AMD Radeon HD 6870 and HD 6850 confirmed to be launched on 22.10.2010

[zanzabar]

But naming a part that implies its an upgrade is any better? How is naming a part which at this point likely has the performance of a 5850, a 6870 not deceptive?

The 9800gt has a much lower MSRP than the 8800gt, so as long . The 6870 has the performance of a 5850 and the price of a 5850, but it's being called a 6870.

There might be new technology in the 6870, but I don't care for having 5 monitors(which is useless for gaming), but the technology itself is more about benefiting AMD than the consumer. It sounds like it about a third smaller and AMD is only lowering the price 10 dollars. I would be shocked if AMD made the 6870 fast as or faster than a 5870, because the 6970 has to justify it likely double price point somehow and being 30-40% faster is not going to cut it. The 6870 scoring sounds about right with a x7500 at 250 and a 6970 at 500+ at 12000. It just doesn't seem possible that bart xt would be 9000+ at 250 and cayman xt at 500+ at x12000.

im not saying its one way or another, im saying it should be better so wait the few days for benches.

also your not looking at the correct cards, go find a reference card or a better than reference dont compare a cut down POS. amd always puts out a good reference board but once sapphire or xfx get it they cut the prices by $30 or so and put a ty pcb out. the lowest price on newegg is $260 for a 5850 but the directCU that is the cheapest that can oc is $265/280 (on sale) but the cheapest reference or reference looking is $310. so if u are comparing $230-250 v 280-310 thats a nice cut and its a launch price so it should go down if NV brings something. ati had lost amd money for q3 so they need high margins or we wont get anything when ati is cut back

[tajoh111]

If you didn't know what GPU was going into the performance segment then your only complaint would be that the 6870 is good enough over the 5870 to justify whatever price segment it's set at, which is valid and OK. This however, is not the same as renaming GPUs from generaiton to generation.

It isn't the same practice I agree with you on that, but I think the intent of this name shifting generation is more malicious. I don't think NV really wanted anyone to upgrade from 8800gt to a 9800gt, it was more of a desperation attempt to have something to sell(I don't think anyone wants people to be unemployed because NV was stuck in a rut).

AMD just want to increase the price of their chips back to price fixing days(NV and ATI chips were both monstrously expensive) which can only happen today when one of the companies is not being competitive. NV did it with the initial pricing of the gtx 280 and the scary thing is because there is no competition, it sounds like AMD is actually going to get away with it if people accept that the price of this new generation starts at $200 and has a high end of $800 dollars.

With AMD CEO saying they will only have hundreds of thousands of cards(the cypress quarter had 2 million cards) to sell this quarter, expect price scalping to occur too. If because of price scalping and more people upgrading to 4870 to 6870 occurs than ought to happen, a starting of $250 might occur(for a 6850) and rare cards like antilles might be around 900 dollars for a while. I don't want to see this happen and this could happen because what should have been a 6750 starting at a 150 dollar asking price is now a 200 dollar 6850 which might be scaled in a low availability market.This name shifting is only fueling this fire. Its a smart business move that will make them alot of money, but we are really going to get raped I have a feeling from this generation from AMD.

I am not really disappointed in AMD for the naming shifting itself, I am more disappointed in the name shifting and the massive pricing increase associated with it, which affects everyone, and for some reason, some people love it.

[flippin_waffles]

Which massive pricing increase and naming shifting are we talking about here?

[Baron_Davis]

Dude, normal people don't buy video cards every 17 months... your argument of "protecting the consumer" is weak.


Example:
This Xmas, people are going to want to buy a $150 Graphics Card... they don't care one sh!z about the name of the card, just how good it is against all other cards in their price range.

None of them are going to look at the pedigree/genealogy of how the card got it's name... the average Joe doesn't care. Only concern is "what plays Battlefield the fastest, for the least amount" .. is all they care about.
(ie: price/performance)

Matter of fact, that logical ratio^ is all anyone cares about... unless you are a disgruntled nv fanboi.

dude you must seriously be totally socially inept.

NORMAL PPL DONT BUY OR UPGRADE VIDEOCARDS, THEY PURCHASE PC'S FROM BESTBUY/FUTURESHOP/THE SOURCE/etc.

When they see a PC with a 6870 for $1399 and one with a 5870 for $1499, they will think "GEE I GET BETTER PERF FOR LESS COOL!"

