to do with how it's brazed.

That unit Volskier(?) mentioned in the phase forum seems a good example of that. I mean, the box you could see some damage and it really sounded like the condensor inlet was busted. But that's part of why I'm trying to shy away from open builds, way harder to pack it well enough to stop the gorilla's from breaking something.

But the 'crumple zone' system works really well with cars, so I've tried it that way and it's been working fine so far.

In that respect, I prefer a slightly softer box with lots of foam inside. At least then you can see if it's got a crushed spot, even if there's no damage inside. Just means using a larger box to leave room for it.


Gray

[theoldtimer]

First I don’t want anyone that reads this thread to get the idea that I am pointing a finger at the guy that built my phase cooler saying that he is an unsatisfactory builder. I will say, as is true of all of us, the builder can make improvements, a preshipping checklist with a once over bolts and connections would be nice then taking the time to communicate progress, setbacks or shipping dates with the buyer once the unit is back in your hands for the repair would really be helpful.

Second I’d like to thank you guys for coming forward with the input. I was beginning to think nobody really wanted to discuss it.

Gary I understand where you are coming from about the shipping cost being built into the unit price and how it may discourage a customer from buying. A one year guarantee especially if it includes parts and labor, IMO is very good. Like you said and I can verify, (@ just shy of $100 roundtrip) shipping cost are a problem for both the builder and or the buyer. As a first time buyer and user of a phase cooler I can only offer an opinion based on reason as to the cause of a system leak as being caused by shipping or a leak that started before the shipping occurred. Based on reasoning I do agree with runmc and wdrzal that if a leak is caused by shipping damage one would think that the shipping container should exhibit signs of damage. To me a leak in the first few weeks or month I feel the buyer should at the worst be asked to split costs I pay shipping out you pay shipping back. Six, eight months or near the full year I guess the buyer paying the shipping both ways isn’t all that unreasonable. There again what do I know I’m a first timer?

Thanks runmc, I’m old enough to realize that things happen and stuff breaks fact is in this hobby things break a lot. I just want to understand what is normal and what to expect. I live in Ohio BTW.

Thanks for the input wdrzal it’s very helpful.

[wdrzal]

A Good braze is as strong or stronger as the tube itself. Many brazes I see are too "cold". (solidus)

[Gray Mole]

A Good braze is as strong or stronger as the tube itself. Many brazes I see are too "cold". (solidus)

That's for sure!

The 'weakest' rating I could find on a braze was 50000psi tensile. Don't know what that would translate into for burst, but it's very strong.

Biggest problem I see is condensors.

The copper pipe you buy is pretty strong, but the pipe they use in a lot of condensors is really thin. It's thin for a good reason, transferring heat is much easier through a thinner copper, especially when they rifle the bore, but it also means that a 'rough ride' can put pressure on the inlet pipe especially (not always the outlet, the filter/captube normally doesn't stress it as much as the weight of the compressor bouncing on the rubber feet) and that doesn't take long to rupture it.

I've seen porous brazes from too high heat, and 'capped' brazes from too little heat, but if it's sealed when it leaves (builders do have a legal obligation to pressure test rigorously) then it should survive a trip, rough or not.

Pinholes on the evap, and ruptured condensors are the 2 biggest leaks I normally see. Evap, really the builder's fault. Condensor, shipping damage.

A capped braze can leak from shipping though, even gentle shipping.

So it's not always the fault of the courier if there's a leak, but if it's built well (and a lot of the builders that are left seem to be doing it right) then it's usually just rough handling.

And a lot of couriers just don't pay attention to 'fragile' or take it as a challenge to break it.

But yeah, if I shipped a unit and it leaked out and the box wasn't mangled, I'd cover shipping back and forth. It's only right.



Gray

[theoldtimer]

Any of you guys willing to share your opinions on my first and last questions in the original post? Thanks for the input on the other questions.

[Gray Mole]

Oh yeah, always going off on a tangent must be getting old

Right, well a fridge is a fridge for the most part, though there are differences in application that are hard to explain. A system can work at a higher or lower pressure, depending on design. Whether intentional or not, this will affect it's lifespan to some extent. I don't know if I'd say it's as rellevent a factor as quality of compressor, but it kind of goes hand in hand.

A lower quality compressor, with a condensor that is undersized, running excessively high load (which means both significantly higher pressure, and low mass flow return to cool the compressor) or perhaps the fins are filled with dust or cat hair. This can end up being a unit that could fail within a year or 2. Sometimes more, some less.

I had a Mach2 unit come to me with a damaged compressor. It was running with a broken condensor fan for a few weeks.

