Implications of the intel/dell pact

[josh1980]

You know what I find the most interesting on the Intel vs AMD in relation to Intel's alleged secret contracts with Dell? I know someone that owns a computer store. All of the computers are hand made. It's a larger mom-and-pop joint. They sell AMD and Intel computer side by side. Sometimes they have more Intels for sale than AMDs, and sometimes vice versa. They admit that each has it's advantages and disadvantages. But.. here's the kicker....

Which company's processor is in more computers that end up being returned to the store because the performance is not "up to par"? AMDs are returned almost 2 to 1 over Intels if you compare the number sold against the number returned. They sell alot more Intel computers right now,but the ratio is still about the same.

Now, I'm not going to sit here and tell you that AMD must suck twice as much as Intel, or anything like that. I just find it fascinating that AMD users bring their computers back more often than Intel.. just something to think about. I have no intention of guessing why this is so, just knowing that it is the case is quite interesting.

[cegras]

Why is that the case?

Is it the motherboard's fault? Surely not the CPUs, I've never seen a CPU related death. Are they selling both PCs with equivalent components (say, same price-tier motherboards from the same brand) or skimping out on the AMD mobos?

[richierich]

Which company's processor is in more computers that end up being returned to the store because the performance is not "up to par"? AMDs are returned almost 2 to 1 over Intels if you compare the number sold against the number returned. They sell alot more Intel computers right now,but the ratio is still about the same.

Probably because people like savantu say to them, "OMG AMD SUXORS RETURN IT RIGHT AWAY!!!"

On a more serious note, we don't know the specs that go into each system and what not. So we can't really say why the performance isn't up to par. Do you seriously think a i7-980x is 5 times faster than a 1055T? Most of the processors released in the past two years probably offer at least 70-75% of the performance of a i7-980x (less in multithreaded scenarios, of course) in most computing situations.

So what I'm trying to say is that there are many more factors involved than just saying that the ratio of AMD systems returned are 2:1.

[-Boris-]

You know what I find the most interesting on the Intel vs AMD in relation to Intel's alleged secret contracts with Dell? I know someone that owns a computer store. All of the computers are hand made. It's a larger mom-and-pop joint. They sell AMD and Intel computer side by side. Sometimes they have more Intels for sale than AMDs, and sometimes vice versa. They admit that each has it's advantages and disadvantages. But.. here's the kicker....

Which company's processor is in more computers that end up being returned to the store because the performance is not "up to par"? AMDs are returned almost 2 to 1 over Intels if you compare the number sold against the number returned. They sell alot more Intel computers right now,but the ratio is still about the same.

Now, I'm not going to sit here and tell you that AMD must suck twice as much as Intel, or anything like that. I just find it fascinating that AMD users bring their computers back more often than Intel.. just something to think about. I have no intention of guessing why this is so, just knowing that it is the case is quite interesting.

Every time I see something like this, it's someones friend who knows someone and so on. But last time I checked, there was no difference on return ration on either CPUs or Motherboards in the same price range.

One thing I noticed though. There are more AMDs in cheap systems since there are cheaper processors and motherboards to AMDs platform. And system builders tend to combine those products with cheap power supplies or using the cheapest motherboards available.

[savantu]

Probably because people like savantu say to them, "OMG AMD SUXORS RETURN IT RIGHT AWAY!!!"

Cool...I replicated in Borg style : " Resistance is futile! "

Well, unlike some smart guys like you, I stay away from recomending or berating someone for their choice. At most, I'd put some well known facts or reviews before him and he can decide for himself.
But I never tell someone : You did a bad choice.

On a more serious note, we don't know the specs that go into each system and what not. So we can't really say why the performance isn't up to par. Do you seriously think a i7-980x is 5 times faster than a 1055T? Most of the processors released in the past two years probably offer at least 70-75% of the performance of a i7-980x (less in multithreaded scenarios, of course) in most computing situations.

Do you have an inferiority complex form having a 1055T that you always bring this point about 980x vs. 1055T ?

The first thing you should learn in life is that price doesn't scare linearly with performance. From a certain point, the price increases exponentially for small increases in performance.
Yes, the 980x is 5x more expensive than 1055T while it offers anywhere from 0 to 50% more performance. Does that mean it is a bad choice ?

