Patent lawsuit: "majority" of Seagate, WD drives infringing

[ripken204]

Seagate/WD could be in some serious trouble if this goes through...
Including a large payment and possibly having to redesign all of their hard drives.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/n...infringing.ars

Rembrandt IP Management is "focused on attaining fair value for infringed patents," and it thinks it has two winning patents on its hands that could affect the entire US hard drive industry. Rembrandt today filed suit against both Seagate and Western Digital in federal court, alleging that most of their hard drives violate a pair of patents Rembrandt purchased from inventor Uri Cohen.

Western Digital and Seagate make a host of branded hard-drives and hard-drive based products. Rembrandt's chairman, Dr. Paul Schneck, tells Ars that the alleged patent infringement affects "the majority of their products." Indeed, the complaints name Seagate's Free Agent, Replica, Black Armor, Expansion, Barracuda, Momentus, Savvio, Cheetah, Constellation, Pipeline, DB35, and SV35 disk drives. Western Digital's products include the company's popular My Book line, along with Elements, ShareSpace, My Passport, RE3, Caviar, and Scorpio.

Taken together, that's a lot of hard drives. While Schneck can't say yet what Rembrandt will want in damages, he does mention that the US hard drive market is around $12 billion a year and that Seagate and Western Digital have "a sizable piece of that market." Rembrandt wants a "reasonable royalty" to cover the use of its tech.

The two patents at issue concern low-noise toroidal thin film read/write heads that minimize magnetic interference. Such heads are important for current high-capacity drives; noise and interference become more important the tighter the storage density.



How much is this worth?
Both patents were filed back in 1997 by Uri Cohen, a California inventor who eventually launched his own investigations of Seagate and Western Digital drives. Convinced that the companies were using his work without compensation, Cohen found himself unable to secure licenses; he was also short of cash to fund a hugely expensive patent lawsuit in federal court. So he sold his patents to Rembrandt, which has the deep pockets needed to see the litigation through.

"We believe based on information that [Cohen] communicated and on our further investigations that there is infringement," Schneck explained to Ars, though Rembrandt did not approach either drive maker before filing the lawsuit.

The lawsuits were filed today in, of all places, Wisconsin's Western District, where Schneck says that Seagate has a facility.

"We're feeling very good about it," Schneck says, though we're sure the same can't be said by Western Digital and Seagate—or by the other drive manufacturers who could well be next in line if the patents prove lucrative.

[Sparky]

Not again. ANOTHER one who just sits and waits forever until there is a lot of "damages" accrued, then they strike?

Sometimes I think there should be a time limit. If you sit back and do nothing for x amount of time, then that's your own dumb fault and you can't sue over it anymore. Would help prevent people/companies/whatever from taking advantage of the system like that.

[kuroikenshi]

Not again. ANOTHER one who just sits and waits forever until there is a lot of "damages" accrued, then they strike?

Sometimes I think there should be a time limit. If you sit back and do nothing for x amount of time, then that's your own dumb fault and you can't sue over it anymore. Would help prevent people/companies/whatever from taking advantage of the system like that.

yeah that's right, specially when these copyrights were filed so long ago... what a way to milk the cow uh.

[zalbard]

Not again. ANOTHER one who just sits and waits forever until there is a lot of "damages" accrued, then they strike?

Sometimes I think there should be a time limit. If you sit back and do nothing for x amount of time, then that's your own dumb fault and you can't sue over it anymore. Would help prevent people/companies/whatever from taking advantage of the system like that.

Agreed. What's reasonable, though? 1 year? 5 years?

[Solus Corvus]

Looks like this was a legitimate patent that both WD and Seagate ignored. But the owner couldn't afford the lawsuit so he sold the IP to a patent troll.

