Why not use C32 for the Zambezi desktop?

[informal]

All I want to know before I purchase my next high end system (2nd half of next year) is whether AMDs Socket AM3+ will handle more than 4 modules (8 cores)? If not, I'll see whether Intels next socket can. Whoever supports more than 8 cores is getting my money.

I would settle on 8 cores as long as they're at a decent speed of 3.5ghz or more.

Since BD cores are rather "cheap" in terms of total die area per CPU,I think that AM3+ socket will ,in time, get >8 core models on the same 32nm process node. Plus,all chances are that second iteration of Bulldozer chips,made on 22nm node,will work in AM3+ socket since all the electrical specs are in places(per module power gating,TurboCore 2 etc.) .And the 22nm version will definitely have much more than 8 cores.

As for clock speed,I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a 4Ghz 8 core Orochi next year.That's roughly 20% increase Vs Thuban on 45nm (which wasn't a high clock speed design to begin with,while BD is ).

So to sum it up,my expectation for Orochi(8 core AM3+) are: 20% higher per core performance Vs Thuban (10-35% range with 20% averaged ), 20-25% higher clock speed targets,33% more cores and 50-70% better performance Vs Thuban. Single thread performance,being a function of IPC and clocks can be as high as ~1.5x over Thuban,since we would have aggressive default clock and new Turbo,giving ~1.25x the clock effectively Vs Thuban and better per core perf.(my est. 1.2x on average),thus 1.2*1.25~=1.5x.
Multi core performance estimate : 3.3Ghz Thuban ~ 3.3*6*1=19.8 (clock * core count * relative perf. level) ; 4Ghz Orochi ~ 4*8*1.09=34.88 ( clock * core count * relative perf. level with counted scaling penalty via sharing the front end ). 34.88/19.8=1.76x ,or if the 4Ghz is a bit on the generous side for the Orochi,then with the 3.6Ghz as a def. clock we get a 1.6x throughput improvement with 33% more cores .

[Dimitriman]

All I want to know before I purchase my next high end system (2nd half of next year) is whether AMDs Socket AM3+ will handle more than 4 modules (8 cores)? If not, I'll see whether Intels next socket can. Whoever supports more than 8 cores is getting my money.

I would settle on 8 cores as long as they're at a decent speed of 3.5ghz or more.

youre unlikely to get more than 8 cores from both amd or intel until 2012. unless you buy server parts.
then comes one of my main points: how will the 4 module bulldozer compare to an 8 core extreme edition sandy bridge?
i dont intend on spending 1000$ on a cpu but many people will.

[FlanK3r]

informal, do u think, Zambezzi beat 4c/8t SB?i think yes :-) (in multithreading)

[informal]

informal, do u think, Zambezzi beat 4c/8t SB?i think yes :-) (in multithreading)

Well I did some estimations earlier and my guess is that ,on average , a 3.6-3.8Ghz Orochi 8 core will be around 10-15% slower than a 3.33Ghz 8C/16T SB-EE . I may be way off but somehow I think I roughly hit the ballpark numbers . Now when you factor in the price for both of those chips/platforms and the fact that Orochi is basically a high frequency design,you can see why Orochi may have the edge in OC/enthusiast market .

[chew*]

If i might inteject a little here.

One thing I hate about intel.........some boards cost more than cpu's.........the sockets are very fragile.....

AMD cpu's are rather resillient, chances of dying currently are alot slimmer than a board. I have cpu's here that have survived far longer than boards and through multiple boards where as the boards were not so lucky.

Might as well keep boards cheaper eh?

When AMD boards start becoming more expensive than amd cpu's one would have to wonder if the change was for the best.

Add to the fact i have seen some hetfy power draw, more so than I have seen on 1156...........which might i remind you had issues and melted sockets.....

Imagine 6 cores drawing twice the current through less pins on ln2. Not quite something I would prefer to see.

So while the package works on "stock" server parts.......at rather conservative clocks, one must wonder what happens under heavy 24/7 use at high clocks.

[pcnazz]

Very fragile Intel mb sockets are , true that !