Let's assume you're a graphic artist working for a multimedia company. Buying the 980X vs. the 1055T offer you 10% improvement in that scenario. The extra $800 that went into the CPU will be recouped in less than a moment based solely on the productivity improvement.

This is the practical side. Let's go to the emotional one :
Having the greatest pleases one's ego and self-esteem. You know everyone would want such a thing, they all envy the guy who has it.

Of course, you could OC a lower CPU to that level or buy something close to the performance at a quarter of the price, but deep inside, everyone wants the uber thing. You can reach Porsche or Ferrari performance with a Corvette or Mustang. But if you had the possibility of buying any of those without asking the price, which one would you choose ? It is human nature.
This simple things makes the owner "feel good" even if it keeps it as stock.

So what I'm trying to say is that there are many more factors involved than just saying that the ratio of AMD systems returned are 2:1.

Nah, you're just trying to self-assure yourself of the choices you made. But if you are such price-conscious, maybe you should change your nickname.

[cegras]

This is the practical side. Let's go to the emotional one :
Having the greatest pleases one's ego and self-esteem. You know everyone would want such a thing, they all envy the guy who has it.

Of course, you could OC a lower CPU to that level or buy something close to the performance at a quarter of the price, but deep inside, everyone wants the uber thing. You can reach Porsche or Ferrari performance with a Corvette or Mustang. But if you had the possibility of buying any of those without asking the price, which one would you choose ? It is human nature.
This simple things makes the owner "feel good" even if it keeps it as stock.


Nah, you're just trying to self-assure yourself of the choices you made. But if you are such price-conscious, maybe you should change your nickname.

No. Only people with self-esteem issues would make themselves feel better .. by buying a better chip. Thanks for echoing the new-toy syndrome and the intricate linking of people's mental state to products that is rampant across the world, also known as consumerism. Your argument is the reason why people will line up to buy the iPhone even with debts on their credit cards. It is NOT human nature.

> People think having materials will make them happy!
> People get materials
> Why aren't they happy?!

Considering what one would buy without factoring in price is a logical fallacy and cannot be used to illustrate an example in any way. What kind if asinine argument is this? Even if one could get anything they want, they might not even want a 980X or a 5970; there are thermals and noise considerations to deal with - there is a huge community over at SPCR that buy things based upon price/perf/acoustics, and not just price/perf. If you offered me the choice of any car I want, I would rather get a comfortable German midrange car instead of some esoteric Ferrari or the ilk. Past a certain feature point there is simply nothing more I would want. Likewise, if I had an unlimited budget for a computer I would deck it out with mid-high range in a mATX form factor, and I wouldn't build a monster like Maximum PC does. I am interested in a compact, quiet, and powerful computer, and the intersection of these criteria does not always end up in the 'uber' range. Even if you offered me 20 monitors for free, where would I put them?

Enough with the pathetic armchair philosophy.

Are you just simply running out of things to argue about?

Requesting a lock: savantu has degenerated into tangential arguments and is also engaging in subtle insulting as seen above.

[savantu]

No. Only people with self-esteem issues would make themselves feel better .. by buying a better chip. Thanks for echoing the consumerism, new-toy syndrome, and the intricate linking of people's mental state to products that is rampant across the world. Your argument is the reason why people will line up to buy the iPhone even with debts on their credit cards. It is NOT human nature.

We're living in a consumerist society. It is a fact. It is the new human nature, whether we like it or not.

> People think having materials will make them happy!
> People get materials
> Why aren't they happy?!

Considering what one would buy without factoring in price is a logical fallacy and cannot be used to illustrate an example in any way. What kind if asinine argument is this? Even if one could get anything they want, they might not even want a 980X or a 5970; there are thermals and noise considerations to deal with - there is a huge community over at SPCR that buy things based upon price/perf/acoustics, and not just price/perf. If you offered me the choice of any car I want, I would rather get a comfortable German midrange car instead of some esoteric Ferrari or the ilk. Past a certain feature point there is simply nothing more I would want. Likewise, if I had an unlimited budget for a computer I would deck it out with mid-high range in a mATX form factor, and I wouldn't build a monster like Maximum PC does. I am interested in a compact, quiet, and powerful computer, and the intersection of these criteria does not always end up in the 'uber' range. Even if you offered me 20 monitors for free, where would I put them?

