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Thread: The Ethics of Overclocking

  1. #26
    Banned M.Beier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sn0wm@n View Post
    LOLL the nazzi regime allready deleted a good post ... ... wtf ....
    My post; I removed it myself...

    Summed down;
    I disagree....
    Three types

    1) Ones that dishonestly state its fantastic
    2) The ones that says its not good
    3) The ones that says nothing publicly, and to the vendor says "bummer"
    Reviewers has to be no#2.... Powerusers have the choice between all three...

    1) Youre up the butt of the vendors...
    2) You are no longer in dialog with the vendor, likely.
    3) Many will consider you a traitor for not telling if something isnt good..

  2. #27
    Slayer X mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sn0wm@n View Post
    LOLL the nazzi regime allready deleted a good post ... ... wtf ....
    M.Beier is a Nazi? LOL nah!

    Quote Originally Posted by M.Beier View Post
    Like the idea of an agreement, and a bit more handy rules, especially for verification.

    Also I like your idea about new graphical std. but; That is pretty much up to FM and others to set.

    Rest of it; I disagree with.

    I dont really care about performance/watt when it comes to the super-heavy-weight class, the formula#1....
    I dont agree that playing just to win... It has to be done in a decent way, you have to be able to be proud of what you've accomplished, and I know I wont be if I did it in a hollow manner.... (However; I am not good at "the american way")
    ..
    I can totally understand that something like that is not for everyone. And quiet frankly mje even mentioning this is a bit OT. But hopefully a few people will think of something like that differently and be interested in joing on some of the XS competitions in the future that will explore new and hopfully innovative ways.
    Last edited by mike; 07-29-2010 at 02:38 PM.
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  3. #28
    Slayer X mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by massman View Post
    I think you're missing a vital point, Mike. What you're describing is why maybe 1% of the entire overclocking community is into overclocking and benchmarking, the other 99% is just there to have fun with hardware. You see, you can see that, for instance at HWBOT, most of the users submitting don't care about efficiency or highest possible clocks: they care about overclocking only, they care about producing a benchmark score that gives them points for the team.

    Why is it that a group that small has to effect the way a group this large has to deal with verification, rules and regulations? Since everything comes straight from the community (rules are not forced upon us by some untouchable instance), how come it's being made impossible to make this world different from all other sports.

    I wonder if people have already considered the idea that what meets the eye is not the whole package. Take the hardware sharing rules that are so hugely under debate: I can see many people be angry about the fact that some benchmarks are CPU limited and sharing the CPU gives an advantage. However, the true reason of the existince of the rule is:

    1) Prevent the abuse of direct influence on points system (eg: CPU sharing allowed for CPU benchmarks -> points affected directly)
    2) Make overclocking a more social experience than it was before

    Especially the latter is of great importance. Overclocking used to be sitting alone in the house and just talking over the internet or MSN, but now it's becoming more and more something that you do with your teammates. By allowing a good CPU to be shared for 3D benchmarks, we basically allow a team to work together to maximize the result. The reason why some people are pushing towards ethical and responsible behavior is of the same type:

    Make people stand up for what they do and learn that 'playing within the rules' is not an easy way to cover up what you did. To me, pointing to the rules as argument that what you did is okay, is as lame as it can get: you're blaiming an external source for YOU making a mistake.

    Also, extreme overclockers sometimes forget this, but they are the billboards of overclocking. If you see new people joining in the overclocking community, they look up to guys like K|ngp|n because these guys have been on top of the rankings (HWB or FM) since the beginning. These people, who are the faces of overclocking, must deal with the fact that they have an example role within this community and must learn to act like this. The reason why I picked K|ngp|n is because as far as I recall, he's always been fair and honest in overclocking. And he wins all the time. See, it can go hand in hand.

    People will debate rules and regulations forever, but ethics and morals are kind of a constant in the human life. And that's because they have an unwritten nature: because there's no clear definition, you can bend, twist and strech ethics to suit every situation. The odd thing is that most people agree when talking about ethics and breaking ethics in competitions; in fact, I think I have only met a couple of people who believe it's okay to do whatever you want in the competition without looking at the ethics. There have been countless examples in many competitions where people tried to win without losing sight of what's really important: honesty, respect and integrity. Again, I wonder why a small subset of people must ruin the game for the large, vast majority.