[scorpidragon]

AMD needs to allow the MB manufacturers to make a unified motherboard; like:
You install an Opteron server CPU in the board OC disabled.
You install an Phenom FX CPU in the board OC enabled.
That way you have a board that can be used in high-end desktop and budget servers.

[Sn0wm@n]

AMD needs to allow the MB manufacturers to make a unified motherboard; like:
You install an Opteron server CPU in the board OC disabled.
You install an Phenom FX CPU in the board OC enabled.
That way you have a board that can be used in high-end desktop and budget servers.

all of that for ms word right ???

[zanzabar]

AMD needs to allow the MB manufacturers to make a unified motherboard; like:
You install an Opteron server CPU in the board OC disabled.
You install an Phenom FX CPU in the board OC enabled.
That way you have a board that can be used in high-end desktop and budget servers.

we have am2+ and am3 opterons.

[Manicdan]

AMD needs to allow the MB manufacturers to make a unified motherboard; like:
You install an Opteron server CPU in the board OC disabled.
You install an Phenom FX CPU in the board OC enabled.
That way you have a board that can be used in high-end desktop and budget servers.

then you have a new socket.
they have one for servers, low to high end
and one for client

now you want a third one thats for budget servers AND high end clients?

[hyc]

AMD needs to allow the MB manufacturers to make a unified motherboard; like:
You install an Opteron server CPU in the board OC disabled.
You install an Phenom FX CPU in the board OC enabled.
That way you have a board that can be used in high-end desktop and budget servers.

AMD doesn't dictate what boards an MB maker can make. The MB makers decide what features they want to include. Most of this discussion has been aimed at JF-AMD, but aside from the fact that he's strictly a server guy, none of this is his business to worry about. Go make your case to Asus or Gigabyte that you want a C32 MB with overclocking options in the BIOS. Prove to them that there are sufficient numbers of buyers of these boards - you can still use multiplier-locked chips in them after all, it's not like nobody knew how to overclock before FX/BE chips came out.

Right now you're putting the cart before the horse, and just blowing a lot of hot air. Convince a MB maker that you'll buy sufficient volumes of these boards for them to take the plunge. Then if those things start to sell, you can prove that an unlocked C32 chip would also sell. And if those boards fail to sell, you can just shut up and admit you were wrong all along.

[stangracin3]

all of that for ms word right ???

rofl

[btarunr]

Anyone that correlates the $1000 client CPU market with market share doesn't know much about the actual market purchases of those products. I'd be willing to bet that those processors equal less than .1% of the market.

Now, cue the "halo effect" crowd. "But if AMD had the top product in the $1000 spot they could sell so many more lower end products."

I call BS on that theory.

Let's assume that company 1 has the fastest processor in the world, it scores 6987 on the one benchmark that matters. And that system costs $5000US

And you have $1000 to spend on a system (total). You two choices are:
Company 1 system. $1000. Benchmark score of 2140 on the one application that really matters to you
Company 2 system. $950. Benchmark score of 3027 on the one applicaiton that matters

Since you have $1000 in your budget do you buy the system from the halo company that is 30% slower, or do you buy the faster system that is cheaper. Now, just for fun, run that exercise over and over. At what point does the company 1 system need to get to before you buy that one over the company 2 system.

If you are like 99.9999% of the world, the answer has something to do with the benchmark being above company 2. Probably by at least enough to compensate for the higher price.

It's called "flagship". The $999 client processor's job (like the $649 graphics card's) isn't really to add to the company's profits by much (obviously volumes are lower), but rather a huge PR weapon. This is what makes major automobile companies (such as Ford or Toyota) work on flagship models, which amount to very less on the sales, yet impact heavily on the company's image.

The Radeon HD 5970 tells lesser-informed customers that "hey, we're the company behind the fastest graphics card out there, so buy our cheaper models that are built around the same technology", just as Athlon64 FX did, back in 2005, as the then flagship of the AMD64 architecture.