[Sn0wm@n]

eee ok .. but the point of a patent is it belongs to that person .. and if indeed wd and seagate did in fact stole some intelectual property its a bad thing .. come on people ... try to invent some stuff and when the day your invention will get stolen see how much pissed you will be ...


so much fail comment in this thread ....


id rather wait for judgment by a judge before i can comment anymore then this on this topic

[NovoRei]

They propabaly didnt stole, just developed the same technology.

[ColonelCain]

eee ok .. but the point of a patent is it belongs to that person .. and if indeed wd and seagate did in fact stole some intelectual property its a bad thing .. come on people ... try to invent some stuff and when the day your invention will get stolen see how much pissed you will be ...


so much fail comment in this thread ....


id rather wait for judgment by a judge before i can comment anymore then this on this topic

/facepalm

The point here is people using the fact that they infringed to their own benefit. From reading that, it looks like the inventor knew for some time that his tech was used. He then sold the tech to a patent troll, who then decided to sit on it until they could make a sh**-ton of money off of it. Notice how the filer specifically noted the estimate in sales of HDD's. This isn't about protecting someones IP. It's about making money. Which is not what the patent system was designed for.

[Sn0wm@n]

/facepalm

The point here is people using the fact that they infringed to their own benefit. From reading that, it looks like the inventor knew for some time that his tech was used. He then sold the tech to a patent troll, who then decided to sit on it until they could make a sh**-ton of money off of it. Notice how the filer specifically noted the estimate in sales of HDD's. This isn't about protecting someones IP. It's about making money. Which is not what the patent system was designed for.

yeahh and the inventor banked on his own invention ... how fail is that right



of course its about making money .. buts its his invention until its proven its not ,..... so please stop with the epic fail comments .... what if it was you huh

[Humminn55]

Not again. ANOTHER one who just sits and waits forever until there is a lot of "damages" accrued, then they strike?

Sometimes I think there should be a time limit. If you sit back and do nothing for x amount of time, then that's your own dumb fault and you can't sue over it anymore. Would help prevent people/companies/whatever from taking advantage of the system like that.

Kind of reading comprehension fail on your part, Sparky.

Guess you missed the part where Cohen, the inventor, attempted to obtain licensing from WD and Seagate. Both companies probably blew him off....knowing he had no money/resources for a prolonged lawsuit battle.

So he did what he could do....sold the patents to someone who saw profit. Is that wrong? May be not the best way to solve his problem, but what would you do if you invented something, patented it and had to just watch two big companies troll patents, discover yours, "copy" it (steal it is more appropriate), and then get blown off when you confront the companies that stole your patent?

Sit back and cry? Post on forums about how bad those big old companies were?

He did what he could....sold it for what he could get. You can criticize Rembrandt but it'll take an individual or company with deep pockets like Rembrandt to get even larger companies to fess up to IP theft, if that's what happened. And remember, Rembrandt bought the rights to the patent on a gamble that they could get a settlement/court verdict in their favor. It very well could go against them, in which case they lost their gamble and have little to show for their payment for Cohen's patent.

[blindbox]

Guess you missed the part where Cohen, the inventor, attempted to obtain licensing from WD and Seagate. Both companies probably blew him off....knowing he had no money/resources for a prolonged lawsuit battle.

Yep, this is the saddest part. Unlike rambus who stole other people's idea and make it their patents, this guy just wants his money since 1997. It now belongs to the patent troll company though.

EDIT: Still, how are they going to prove that the design used by seagate and WD is the same one in the patent?

[Sparky]

You're assuming that the companies did purposely stole his designs, and blew him off when he wanted licensing over it. Perhaps they developed it too, and when he wanted licensing they got miffed since they developed what they were using. Is it identical? Is it really they stole from him or is it similiar in a way and the guy just wants a cut?

Could go either way. Just saying. I don't know, you don't know, we really don't know.

[Solus Corvus]

EDIT: Still, how are they going to prove that the design used by seagate and WD is the same one in the patent?

A microscope would probably be a good place to start.

