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Thread: High load Vapo mod Guide

  1. #51
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    Yep

    It's only particularly relevant to higher loads. Maybe I should be a bit more detailed about that, and why I use it, why i post it.

    When loads were 200w or less, this mod was pointless. No worth the effort the the gains provided. 1 or 2 degrees at best and that's hard to test and confirm.

    When loads started to reach 300 and up, I started playing with tuning methods. SLHX setups, suction volume, evap setups, etc.

    Getting a system that at least got the condensor capacity for the higher load is always a requirement. But in those, if you add more gas you end up with floodback grief.

    So you add more suction volume, larger accumulators, larger larger less compact and it's a pain.

    So a more elegant approach became necessary (to me at least) to get past that. My intention wasn't better temps, it was dealing with load in a more compact fashion. The initial idea, you get the captube colder, the return pipe warmer. Vaporisation's better, floodback reaction reduced.

    And that's a part of it, but it became a lot more when I played with it.

    Subcooling the captube made it need less gas. I've kept track of the usual amounts in the different systems, and I noticed that was a trend with the mod. Same capacity, less gas to have it.

    At higher load testing, high pressure was lower. So I start thinking about the why, and can only assume that it's the captube that's the key. Raise the level of subcooling, increase the liquid to gas ratio IN the captube, there's less gas in the rest of the system, pressure's lower. (it's not that simple, but along the lines of where I've gone in theory)

    Lower pressure to condense means lower pressure to evaporate at that high load. Compressors operate with a high and low pressure that are connected to each other, based on the power of a the compressor.

    Slightly lower power consumption, since the less work the compressor does (with lower pressure to condense) with less strain, the less power it needs to do it's work.

    I came up with the setup for the ease of high load tuning. The improvements were more or less a lucky byproduct that I found and started playing with, trying to get the best location, best captube sizing to work with it, etc etc and this is as good as it is so far.

    But that's about it, and I'm kinda 'done' with this mod. If you have a question you're welcome to PM me about it, but the thread's been nothing but grief since day 1, with only a couple of bright spots. I wanted to help out, not start an argument, and that's all I've much seen from it.

    So if you like it, use it (or any variation you like of it) and if you think it doesn't work, don't use it.

    But I can't really make myself care much about it anymore. Nothing personal, when your dog bites you every time you give him a bone, you stop giving out the bones.

    It sounds like there's someone interested in doing some further research and testing on it, and if they do and post and all that, they can take over. When that happens the questions can go there instead.


    Gray
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  2. #52
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    It may be as old as meat and potatoes but its still not needed with a properly sized compressor.

    I am backing off the condenser size though because frankly I have proven myself wrong
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  3. #53
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    Bigger is not always better.
    1/2hp compressors are used in 6000 btu window air conditioners moving ~2000W of heat efficiently. Bigger is not needed.


    If you have a cooling question or concern feel free to contact me.

  4. #54
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    Several of the older experienced hvac tech - Reggie - Gary Loyd - Bowman all advocated soldering suction to liquid line and captube to suction line. They knew more about phase change than anyone that's still on the forums. A lot more.
    UNDER THE ICE .com
    Phase Change Cooling

    is the remedy

  5. #55
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    They also really liked running the captube up the flexible line. I remember making a few linesets like that, what a pain in the bum.


    If you have a cooling question or concern feel free to contact me.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337 View Post
    They also really liked running the captube up the flexible line. I remember making a few linesets like that, what a pain in the bum.
    LOL - I tried that myself Adam but that was a PITA. Wasn't that a VapoChill trick?
    Reggie always suggested using that 3M tape to wrap the captube tightly against the suction line all the way back to the evap. He also suggested soldering suction to liquid line.
    If you recall there was Bowman's workshop but I think that got lost in a server crash. He had lots of neat tricks.
    UNDER THE ICE .com
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    is the remedy

  7. #57
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    I may have it actually. My "directory" of old photos is now just over 1,000 though and unorganized. Lots of workshops in there.

    That was a vapochill trick for a while, but everyone else tried it as well. Flex line ending with a T and dragging it through. Then there was the brass evap tops with Bakers. And using flares and bad flex lines. The 3M tape is decent but not as effective as soldering, but with flex lines you get little transfer anyway unless you wrap the cap tube into the grooves. I only use braided flex the last few years though, so thats a no go. Arctic ceramique lathered onto a section, wrap in captube tight, then wrap tightly with electrical or float tape THEN heatshrink works well, always been my favorite. I'm starting to reconsider very large evaporators and TXV's so that an SLHX can be properly employed. That or just moving back to miny SLHX/Accumulators. Either way I don't think it's necessary with proper gas, cap tube, and condenser sizing. It's just a pain. Evaporators need to be expanded to handle the volume increase (which is what I still feel is the major bottleneck).

    Let me see what I can dig up.


    If you have a cooling question or concern feel free to contact me.

  8. #58
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    I guess what I'm seeing, and it's a bit disappointing, is the general 'it's good enough' 'It's too much hassle' and 'bigger does just as well as better' thinking.

    I mean, with that kind of approach I guess we can say that turbochargers are a waste of time, fuel injection is just too much to deal with, and multiple injection cycles aren't worth the quieter diesels or better fuel economy.

    I know this isn't an R&D thinktank but XS was always about getting things better. We're about as cold as refrigeration can be in here. So there's not a lot further to go that way is there?

    So making a 2 stage cascade that takes smaller compressors, uses less power, and gets the same general results as you used to have 1-2hp compressors for...is that worth it?

    Maybe I'm talking to wrong crowd. Maybe this thread really doesn't have much of a place here.