That's a pretty drastic example, but any condensor that is unable to remove enough heat to keep the pressure down and/or ensure adequate compressor cooling, will lead to compressor failure.

So...

Worst case on a poor/underpowered/excessive load/cheap compressor kind of unit...

Should last at least a year. Maybe more. Maybe a lot more. But I wouldn't count on it.

Best case on a very well made, high quality compressor, high capacity condensor, unit capacity 20% or more than it's actual use (ensures better return cooling for the compressor)...

Should last 5 years bare minimum really. Some old fridges I see last 30+ years. I realise they don't do 24/7 but the point is, that if it's engineered correctly, then it will last for a long time. Probably longer than the fan that was installed.

I know it's not a really clear answer, but there really is no clear answer. Too many variables, and it's too reliant on parts used and experience/understanding of the builder.

So for 'who', well that's pretty hard too.


See, most of the guys I work with have no idea what I'm making. It's a fridge, and they see the parts, but a 'fridge tech' doesn't often get into anything outside of work, and least of all miniature direct die cooling.

But on the plus side, they will all have the gas and there are some more simplified ways to get it regassed to a safe working level without having all of the test equipment.

Gas is gas. Whether 290/404a/507/134a they're all refrigerant gasses, and often your local 'fridge guy' will have them, even if he's unfamiliar with tuning methods for captube systems.

More often, you just post that you need a guy to fix one and there will probably always be someone here (or on other forums) to point you in the direction of a good fridge tech.


Gray

[theoldtimer]

Thanks Gary for taking the time to share your experience and knowledge while answering my questions. It is appreciated. I went into this hoping to get a year of good use from the unit so if it works out that way when I get it back I guess it will be ok.

I did talk to one local air conditioning repairman about working on my phase cooler but when he found out the gases used for the charge he declined the repair. He stated that he didn’t have those gases on hand so he would have to buy them and if he did the repair I would have to pay for the entire 40# containers regardless of how much he used because he didn’t use those gases and had no further use for the remainder of the gases in the bottles. He also stated I would have to pay for a set of gauges to be used in the charging of those gases as the gauges were only good for a certain range of gases and his gauges weren’t in the range of the gases used to charge my phase cooler? Anyway with the projected repair cost climbing above what I paid for the phase cooler plus me being new to phase cooling and totally clueless on what is fact or fiction in regard to the equipment, tools or gases I just thanked him for his time and moved on.

[Gray Mole]

Sounds like you just experienced what I normally do, talking to the guys I've worked with.

Guages are guages. Just because the decal has different numbers on them doesn't mean you can't use them. But reading a PT chart isn't something you need to do in AC very often. If at all.

Only thing to watch for is if the guy's guages are full of oil from recovery. Then you can get some oil contamination. If he only works with POE based systems then it's not an issue, but if he switches from R22 to 404a systems on the same guages, oil can get into the guage set.

What gas is the unit using?

Most AC guys will have 134a and 404a at the very least, and if you're running 507 in a unit, 404a could be 'dropped in' with next to no perceptible difference in performance.

Worst case, you might lose a couple of degrees. Something to keep in mind if that's the case. As long as your compatible with the oil that the compressor uses it's fine. Definitely a better option than having to pay for a full bottle of gas.

But that doesn't mean that AC guys aren't capable techs, just that this kind of cooling's a bit specialised. Whatever you do every day you get good at.

Gray

[theoldtimer]

Thanks again Gary for sharing all this information and I hope I don’t tire you with all my questions but the more I learn the more I may understand or at minimum I’ll be better informed. So if you’re willing I do have just few more questions then I’ll quit taking up so much of your time.

I’m not sure now but I think r404 may be it or at least one of the ones that could be used? So if I don’t really know which gas was used would I be better off having the compressor oil changed to the correct one for the known new gas? Are some compressors only capable of using certain oils or is the type of charge the only determining factor in the type of oil used? Does changing the oil add much to the cost of charging the system? Does 40# of 404 or any of the gases used in these phase coolers cost a lot of money? Can I buy a smaller container, does it store well?

Do you guys normally mix some of the gases to gain better performance with these phase coolers?

[Gray Mole]

No problem

I have a cold anyways, and it's waking me up in the middle of the night, so I may as well spend some time here

Ok, well for gasses yes, some do mix and some don't. It can be useful in lower head pressures, and gaining oil compatibility. Some use it to increase glide, I suppose it depends on what the builder is trying to accomplish in the cooler.