    There's of course the aspect of MFCs who want to USE the overclocking community as marketing tool. Let's not forget, however, that overclocking still is a very young sport and that every party involved (overclockers, hwb/fm, mfcs) has to learn how to work together the best. To give an example: overclockers like brands more when they do things for the community, whereas marketing people within brands think they have to break world records to be more loved. It's changing slowly, but we all have to accept that we can't just jump into an ideal state of overclocking community (if that would exist). In the end, however, the overclocking community has enough ties to the publishing industry, meaning that big mistakes by manufacturers get negative publicity that streches far beyond our little community. That gives US, overclockers, the power to make the MFCs listen to us. It's Power to the People!
    I think you make some good points Massman but I want to disagree with you at a couple levels.

    First, if I understand what you are saying, you believe that we, the community, rather than codifying a set of rules, can rely more on shaming to control abuses. Ultimately, I just disagree that this is a workable solution in the long term. I have just seen it too often in too many other circumstances. The higher the stakes, the more willing people are to cross lines that they probably wouldn't other times. And I think many of us are interested in raising the stakes.

    Second, you write:

    <blockquote>People will debate rules and regulations forever, but ethics and morals are kind of a constant in the human life. And that's because they have an unwritten nature: because there's no clear definition, you can bend, twist and strech ethics to suit every situation. The odd thing is that most people agree when talking about ethics and breaking ethics in competitions; </blockquote>

    I take it from that that you believe that there is something of a widespread consensus concerning what is ethical and what isn't. Well I am sure there is when it comes to some of the really broad issues, say deliberate sabotage or photoshopping results.
    But I am also certain that there are a lot of close questions like why is it considered dramatically castrating your graphics quality by adjusting LODs, limiting rendering of certain effects, yet it is considered unethical to take things further and use the feared MIPMAP tweak. I constantly ask myself, what makes one thing ethical and the other unethical when they both go against the spirit of overclocking. At least my own personal interpretation of the spirit of overclocking.
    For myself, I consider LOD also un-ethical, but since the ethics of the community accepts such as fair, what makes it un-ethical for me to find a way to change the LOD settings for each individual test in let's say 3DMark05. Or to use MIPMAP in a contest where things like "disable post processing" are specifically allowed?
    Not that I wanted this thread to discuss the issues of individuals, or individual entities, let me allow to respond about similar ethical questions in leagues.

    Is it ethical that the judges of a league can at the same time to be a competitors. Where are the ethics if judges were to use valuable knowledge from investigations, to further their own skills and competitve knowledge. Knowledge that some people work very hard to develop.

    In a league shall we accept un-ethical tweaks if they only give a minor gain, but make tweaks that give a huge gain a big NO NO?

    I happen to think those sorts of things are unethical but I am sure there are those who will disagree.

    Further, it seems to me that if we do largely agree on an ethic framework then it shouldn't be too difficult or disagreeable to create reasonable rules based upon just those shared ethics. I get your point about the flexibility of more ambiguous social contract but I do think that we can manage to do this sort of thing without handcuffing ourselves.

    Lastly, I think the bottom line is that there will always be a fundamental difference in participating in anything as a hobby and taking it more seriously professionally and competitively. There is, of course, nothing wrong in practicing a hobby. There is nothing wrong in having fun with hardware. But well designed rules will not harm the hobbyists and for people who are very serious about competition, good rules should enhance the experience.



    Quote Originally Posted by Leeghoofd View Post
    blah blah... I have enough brains and have evolved long enough to distance myself from the animals
    I don't think I understand your point - please try again.
    Last edited by mike; 07-29-2010 at 02:32 PM.
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  4. #29
    Xtreme Addict Sn0wm@n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M.Beier View Post
    My post; I removed it myself...
    .

    well your post wasnt bad ... so why remove it ????


    it pointed out how you felt about doing review of product ... and it touched a point i made somehow ....


    saying products are great only when they are great doesnt sound to helping to the comunity ....

    people like myself wouldnt mind hearing someone's review when a product is sub-par or is just average ....