Again, citing sales volumes is a lame excuse. If that was really the case, AMD wouldn't have sold the Athlon64 FX for $999, or wouldn't be selling the Radeon HD 5970.

[JF-AMD]

The corvette is the fastest american car that you can buy. Would you buy a chevy impala because of the corvette?

When I bought a car I figured out what I wanted to meet my needs and my budget; I did not look at the top of the line and choose the manufacturer that way.

[Dimitriman]

The corvette is the fastest american car that you can buy. Would you buy a chevy impala because of the corvette?

When I bought a car I figured out what I wanted to meet my needs and my budget; I did not look at the top of the line and choose the manufacturer that way.

I really dont blame you its not your duty to research the end consumer market and for the server market i think your decisions and background are spot on. enterprises dont make decisions based on who has the fastest product only.

but this discussion is about the individual and a whole different market. i wish the head of consumer marketing could share some thoughts with us as well since im sure he would learn a lot from this constant interaction with his customers. so i give props to you again for being here and sharing your knowledge with us, especially when its not even your primary target audience.

about your example, i can look at it another way. since we are speaking of individuals, most will buy the car specific for their needs only regardless of the top model. however a smaller portion with much greater wealth will be willing to spend a large sum on the top model and therefore will compare the chevy with volks and decide whicb top model is fastest and most equiped with items and confort.
just because that segment is small, doesnt mean chevy and volks will ignore it. else you wouldnt see corvettes being made at all.
and its corvettes that capture your young and inexperienced mind and causes you to dream about owning a chevy one day.

inexperienced minds look for the reference and while its not entirely applicable for vehicles, this reference to the fastest and best product works very very frequently for the microprocessor industry.

[stangracin3]

The corvette is the fastest american car that you can buy. Would you buy a chevy impala because of the corvette?

When I bought a car I figured out what I wanted to meet my needs and my budget; I did not look at the top of the line and choose the manufacturer that way.

JF-AMD you are slightly wrong here.

nascar
win on raceday = jump in sales for said brand on monday...

[btarunr]

The corvette is the fastest american car that you can buy. Would you buy a chevy impala because of the corvette?

When I bought a car I figured out what I wanted to meet my needs and my budget; I did not look at the top of the line and choose the manufacturer that way.

Bad comparison. With automobiles, top-speed isn't everything (there's luxury, terrain-capability, looks, ton of other things), whereas with processors and graphics cards (at least in the client market), performance is almost everything. That's the reason I used the term "flagship". A flagship product is created as a PR tool, never to actually make for a significant amount of sales with the product itself. It's why NVIDIA and AMD graphics do everything possible to retain performance leadership for the highest-end consumer graphics product (AMD goes to the extent of pairing two GPUs to make a product that's faster than the competition's flagship product with a single GPU).

At the core of my argument is, even if AMD doesn't have a client processor as fast as say the Core i7 980X Extreme Edition, it can offer a pair of DSDC-capable Thuban processors in the s1207 package, and roll out a new high-end PC platform (at least as a stopgap till and Zambezi), or at least come out with a client processor modeled around Magny Cours.

[Manicdan]

JF-AMD you are slightly wrong here.

nascar
win on raceday = jump in sales for said brand on monday...

i REALLY think AMD needs to buy a nascar car, that would really get their image out there for alot of fans who believe what they see on tv

The corvette is the fastest american car that you can buy. Would you buy a chevy impala because of the corvette?

When I bought a car I figured out what I wanted to meet my needs and my budget; I did not look at the top of the line and choose the manufacturer that way.

theres a very simple reason for that, YOUR SMART, most people are not. if people see what the nice cars have in features and quality, they think that rolls down to the lower end stuff too. but i think the aveo is like the ugliest and cheapest car in the world, and ive herd its sub par in like every way.

look at intel commercials, they have holographic animals walking around and somehow thats suppose to relate to their cpus? the only commercial i liked was the robot that got depressed, it was kinda cute. but seriously no core processor they make could compare to the other BS they show off, but thats their whole slogan.

i believe like many others, that AMD needs to have a chip that we all wish we could own, but cant afford. give the desktop a 16 core BD (2x4module) that can overclock, and pray your motherboard can support 400W of power (its TDP can be 125w like server parts, but if you clock both to desktop levels your already at 250W, and then with some voltage you can be sure that only LN2 will save your mosfets from turning into little candles)

[crazydiamond]

this will never end will it

[Dimitriman]

this will never end will it

its just too bad none of this discussion can be transferred through john to amd since were not his audience. we just got to appreciate hes actually taking part because for a change nobody is trolling on this thread and there are some tough arguments being thrown out there.

hey at least its a real discussion for a change and troll free so far...