You're assuming that the companies did purposely stole his designs, and blew him off when he wanted licensing over it. Perhaps they developed it too, and when he wanted licensing they got miffed since they developed it.

Could go either way. Just saying.

In that case the one that applied for the patent first wins.

[570091D]

Not again. ANOTHER one who just sits and waits forever until there is a lot of "damages" accrued, then they strike?

Sometimes I think there should be a time limit. If you sit back and do nothing for x amount of time, then that's your own dumb fault and you can't sue over it anymore. Would help prevent people/companies/whatever from taking advantage of the system like that.

this.

waiting until a supposedly stolen piece of tech is implemented across one or more companies product lines before filing a lawsuit is just wrong. this has the potential to kill a company and competition in the market. a time limit for filing lawsuits would go a long way in stopping this practice, and would bring some finantial stability to the tech industry.

[SandyTunnel]

Not again. ANOTHER one who just sits and waits forever until there is a lot of "damages" accrued, then they strike?

Sometimes I think there should be a time limit.

There is. All patents become public domain in 20 years.

There's 2 sides to every story. If he did invent the technology, and some big company(ies) said "Go pound sand", he deserves the money. If he's one of the bottom-feeders of the world, that just filed a generic patent and was waiting all of this time, then he deserves to get his meals in a soup kitchen.

[prava]

It seems some people are not watching at the whole picture and I mean it, seriously, because it is HUGE.

Patent trolling is a huge issue in the US based specifically in the enourmous amount of money it costs to go to court (which is ridicolous, it should be nearly free to deffend what is yours, and this is one of the biggest issues about why big companies go along...you just don't have enough money to risk to lose, and as such you just pay).

Right now it is totally stupid to apply copyright because the demanding companies can:
a) Ask for whatever quantity of money they see fit as long as does not mean bankrupcy for Seagate and WD (because they already have stablished many many lines based on those patents and as such it won't be feasible to change them from one day to another.
b) WD and Seagate will have to stop producing those goods.

All in all its bad for everyone. Patents should be MANDATORY to be asked for in a timely manner AND at a fair price. It just makes no sense to wait until your patent is huge to demand a price that will only be accepted because the other part has no other way to keep in business, and no matter which way you look at it its W R O N G, because it kills innovation, as many companies just patent everything they can see fit and play the waiting them: law should just 'em and only let them patent stuff if they plan to use it or sell it in a few years (20 years? You have to be really kidding me).

eee ok .. but the point of a patent is it belongs to that person .. and if indeed wd and seagate did in fact stole some intelectual property its a bad thing .. come on people ... try to invent some stuff and when the day your invention will get stolen see how much pissed you will be ...

Not the same stuff, not at all. Imagine you invent something: companies will be able to CHOOSE between using your stuff or not and, if they do, they will have to pay a price that fits both (that or investigating on their own). Instead, you patent something, the other part does not know and gets to the same conclusion yet you wait for 10 years until the ball is big enough that you can put as many terms as you want in the contract and they will never say no, they just can't. How the heck is that fair?

Patents are meant to defend peoples investments and to give credit where it belongs, NOT to be hidden and showned when it is more useful to the owner.

[ElSel10]

A microscope would probably be a good place to start.


In that case the one that applied for the patent first wins.

And you see no problem with a system like this?

[570091D]

And you see no problem with a system like this?

how else can the patent office deturmine who invented the tech? the only reasonable thing for them to do is to award the patent to the first applicant. is it totally fair? maybe not, but it is straight forward, and if you did legitimately invent the tech you shouldn't have a problem getting your application in.

[Sn0wm@n]

this.

waiting until a supposedly stolen piece of tech is implemented across one or more companies product lines before filing a lawsuit is just wrong. this has the potential to kill a company and competition in the market. a time limit for filing lawsuits would go a long way in stopping this practice, and would bring some finantial stability to the tech industry.

well if that company cant create tech of its own then why the hell did they even went into market .. or even properly secure some intelectual property ????