    Quote Originally Posted by mike View Post
    M.Beier is a Nazi?

    yeahh i saw that M.beier deleted his own post ... i guess i should take mine down too LOL
    Last edited by Sn0wm@n; 07-29-2010 at 02:39 PM.
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  5. #30
    Banned M.Beier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sn0wm@n View Post
    well your post wasnt bad ... so why remove it ????


    it pointed out how you felt about doing review of product ... and it touched a point i made somehow ....


    saying products are great only when they are great doesnt sound to helping to the comunity ....

    people like myself wouldnt mind hearing someone's review when a product is sub-par or is just average ....






    yeahh i saw that M.beier deleted his own post ... i guess i should take mine down too LOL
    I have too many enemies.... Sometimes I am being too honest, and I caught myself being so.... Only difference was me stating my personal standing...
    But since someone read it....

    I think it sux lying to community about something being fantastic when it isnt... I tell the vendor if I am not satisfied, and keep my mouth shut to public... Vendors often take it into consideration and work with the input, sometimes not.... Some would call out traitor for not busting something bad.... But fact is; I along with many other powerusers help developement, so I kinda disagree... I had understanding that I could get socalled "EVT", not "DVT", but "EVT" from a few companies, and that requires mutual respect...

    DVT = Design Verification Testing
    EVT = Engineering Verification Testing...

    That means I get products before launch occationally, alot before launch.... Strictly signed papers, I see no reason for saying "man that sucks" when vendors can still improve and fix the faults....?
    This is one extreme.... If you have a product on the market, you might make more revisions.... Yet again; My opinion remains; Give a chance to improve, keep the mutual respect....

    Is that being bad to the community???? I dont know... I say; It is improving the product and remaining trust that you wont hurt the given company when you do your magic...

  6. #31
    Xtreme Addict Sn0wm@n's Avatar
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    the part where i agree with you is the part where its good to be in touch with company ... letting them know if their products lack something.. for futre revision or future products .... but telling us on a retail sample or close to retail sample on how it perform is the other part that needs to be here ... not too many people do it these days without financial motives .... wich is the bit i was reffering with my first post ...
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    Quote Originally Posted by JF-AMD View Post
    Dual proc client systems are like sex in high school. Everyone talks about it but nobody is really doing it.

  7. #32
    Xtreme Guru trans am's Avatar
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    I probably have no idea what the hell im talking about and it might not work in a live contest environment but most of us on a typical bench session will get the board prepped and insulated do the mods and get the dewar filled or get the d.ice the following day and come home and start benching. I rarely have my internet connection enabled since its just another thing to run in the bkgrd. so its ocing and taking screenshots and saving files to a folder. then after the damn board stops posting and ram is clogged with ice, cold bug, out of ln2, burned socket, out of ln2, out of beer, etc. the next day I plug the drive into a spare rig and or save to a usb key and start submitting to the bot.

    okay heres the idea. I noticed when i log into my bank from a different computer from the one i opened the account with it will ask me a bunch of personal questions I filled out when I made the original account because they see I'm logged on from a computer with a different ip address. cant the bot work the same way? there must be some easy program someone can develop that takes up minimal resources or integrate into the benching soft that can verify that each submission is coming from the right source.
    the same way the online banking one works? I think this thread is so full of a bunch of people arguing about ethics when we should be designing a solution instead. No matter what we say about ethics there are always going to be unethical people who ruin it for the honest ones. so there needs to be a major change in the way submissions are made. Until that happens. I think what happened was big wake up call for everyone else and shows us that dishonesty will NOT be tolerated. As hard a decision as it was for the admins to ban the ones involved but it shows you have some balls and won't take any crap from anyone ..no matter how popular or skilled at overclocking they are. What pisses me off the most is that these dudes are really good at overclocking and have sponsors and experience and the kids look up to them etc. They dont need to cheat. its so frickin' ridiculous and now we have threads like this one "the ethics of overclocking" what the hell is this world coming to?

    maybe there is no need for any changes.. We are all aware that cheating isnt tolerated. and they got caught didnt they? so that shows there's a way to see whos cheating.. right?

  8. #33
    Moderator LardArse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trans am View Post
    They dont need to cheat. its so frickin' ridiculous and now we have threads like this one "the ethics of overclocking" what the hell is this world coming to?
    Did you even read the posts? Mike is saying everyone's definition of fair play can be different. To him LOD is not ethical, to some it is. Who decides, who judges, whose voice is loudest? I dont see why being as precise and defining as possible isn't a good thing. All good game-makers try to do this, monopoly, risk, table-top RPGs, PC games, etc.

    I see your point about the mainstream users Mike, I also like them to see us as another group, where the HW and benchmarks are the toys and games and ends.