This is the same BS that Nvidia tried to pull a million times in the past.

It has nothing to do with OH DONT WORRY BRO ITS ALL ABOUT THE PRICE/PERF RATIO!!!!! It has to do with DECEIT, I REPEAT, DECEIT. It's a marketing tactic designed to fool ppl into thinking something is better than it is. Again, it's:

MARKETING BS MEANT TO DECEIVE THE GENERAL POPULATION

Maybe you'd understand how normal ppl that you're SUPPOSED to interact with on a daily basis approached computer related purchase if you left your cave.



Another thing you should get into your thick skull is that ATI and Nvidia DO NOT MAKE THEIR MONEY OFF NERDS LIKE US. THEY MAKE IT OFF MAINSTREAM COMPONENTS SOLD IN MAINSTREAM STORES OR ON MAINSTREAM SITES LIKE DELL. We are the 1% in this market, so stop making assumptions based on the hardcore segment...WE ARE THE MINORITY.

[cegras]

It isn't the same practice I agree with you on that, but I think the intent of this name shifting generation is more malicious. I don't think NV really wanted anyone to upgrade from 8800gt to a 9800gt, it was more of a desperation attempt to have something to sell(I don't think anyone wants people to be unemployed because NV was stuck in a rut).

AMD just want to increase the price of their chips back to price fixing days(NV and ATI chips were both monstrously expensive) which can only happen today when one of the companies is not being competitive. NV did it with the initial pricing of the gtx 280 and the scary thing is because there is no competition, it sounds like AMD is actually going to get away with it if people accept that the price of this new generation starts at $200 and has a high end of $800 dollars.

With AMD CEO saying they will only have hundreds of thousands of cards(the cypress quarter had 2 million cards) to sell this quarter, expect price scalping to occur too. If because of price scalping and more people upgrading to 4870 to 6870 occurs than ought to happen, a starting of $250 might occur(for a 6850) and rare cards like antilles might be around 900 dollars for a while. I don't want to see this happen and this could happen because what should have been a 6750 starting at a 150 dollar asking price is now a 200 dollar 6850 which might be scaled in a low availability market.This name shifting is only fueling this fire. Its a smart business move that will make them alot of money, but we are really going to get raped I have a feeling from this generation from AMD.

I am not really disappointed in AMD for the naming shifting itself, I am more disappointed in the name shifting and the massive pricing increase associated with it, which affects everyone, and for some reason, some people love it.

Well, I'll wait and see what retail $ is before passing judgement. Although things do look quite gloomy.

[Eagleclaw]

This ONLY holds water if the 6870 is slower than the 5870 and/or until the 6970 is released..hmm think about that.

dude you must seriously be totally socially inept.

NORMAL PPL DONT BUY OR UPGRADE VIDEOCARDS, THEY PURCHASE PC'S FROM BESTBUY/FUTURESHOP/THE SOURCE/etc.

When they see a PC with a 6870 for $1399 and one with a 5870 for $1499, they will think "GEE I GET BETTER PERF FOR LESS COOL!"

This is the same BS that Nvidia tried to pull a million times in the past.

It has nothing to do with OH DONT WORRY BRO ITS ALL ABOUT THE PRICE/PERF RATIO!!!!! It has to do with DECEIT, I REPEAT, DECEIT. It's a marketing tactic designed to fool ppl into thinking something is better than it is. Again, it's:

MARKETING BS MEANT TO DECEIVE THE GENERAL POPULATION

Maybe you'd understand how normal ppl that you're SUPPOSED to interact with on a daily basis approached computer related purchase if you left your cave.



Another thing you should get into your thick skull is that ATI and Nvidia DO NOT MAKE THEIR MONEY OFF NERDS LIKE US. THEY MAKE IT OFF MAINSTREAM COMPONENTS SOLD IN MAINSTREAM STORES OR ON MAINSTREAM SITES LIKE DELL. We are the 1% in this market, so stop making assumptions based on the hardcore segment...WE ARE THE MINORITY.

[Baron_Davis]

This ONLY holds water if the 6870 is slower than the 5870 and/or until the 6970 is released..hmm think about that.

I highly doubt it will be faster, let alone what it's SUPPOSED to be, which is twice as fast as the previous generation.