There is. All patents become public domain in 20 years.

There's 2 sides to every story. If he did invent the technology, and some big company(ies) said "Go pound sand", he deserves the money. If he's one of the bottom-feeders of the world, that just filed a generic patent and was waiting all of this time, then he deserves to get his meals in a soup kitchen.

im glad your not a supreme court judge

Not the same stuff, not at all. Imagine you invent something: companies will be able to CHOOSE between using your stuff or not and, if they do, they will have to pay a price that fits both (that or investigating on their own). Instead, you patent something, the other part does not know and gets to the same conclusion yet you wait for 10 years until the ball is big enough that you can put as many terms as you want in the contract and they will never say no, they just can't. How the heck is that fair?

Patents are meant to defend peoples investments and to give credit where it belongs, NOT to be hidden and showned when it is more useful to the owner.

so if wd didnt think of looking at patents to find some that might affect their business before even starting a business or even midway in their life look at patents before introducing a product then its bad business .... these corporations have lots of lawyers responsible to look into the legal side of business .... its their responsability to insure something like that doesnt happen ...

[STEvil]

how else can the patent office deturmine who invented the tech? the only reasonable thing for them to do is to award the patent to the first applicant. is it totally fair? maybe not, but it is straight forward, and if you did legitimately invent the tech you shouldn't have a problem getting your application in.

Put patent on paper. Put it in a safety deposit box or something with date/time monitored/etc. Mailing it to yourself works sometimes as well.

If someone else takes your patent: you have proof you had it before them.

[Solus Corvus]

And you see no problem with a system like this?

Excuse me? I have a huge problem with the current patent system. I was commenting only on the way it is, not how I'd prefer it.

[[XC] Lead Head]

Personally, I think if a company can prove that they developed the technology themselves in house, even if it is well after the approval of a patent for a similar technology by someone else then they shouldn't have to pay royalties. Perhaps at the maximum they would have to pay royalties that are significantly lower than what they would normally be.

There are only so many different ways you can do something, and I think this Uri Cohen guy knows this. If he was really confident that this lawsuit was going to be a slam-dunk, then he would know that Seagate/WD would basically have to cover all his legal fees. I'm guessing that he knows there is a good chance he would lose, so he sold the patents to a company that could probably take the hit of losing a case like this.

The whole patent system is all kinds of screwed up anyways. Often by the time someone's patent actually gets approved, the technology is no longer even relevant. It's filled up with tons and tons of patents that are either identical to one another, or similar enough that they might as well be the same. Then you have all the guys that patent stuff that shouldn't even be patentable - like that company from a few months back that tried to sue Nintendo over the "Z" Trigger button.

[Dainas]

yeahh and the inventor banked on his own invention ... how fail is that right



of course its about making money .. buts its his invention until its proven its not ,..... so please stop with the epic fail comments .... what if it was you huh

Stop playing devils advocate for the sake of it. Even if you are technically right these kind of actions expose major flaws in the patent system. I doubt WD and Seagate stole these diagrams from the guys filing cabinet and I doubt they waited all this time for any reason but maximum impact.

[Sn0wm@n]

Stop playing devils advocate for the sake of it. Even if you are technically right these kind of actions expose major flaws in the patent system. I doubt WD and Seagate stole these diagrams from the guys filing cabinet and I doubt they waited all this time for any reason but maximum impact.

so being technically right to protect the rights of people's ideas is wrong ????


so i should say burn the man's house instead to not get flacked down ????

and they didnt need to steal it .. they just needed someone to create the same thing .... wich is the same thing ... lawyers are there to protect corporations against such lawsuit ... so why didnt the WD lawyers do something before that ????

[K404]

If the guy has been trying to get what is rightfully his since 1997, why are we just hearing about it now?

Sounds like cash cow to me.

There should be a set of Statute of Limitations on this kinda stuff, covering the different scenarios