  9. #34
    ¿ G H Z's Avatar
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    A few years ago overclocking was a just hobby, now it's on it's way to becoming a bona fide sport. Manufacturer involvment, piles of cash flying around, organization, time & energy spent competing, it's taken off. And naturally the rules governing this 'sport' will evolve and become more comprehensive. Personally I'd like to see hwbot merge with FM. That could bring a new level of trust to the rankings while merging the best both have to offer.

  10. #35
    Xtreme Guru trans am's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LardArse View Post
    Did you even read the posts? Mike is saying everyone's definition of fair play can be different. To him LOD is not ethical, to some it is. Who decides, who judges, whose voice is loudest? I dont see why being as precise and defining as possible isn't a good thing. All good game-makers try to do this, monopoly, risk, table-top RPGs, PC games, etc.

    I see your point about the mainstream users Mike, I also like them to see us as another group, where the HW and benchmarks are the toys and games and ends.
    sorry LA, no.
    I read the thread earlier this morning at work and just jumped in here blind. so based on what mike says, I felt that way about disabling cores in cpuz or dropping 2 cores on a quad or hex core in spi or taking cpuz screens. there are so many variables. LOD is anther story altogether. I think simply stating you used LOD in the submission is a nice thing to add but most of us dont. Its easy to see cores disabled.. its right there but how can you id if lOD tweaks were used. I just assume the top 3d submissions are all using LOD tweaks. Most of us can easily tell by the hardware and clocks and the score if LOD was used or not. I think they should just make it a prerequisite of the benchmark instead of fighting it. Just tell everyone they need to use LOD tweaks and we are back in the same pool again.
    Last edited by trans am; 07-29-2010 at 05:58 PM.

  11. #36
    Moderator LardArse's Avatar
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    you think , i disagree, who wins, who judges?

  12. #37
    Admin Gautam's Avatar
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    That's easy. massman, overlord of overclocking.

  13. #38
    Xtreme Guru trans am's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LardArse View Post
    you think , i disagree, who wins, who judges?
    everyone that sees that submission is a judge.
    lets not argue over ethics. Lets think of ways to make the databases better so there arent threads like this and dudes getting banned.
    whats easier to do? fix the thousands of submitters ethics? or fixing one database that can tell right from wrong?

    I think GHZ said it by merging FM and the Bot and we can help them with our ideas to make the ultimate end all be all overclocking database of world. call it "heavensgate.org" or something named after the Heaven's Gate, an American UFO religion based in San Diego, California, founded and led by Marshall Applewhite (1931–1997) and Bonnie Nettles (1928-1985). On March 26, 1997, in a period that Comet Hale-Bopp was at its brightest, police discovered the bodies of 39 members of the group, who had committed suicide simultaneously wearing Nike trainers. Heavens gate can be the place where the highest clocks are closest to heaven. the whole theme will be overclock high and you get closer to heaven...so everyone is more motivated to overclock cause they all want to go the heaven right? I think im onto something here.
    Last edited by trans am; 07-29-2010 at 06:24 PM.

  14. #39
    Diablo 3! Who's Excited? [XC] gomeler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gautam View Post
    That's easy. massman, overlord of overclocking.
    I for one welcome our new European overlords

  15. #40
    Uber Raid King Computurd's Avatar
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    I think that the cheating scandals and the "tricks" are definitely hurting the sport in general terms. This is discouraging the entry level guys from participating at high levels.

    If you spend a bunch of time researching, working your butt off at a job, then buying the parts necessary, assembling and tweaking tweaking tweaking all for this benchmark...very satisfying to make a fast run that places high in the rankings.

    Now, after all of this you may feel a little disappointed that you didn't place that high, then one day you stumble upon the fact that people are modifying the benchmark, using different browsers, (simply renaming them), different programs for all sort of programs the benchmark calls upon, to inflate scores. The people you are competing with arent even running the benchmark anymore. they are running a modified version.

    Then there are ramdisk programs, and ways of using them and hiding the fact that they are doing so. So they copy/paste files while different subsets are being ran to mask the fact that they are using the ramdisk, while also reaping the benefits of the cheat in other tasks.
    The bad thing is this is just a short list of some of these methods used to inflate pcm05 scores. Hell this isnt even scratching the surface.

    People using illegal methods, and illegal hardware, yet submitting and getting points on the Bot.