[demonkevy666]

AMD doesn't dictate what boards an MB maker can make. The MB makers decide what features they want to include. Most of this discussion has been aimed at JF-AMD, but aside from the fact that he's strictly a server guy, none of this is his business to worry about. Go make your case to Asus or Gigabyte that you want a C32 MB with overclocking options in the BIOS. Prove to them that there are sufficient numbers of buyers of these boards - you can still use multiplier-locked chips in them after all, it's not like nobody knew how to overclock before FX/BE chips came out.

Right now you're putting the cart before the horse, and just blowing a lot of hot air. Convince a MB maker that you'll buy sufficient volumes of these boards for them to take the plunge. Then if those things start to sell, you can prove that an unlocked C32 chip would also sell. And if those boards fail to sell, you can just shut up and admit you were wrong all along.

I agree with... mostly

Well now we've seen the architecture diagrams and what not and so have the motherboard makers. It's better to ask EVGA if they will make a dual socket board now on socket G34, since they didn't want to Socket AM3 because of lack of experience with it. Now we're going to have Socket AM3+ it's just fueling the for more excuses for then not to come back to AMD IMO.

They can either make good on their claims about waiting for the new architecture or just admit they only work with who's on top of the benchmarks. how many high end am2+ boards came from them None really. It was a mediocre board that only supported 95 watt cpus.

[Manicdan]

its just too bad none of this discussion can be transferred through john to amd since were not his audience. we just got to appreciate hes actually taking part because for a change nobody is trolling on this thread and there are some tough arguments being thrown out there.

hey at least its a real discussion for a change and troll free so far...

agreed, we all have ideas, some suck, some great, and John has been incredibly helpful even though were not customers of the server business. but MM posts in here alot and that makes it all better.

[zanzabar]

The corvette is the fastest american car that you can buy. Would you buy a chevy impala because of the corvette?

When I bought a car I figured out what I wanted to meet my needs and my budget; I did not look at the top of the line and choose the manufacturer that way.

the cobra or roush 3 or roush custom are the fastest american cars under a $100,000 and that brings people to buy the cheaper v6 or GT mustang, or look at the prius its a POS that gets worse mileage for most people than the yaris or corrola but its got the image so if u want efficiency u go to toyota if u dont know anything about cars this is the same.. for cpus i love having an unlocked chip for $300 for the 1090 or $100 for the 720 or 555 but there needs to be something bigger like a 4ghz chip or something that has no tdp limit , like the 5870x2 or the 5970 black from his or sapphire.

[Manicdan]

i doubt they could make something with no TDP limit
for a gpu it just has more connectors that need to be plugged in. i could see a motherboard having an extra molex port and would know not to allow bootup without that being plugged in for certain chips. but then its sounding like you need 2 special parts working together.

[zanzabar]

i doubt they could make something with no TDP limit
for a gpu it just has more connectors that need to be plugged in. i could see a motherboard having an extra molex port and would know not to allow bootup without that being plugged in for certain chips. but then its sounding like you need 2 special parts working together.

the 8pin cpu lets u have like 300W over the 24bpin dosnt it, im not saying some giant tdp like 250W or something but like 160-200W like were an oced chip would go anyways then use a partner like asus or gigabyte to support it, and pair it with a real heatsink but not an expensive one like a xigmatec or something. i dont think that it could hurt anything if u left the other products as is just make it something like an fx or a triple black platform with a black cpu, black MB and black graphics card or maybe some new branding.