Mixing gasses can be done without any real detriment to a system, though at times it can make performance worse rather than better. It's a topic of much debate, since Engineers are trained to mix gasses and achieve blends that are specifically rated and have PT reference. As soon as you change that, there is no way to get specific data on it, and you're 'flying blind'. However, I and others have had pretty good success with it. Just depends on experience, and of course the time spent tuning to a degree of idyllic condition.

Oils, on the other hand, should never be mixed. The whole point of oil is to lubricate the compressor. Nothing more. There are really only 2 types used, along with others that are more about temperature.

POE is for the newer gasses. 404a, 134a, 507...POE will mix with those gasses. It's about getting the oil back to the compressor instead of pooling up.

MO (mineral based) is for R22, 402a, 502 etc. MO mixes with them.

AB is a synthetic variant of MO, and is for lower temp. You will normally find that AB is recommended for 502 and 402a and this is often in low temp applications. It freezes up at a lower temperature.

Zerol 150 is another variant, and miscible to -100 in some gas applications.

You just don't want to mix them. Some will mix to a certain extent, but often it becomes a gooey mess, plugging captubes.

Changing the oil is expensive. Takes flushing, so time, and takes oil, which is pretty brutal. Can cost 50 bucks a litre. Definitely worth it if you're recycling a compressor from an old system, or converting to a different gas.

A way around that is hydrocarbons. A component of 402a is actually R290. This is a flammable refrigerant (propane) and will mix with all oils. Hydrocarbon refrigerants are great for that, and a 5% mix is often enough to ensure oil compatiblity without any serious change to the PT of a gas, and in that small a mix is not flammable.

402a is not officially compatible with POE, but a slight boost to the 290 component will ensure that. I've tested it myself and it's been fine.

404a is a decent gas for a SS and designed correctly, will be very close to 507 in performance. In a mach2 type unit with a smaller condensor it is often a better choice. If the system is capable of removing more heat at the condensor, then 507 or 402a can be much better. All in the design. 290, in the 5% mix, can remove the need for oil replacement. Blending is something that should only be done by someone capable of measuring the amounts, and has at least some experience in the matter.

Buying small containers is difficult. Some of the larger distributors (air liquide, BOC etc) may offer that, but for the most part the size is a standard at 30 pounds or larger. You must have a handling licence.

As long as you have a seal (which is a legal requirement) then the gas will 'keep' forever. It doesn't go bad. It should never 'seep' out of a bottle.

I hope that covers most things. It's all a bit complicated at first, then over time it all makes sense.


Gray

[theoldtimer]

Gary you have gone above beyond any answer that I figured I receive, not only in this last post but in all your posts in this thread. You must truly enjoy what you do. Lots and lots of great info Gary, you have been very helpful.

Fact is all you guys that have posted in this thread have been helpful. I’d like to thank each of you for your help.

[runmc]

You need to get in contact with some one who services walk in coolers or ice machines or ice cream boxes. A regular air conditioner man probably won't have 404a, 507 on hand. If it's a simple leak it should be no problem.
Mark Twain (ooops I mean Grey) may have mentioned this, but I don't have time to read through his novel he just wrote.

[Gray Mole]

Thank you Ron I've changed my title, just for you

[theoldtimer]

You need to get in contact with some one who services walk in coolers or ice machines or ice cream boxes. A regular air conditioner man probably won't have 404a, 507 on hand. If it's a simple leak it should be no problem.
Mark Twain (ooops I mean Grey) may have mentioned this, but I don't have time to read through his novel he just wrote.

Thanks runmc, that's good to know.

For some reason my builder hasn't shipped my repaired phase cooler back? He's had it fixed for a while now? So maybe I won't be needing all this information after all? I have still have my poor boy's chiller to fall back on though so I can still bench.

[runmc]

Thank you Ron I've changed my title, just for you

hehehehe Gray - I like the new title better than the old one. It's on a more positive note

Thanks runmc, that's good to know.

For some reason my builder hasn't shipped my repaired phase cooler back?

Who's the builder? I won't tell anybody.

[Dumo]

OT...Hope all will be ok

I'm lucky to have 2 old stock phase changers that still crankin' (GT and LS)...time to time it became relevant again with new cpu

[theoldtimer]

hehehehe Gray - I like the new title better than the old one. It's on a more positive note



Who's the builder? I won't tell anybody.

I've said too much already and I really don't want to cause anyone any problems. The price of a phase cooler just isn't worth hurting someone. One things for sure though even as an old guy I still have many lessons to learn.

[theoldtimer]

OT...Hope all will be ok

I'm lucky to have 2 old stock phase changers that still crankin' (GT and LS)...time to time it became relevant again with new cpu

Thanks Dumo, nice to hear from you. Have you had any trouble with you old phase changers? How old are they anyway?