1) 3870 << 4870 << 5870 << 6870
2) 3870 << 4870 << 5870 < 6870
3) 3870 << 4870 << 5870 = 6870
4) 3870 << 4870 << 5870 > 6870

Chances are it will be 3 or 4, MAYBE 2 (notice slight increase versus the normal "twice as fast" progression that's been the norm for the past 3 generations).

If the price is really low, it will become a good budget card, but regardless, the naming scheme is total BS. Nobody is arguing the price:performance, they're arguing the NAME which has been consistent for THREE generations now. And it's not like this is ATI's magical discovery. Any good company increases the model numbers of a product lineup as they get better and more expensive.

ie. Model 10 > Model 9 > Model 8 > Model 7 etc. etc. etc.

You don't need to be a genius to realize this naming scheme is the logical NUMERICAL approach to helping a customer differentiate between the awesomeness of a product. ESPECIALLY if this company (read: ATI) has set expectations with years and years of consistent and simple to understand model naming.

[cegras]

But in reality 3870 << 4870 < 5870. The 5870 wasn't quite the leap over it's previous generation like the 4870 was.

[Baron_Davis]

But in reality 3870 << 4870 < 5870. The 5870 wasn't quite the leap over it's previous generation like the 4870 was.

Man the 5870 beasts the 4870 in more demanding games. I'll try to find some benchmarks.







Source: http://www.techspot.com/review/198-a...d-5870-review/

These are just some I found in the first review I google'd. 5870 deserves the >> in comparison to the 4870 IMO.

[jimbo75]

Man the 5870 beasts the 4870 in more demanding games. I'll try to find some benchmarks.

And yet you're basing all of your crybaby whining on a 3dmark Vantage benchmark which may or may not be true.

[overclockedamd]

I love how people throw out numbers of what card will/can do with alpha/beta drivers if its EVEN real info on the specs...or just pure hearsay and think they are speaking the gospel from the CEO's mouth. Really its getting old after this crap since the 486...exact same thing year after year for 20 years. AMD fanboys...vs Intel Fanboys. Nvidia vs ATI. over half of the time repeating false info for an idiot who made up some numbers to either slander or promote their fav company. I say we wait and see hard numbers before speculating crap no one knows.


my 2 cents

[Baron_Davis]

And yet you're basing all of your crybaby whining on a 3dmark Vantage benchmark which may or may not be true.

Actually I'm not basing it on that cause I haven't even taken a look at that yet.

I'll be sure to post though on October 22nd, when the super awesome 6870 comes out and doubles the performance of the 5870.

[jimbo75]

Actually I'm not basing it on that cause I haven't even taken a look at that yet.

I'll be sure to post though on October 22nd, when the super awesome 6870 comes out and doubles the performance of the 5870.

Do you have any benchmarks where the 3870 doubles the performance of the 2900xt?

The 5770 didn't double performance vs the 4770 either.

Come to think of it, how often is performance actually doubled from series to series? 3870 to 4870, 4870 to 5870 ok, 2900 to 3870, 4770 to 5770 not. Yet none of this crybaby bull occurred then.

[Baron_Davis]

Do you have any benchmarks where the 3870 doubles the performance of the 2900xt?

The 5770 didn't double performance vs the 4770 either.

Come to think of it, how often is performance actually doubled from series to series? 3870 to 4870, 4870 to 5870 ok, 2900 to 3870, 4770 to 5770 not. Yet none of this crybaby bull occurred then.

Lol you're goin back to the 2900xt to try and "prove" me wrong? Dude, doubling performance is the norm for next generation cards. If ATI didn't want ppl thinking the 6870 is a next gen card, they shoulda called it 5875.

[ToxAvenger]

.

Calm down, and dial back the personal insults while you're at it.

And yea, you keep talking as if the "leaked" benches and specs are set in stone, they could be completely out to lunch for all we know.

[jimbo75]

Lol you're goin back to the 2900xt to try and "prove" me wrong? Dude, doubling performance is the norm for next generation cards. If ATI didn't want ppl thinking the 6870 is a next gen card, they shoulda called it 5875.

Did the 2000 series double performance from the 1000 series?

Did the 3000 series double performance from the 2000 series?

Yes the 4000 series doubled performance from the 3000 series, and the 5000 series too from the 4000 series.

I really don't think doubling performance is the norm. It's 50-50 for recent ATI, and Nvidia is...christ I dunno. G92 shrunk to 40nm would probably blow away Fermi so I'd have to say they've gone backwards.