    Along comes the FNG who says "golly gee mister, how do you score so high?" while the guys "in the know" are fully aware of what is going on. This FNG is in awe of these supreme "benchers".

    So, in the end, when people realize this is going on , in their mind it boils down to "whats the point?"

    What IS the point?

    Why even submit scores if you have to engage in cheating at various levels to even place in the running. Its not skill that is getting these results. Well yes, i guess it is skill. Skill at cheating.
    Hell, people have to join teams etc just to figure out the cheats so they can hang with the cheaters.

    Hell i only submit PCMV because there are no HWBot points involved, the very fact that there aren't points at stake in it lessens the amount of outright cheating going on. But that is fast changing, i assure you of that.

    It is pointless. It discourages the real growth of the sport. The cheating is so widespread, over so many different benchmarks, that it makes the whole endeavor pointless, and many many guys just quit playing the game once they see the truth. It is definitely bad overall for the sport, period.

    It stifles growth and creates an inner network of people who engage in the activities, until you can go and look at the submissions on the bot and just SEE the cheating is so rampant it is ridiculous.

    How to fix it? Gah, i have no idea! Just filling you in on my personal experience, and the experiences of many many people i have come across in this hobby.

    I think the "system" involved is so out of control right now that it is really unfixable at this stage. It would take an entire reinvention of the system to even begin to rein this in. I know guys on both sides of this, the newbies with no idea, and members of these 'inner circles', and there is no end in sight to this stuff.

    The situation unearthed with Andre just shows you the arrogance of these guys who are in these cliques, they are so used to playing by their own rules, and so used to not being caught, that this is nothing. just the tip o' the iceberg.

    If it has already devolved into a game of cheating anyway, why not up the ante and sell/buy/share results, hardware, cheats?
    Last edited by Computurd; 07-29-2010 at 07:05 PM.
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  16. #41
    Xtreme Guru trans am's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Computurd View Post
    I think that the cheating scandals and the "tricks" are definitely hurting the sport in general terms. This is discouraging the entry level guys from participating at high levels.\
    paul this is just how I felt about how we were benching the LSI 9260 cards. its countless hours of trying different settings and finding out what works for each bench. which os to use for each bench. if everyone used the same method it becomes plastic and the fun of being creative is lost. its like that time I asked you what stripe size/ settings worked best on the lsi card and someone replied I just have to try every configuration and keep track of your settings and see what works best.
    the tricks are noted everywhere and anyone that can read and has an internet connection can eventually find them sooner or later.


    take this example i recently did an aqua mark 3 bench on a i5 660 on ln2 @ 5.46ghz and the 5850 on stock cooler at 900/1300 no lod tweaks.
    http://hwbot.org/community/submissio...0_252840_marks


    then you see a guy with a e8500@ 5ghz and 5850@ 960/1200 and kicks my ass.
    http://hwbot.org/community/submissio...0_295466_marks

    I know I kicked his ass without tweaks but he tweaked and I didnt. I'm not going to cry about it... just need to do the same crap he did and kick his ass later then I'll get my ass kicked by someone else. we're overclocking here..
    this is what makes overclocking fun. ..it's finding the best way to kick someones ass without kicking them in the nuts and breaking the rules.
    Last edited by trans am; 07-29-2010 at 08:06 PM.

  17. #42
    Xtreme Member the_dope_chaud's Avatar
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    Remember when overclocking was about having fun?

    I feel that overclocking is where skateboarding went with the new millenium: SOLD OUT, pimped, cashed out and sucked dry for big $$$.



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  18. #43
    Moderator LardArse's Avatar
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    why keep deviating from topics at hand ,
    that one person's worldview is different from anothers' , that efforts into more and more precise rules would not be such a bad thing in view of this.

  19. #44
    Admin Gautam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leeghoofd View Post
    I have enough brains and have evolved long enough to distance myself from the animals
    Good for you. What about the rest of us apes/monsters?

    Really don't get it. What's so hard about clearly stating "no LOD" or "no mipmap"? Wanting precision in rules makes us evil, amoral, even uncivilized?

    I guess it's easier to just leave everything in the air, and then complain afterward about how "gentleman's agreements" were broken.

  20. #45
    Moderator LardArse's Avatar
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    more precise rules is not blasphemous and
    this is needed because we need to accept the fact that everyone views things differently and righteousness is a different ideal in different people's minds.