    Guess I'm willing to try anything, risk wrecking a whole 5 bucks worth of captupe, and keep trying to get better results from smaller setups using methods that haven't been tested yet, or haven't had a place until now.

    I really do wish some of the old guys would come back. The ones that did it for the love of the game, and not just to suck as much money as they can out of the forum.

    The 'I don't bother making anything unless someone's paying me to do it' attitude really wasn't there before. Guess people would buy just about any phase unit they could get back then too though. It's a shame that the phase forum has turned into such a 'status quo' kind of place.

    So it would seem that I was wrong to bother with posting this. Or really anything that's different. Not really 'worth the bother'.

    Guess anyone that's really interested in R&D is either gone, or just doesn't build much any more. Just a money game now.


    Gray
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  9. #59
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    My 7 years old unmoded stock vapochill LS cried (literally) when loaded with 3930K 5.4Ghz 6c/12t 1.63Vcore benching Vantage cpu -3C+ load. Lol

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Mole View Post

    Guess anyone that's really interested in R&D is either gone, or just doesn't build much any more. Just a money game now.


    Gray
    Hey slow down cowboy! This thread has me digging out my old vapochill xe unit to see if it is worthwhile pulling it down from the attic and trying to modify it myself. Also Noob's little competition friend has peaked my interest and I plan on maybe having a go at that once I can source the compressor required hopefully from the Johnstone supplies.
    There is still some interest here and I would much prefer to use smaller compressors especially for 24/7 units instead of watching my lights dim every time a monster SS starts up...
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  11. #61
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    Don't worry on the compressor too much biglipzit, I will have them ready to go at a significant discount to anyones prices. They fit in flat rate shipping boxes too!

    Glad to hear your excited though


    If you have a cooling question or concern feel free to contact me.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by biglipzit View Post
    Hey slow down cowboy! This thread has me digging out my old vapochill xe unit to see if it is worthwhile pulling it down from the attic and trying to modify it myself. Also Noob's little competition friend has peaked my interest and I plan on maybe having a go at that once I can source the compressor required hopefully from the Johnstone supplies.
    There is still some interest here and I would much prefer to use smaller compressors especially for 24/7 units instead of watching my lights dim every time a monster SS starts up...
    I hope so...and honestly there's nothing I'd like more than to be proven wrong.

    The reasons for posting this, and the posts on the smaller cascade setups, it's been about making better coolers. Not just mine, everyone's.

    Using a larger compressor to get the same result is an option. But if you can use a larger compressors and get a better result using this it's just as great in my books. Getting better out of anything you make is Xtreme in my books.

    I hoped that posting this, and the results of different units I keep making that are small but tend to get similar results to previously larger units, would inspire a new trend in more creative thinking when it comes to refrigeration in general and PC cooling specifically.

    Water cooling, air cooling, even LN2 has seen dramatic improvements over the years using new tech or just new thinking and approaches.

    PC refrigerated cooling has stagnated. Bigger is better and that's all that's come up. I've been trying to change that, and in my own work I've succeeded. I don't post the units so I can make and sell more. I usually sell a cascade for around 800 or 900 bucks, or a SS for around 4 or 500 bucks, I make squat. I sell more, I make more squat. It's just fun. Some do it for a profit, I don't. A hobby that doesn't actually cost me money to do, that's rare. I have XS to thank for that.

    Guys want to run it like a business, more power to them, but that's not me. Not any more. Posting stuff like this should make it easier for everyone to make stuff just as good as mine. Better, if they try hard enough.

    Sound selfless? Maybe. Giving away my tuning secrets seem stupid? Sure. But it's not for you, or even for the guys I mentioned before that I owe pretty much all the success I've had in my career by inspiring me to get into refrigeration and do the best I can to stay at the technical end of it.

    It's because XS means a lot to me. The forum deserves my best, our best, and it may sound a bit overconfident, but so far this kind of forward thinking in SS units, it really IS the best. All it takes it comparing previous units that you've (I'm talking builders here, any of 'em) made, and reworking one with this kind of mod into it and comparing results once you have the hang of it and the tuning around it (which is a touch different)

    So, Mr. Big (or should I say Zit? ) I hope you do drag it out. I hope you get great results with it. I hope that this stuff helps. It took me years to figure out what it could do for what I make. Took hours to post it (I'm terrible with pics) and it's taken huge amounts of time (especially in PM's with some guys) to go through it, explain, advise, and try to get more people to use it. Because it works. And because it's worth the time and effort. Mine, and theirs.

    None of this is really 'new' and if you looked at different refrigerated products, stripped them down to see what's there, what works (like I have over and again) then you'd find this and other weird things they do to make things happen (whether it's for this reason or others) but using methods to improve subcooling really IS as old as refrigeration itself. Just applying it creatively is newer. Packaging it up into a thread to make it accesible to everyone, that's new. Getting 5 degrees better (or more) from the exact same unit for the sake of 10 more minutes of your time, and maybe 5 bucks more worth of materials(other than the condensor of course, but if you make a unit that's already got a big condensor it IS just the $5 mod), that's new too.

    I'm not looking to go head to head with any other builder's units. I'm looking to see other guys go head to head with their OWN units. Make and identical unit to one you already have using this mod. See what it does. Test the hell out of it. Do a 300w test, see if the temps are better, see if the power consumption's lower, see if it gives an easier time of high load tuning.

    If it's fallen on mostly deaf ears it's a real shame. But I guess I have to try to remember that if it even helps out one guy do a better job with a cooler, or one builder go from 1+hp compressors to .5hp compressors to make the same Cascade results, then all the other stuff just doesn't matter.

    Thanks

    Gray
    Last edited by Gray Mole; 03-13-2012 at 01:17 AM.
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