[zerazax]

Baron_Davis:

You are seriously just complaining now for the sake of it. Who cares if the 8 series doesn't best the previous 8 series? There's a friggin new 9 series meant to do that. So stop your crying, because that's all you're doing at this point. You'd have a point IF there was no Cayman / 6970. However, there is, and there will be Antilles as well, so the 6870 is NOT being marketed as the top end GPU, and so the only people who will be deceived at all will be those who just assume the 6870 the high end.

They're just shifting the numbers. It'll suck for buyers this generation, but people will forget all about this when the 7000 series is released and so on.

People wondered why there was no 3900 series when the RV670's were released - and AMD explained that the 3800 was appropriate for a GPU not meant to take on the high end crown. The 4800's were named thus, because most people (AMD included) thought that GT200 was going to crush it. Of course, that didn't happen.

5800's? Well, everyone probably thought Fermi was going to be on time and would murder Cypress...

However, with the 6000 series, it's clear that AMD knows what Fermi had, and that Nvidia will probably have no answer to the 6900's, so its as good a time to shift their strategy around a bit.

And finally, AMD can name it whatever the hell it wants, so long as the card naming makes sense. That is, within its own generation, the naming is consistent: 6970 > 6950 > 6870 > 6850 etc. AMD has never made any promise that the numbers make sense across different generations.. for instance, a 5400 isn't beating a 4770 despite being a 5 series card for instnace. But a 5400 is guaranteed to be worse than a 5700 for instance.

[Baron_Davis]

Did the 2000 series double performance from the 1000 series?

Did the 3000 series double performance from the 2000 series?

Yes the 4000 series doubled performance from the 3000 series, and the 5000 series too from the 4000 series.

I really don't think doubling performance is the norm. It's 50-50 for recent ATI, and Nvidia is...christ I dunno. G92 shrunk to 40nm would probably blow away Fermi so I'd have to say they've gone backwards.

Norms change with the ages. I'm not gonna hunt down benchmarks for cards that are 10 years old, but I do know that the trend NOW is for next generation cards to double performance. And Fermi vs G92 is a joke. Fermi annihilates it. The architecture is way more advanced.

Anyway, zerazax is right, this arguing is pointless. I question ATI's motives when it comes to the naming of the 6850/6870, but that's my opinion. I mentioned norms changing with the ages, well, this is a new age for ATI, and I guess they wanna start something new. Going back and forth on a forum about this is going nowhere. I'll stop here.

[cold2010]

NEW PUPPY XFX HD 6870 AND XFX HD 6850

[RPGWiZaRD]

Wow if those figures are real that Barts XT is THAT close to HD5870, I personally only always thought it would be only make sense if in best case scenario the Barts XT would be like slightly faster than HD5850 but this is more like slightly behind HD5870.

EDIT: on the other hand I didn't expect 1280 SPs either so I really hope that's correct info. Power consumption would make more sense then as well. Imagine Cayman XT with 1920 SPs if 1280 SPs can now perform close to the amount of 1600. :p

So either this site is trying to pull our leg or AMD has pulled our legs for a long time now by falsely let wrong specs float around to cause more ruckus once real specs gets leaked as a tactical marketing stunt that would be beneficial to see both how/where the stuff leaks from or to give wrong ideas to the competitor.

[damha]

Those vantage numbers look close to predictions. If we are talking 5770 price point for the 6870 .. this is going to rock everyone's socks

Back to earth now, the 6850 looks like gtx460 territory.

[Baron_Davis]

Those vantage numbers look close to predictions. If we are talking 5770 price point for the 6870 .. this is going to rock everyone's socks

Back to earth now, the 6850 looks like gtx460 territory.

That would make no business sense. Why would they release a card that has the same performance as a 5870 but is twice as cheap? There has to be a catch...unless they wanna pull off a 8800GT.

[Tha Last Meal]

alright alright alright ,alright Ladies and gentlemen alright How you are doing This evening . ok alright alright

[thatdude90210]

Looks like Barts could fill that large hole in the Radeon lineup that the 5830 couldn't.

[generics_user]

considering that the new 6870 is 100mm² smaller than the gtx 460 while destroying it in gaming performance; and 110 mm² smaller than 5870 while being on par i'd call this chip a success! i can't wait to see performance / watt on this parts!