  21. #46
    Xtreme Addict cowie's Avatar
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    hey sham

    you guys hating on lod as unethical? lol dont stop there. how about no img. drives allowed. only 24/7 os's should be a rule too
    @trans am am3 does not respond well to lod tweeks your going to have to think of another reason that guy beat your score
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  22. #47
    Admin Gautam's Avatar
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    Heh, no one's hating on anything in particular, but you happened to prove his point; that everyone has their own POV on what's fair game and what isn't.

  23. #48
    Xtreme Guru trans am's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cowie View Post
    hey sham

    you guys hating on lod as unethical? lol dont stop there. how about no img. drives allowed. only 24/7 os's should be a rule too
    @trans am am3 does not respond well to lod tweeks your going to have to think of another reason that guy beat your score
    Ive had lod tweaks in AM3 in the past and it helped. did all the driver crap. what am I missing? this is a perfect example why this thread is useless. I dont know why I didnt have a better score but cowie seems to know why but wont tell me.
    so is he unethical for not telling me? or am I unethical for trying to find a way to tweak my software settings when my hardware was legitimately overclocked to a respectable level but I came up short because I left the software untouched?
    this is overclocking. Im not going to cry. I know there are tweaks. i didnt use them. my score is lower. now I need to do tweaks so I piss further. this is overclocking folks. get used to it.
    its been so long since ive really focused on 3d benches. I forgot the lod settings in rivatuner. i installed it and cant remember anything. it was so many beers ago. I think the last time i used it was on a 8800gt. I need to read up on this so I can use the tweaks so I have more points next time. I need points. everyone else has good points and they have worse overclocks than I do. so why cant I get good points too? I need some frickin' points man!!! help me get some more points! what are the good tweaks?


    seriously guys. you get the idea.
    everyone needs points!
    Last edited by trans am; 07-29-2010 at 09:08 PM.

  24. #49
    Xtreme Addict cowie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trans am View Post
    Ive had lod tweaks in AM3 in the past and it helped. did all the driver crap. what am I missing? this is a perfect example why this thread is useless. I dont know why I didnt have a better score but cowie seems to know why but wont tell me.
    so is he unethical for not telling me? or am I unethical for trying to find a way to tweak my software settings when my hardware was legitimately overclocked to a respectable level but I came up short because I left the software untouched?
    this is overclocking. Im not going to cry. I know there are tweaks. i didnt use them. my score is lower. now I need to do tweaks so I piss further. this is overclocking folks. get used to it.
    it seems like your too smart for your own good
    see this is useless for one reason..your attitude
    you need some tissue you seem to be crying

    see ya's i'm out i have to add lod to all my am3 scores its good for 30,k points more lol
    you know too much t.a thanks for the advice
    Last edited by cowie; 07-29-2010 at 09:19 PM.
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  25. #50
    Xtreme Guru trans am's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cowie View Post
    it seems like your too smart for your own good
    see this is useless for one reason..your attitude
    you need some tissue you seem to be crying
    no dude the jokes on you. I'm laughing my ass off at that last post I made because it is the epitome of competitive overclocking. we need to stop taking ourselves so seriously and rethink what were doing here.

    we're taking computer crap and trying to make it go faster than someone else's computer crap then we're pouring frickin liquid nitrogen on it to go even faster and if that wasnt enough, were hacking the software to get more points. and if that wasnt the icing on the cake we have threads complaining about the dudes getting more points cause they did the hacks and the dudes that dont know that hacks are pissed off cause their scores were lower and didnt get as many points as the other guy.
    oh darn. cmon man you're in jersey of all places. Take it from a fellow newyorker that drives. the guy in front of me on the FDR with Jersey plates cuts me off on the houston exit and now hes in front of me. so I cut him off at ave D and I'm pouring Ln2 before he does because he still has to go through rush hour traffic crosstown and go through the holland tunnel. Meanwhile my 4th ram slot closest to the cpu is frozen stiff and I need to break out the hairdryer. the jersey dude is probably at a standstill in his car at hollland tunnel by now but Im at a standstill with my motherboard. whos gonna get the points first? whos gonna get more points? the jersey guy that cut me off or me for getting home 1st so I can overclock before he does? Maybe hes using tweaks in New Jersey of all places and the guy in NY he cut off is just happy to get home safely and have a full dewar and new batteries in the thermal meter. who gives a crap?!!! they both drive like jerks.

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