The point was people want to be different. Nowadays, you are different by what you buy however sadly and degenerate that is. Bigger, better, faster, more expensive are things which resonate.
In the CPU world, the Extreme Editions are the expression of that. The simply fact they are produced and marketed shows that people desire such things. Nobody talks about a I5 530. OC records are done with 980X.

Enough with the pathetic armchair philosophy.

Are you just simply running out of things to argue about?

I'm not arguing about anything, simply stating a different POV on things and unlike you I don't try to impose my POV on others. I am a fan of the counter-culture, counter-current, whatever..

Requesting a lock: savantu has degenerated into tangential arguments and is also engaging in subtle insulting as seen above.

Ok, Mr. Politically Correct, since when is an irony an insult ? Anyway, be it your way, you're way to agressive to have a normal discussion.

[Manicdan]

when i worked at CompUSA, i think maybe 1 person a month returned a PC, and honestly i dont remember ANY of them actually being a desktop (i know this cause we had special rules for where to put the expensive stuff, and i never remember any big boxes, just laptop boxes)

would really be interesting in knowing why people returned them, most common returns were for components cause people suck at installing drivers (ati can be blamed for this if someone feels the need to bash on ati/amd, lol)

[keithlm]

Well, unlike some smart guys like you, I stay away from recommending or berating someone for their choice. At most, I'd put some well known facts or reviews before him and he can decide for himself.
But I never tell someone : You did a bad choice.

You are technically correct: putting hand picked "facts" and cherry picked "reviews" before someone is not exactly the same thing as telling them they made a bad choice or berating them. You are merely indirectly doing those things.

[cegras]

We're living in a consumerist society. It is a fact. It is the new human nature, whether we like it or not.

Are you familiar with the concept 'proof by example'? I have shown that your sweeping generalization is invalid, as pervasive as you want consumerism to be. Not everyone will take the 'uber thing' just because they are offered it.

The point was people want to be different. Nowadays, you are different by what you buy however sadly and degenerate that is. Bigger, better, faster, more expensive are things which resonate.
In the CPU world, the Extreme Editions are the expression of that. The simply fact they are produced and marketed shows that people desire such things. Nobody talks about a I5 530. OC records are done with 980X.

I'm pretty sure normal social circles do not construct pecking orders out of material possessions.

Furthermore, OC records have to be done on chips that are the best (otherwise ... you wouldn't get records?), but there are far more people interested in mild overclocks on midrange processors. I'm not sure where you are going with this, and I sense another tangent coming on. I don't desire extreme edition chips as there is no point in me having one, I don't overclock for world records. Of the maybe 100 people who do in the world, I suppose they desire such chips. And others who got fooled into wanting it by the marketing portraying it as something more than it really is.

I'm not arguing about anything, simply stating a different POV on things and unlike you I don't try to impose my POV on others. I am a fan of the counter-culture, counter-current, whatever..

You're making sweeping generalizations and you claim you aren't forcing a POV on people?

My aggressiveness stems from your attempt to convince people of your broad, sweeping generalizations as well as logical fallacies.

[savantu]

Are you familiar with the concept 'proof by example'? I have shown that your sweeping generalization is invalid, as pervasive as you want consumerism to be. Not everyone will take the 'uber thing' just because they are offered it.

You want me to prove you we live in a consumerist society ? Where have you been in the past 50 years ? Ridiculous.

I'm pretty sure normal social circles do not construct pecking orders out of material possessions.

What's normal these days ? You are what you buy. If people were as rational as you say, there would be no need for credit cards.

Furthermore, OC records have to be done on chips that are the best (otherwise ... you wouldn't get records?), but there are far more people interested in mild overclocks on midrange processors.
I'm not sure where you are going with this, and I sense another tangent coming on.

I was pointing out that in the OC world, Extreme Edition chips are very sought after, reinforcing my original point about the emotional attractiveness.
Can you be a little less suspicious about my intentions ? We're not having a war here.

I don't desire extreme edition chips as there is no point in me having one, I don't overclock for world records. Of the maybe 100 people who do in the world, I suppose they desire such chips. And others who got fooled into wanting it by the marketing portraying it as something more than it really is.

You attack me for making generalizations, but you do exactly the same. You assume people do not desire such chips based on what? The fact that you don't desire one ? I really doubt that.
I don't need it either, but sure as hell I would like to have one.

You're making sweeping generalizations and you claim you aren't forcing a POV on people?

My sweeping generalizations :
-we live in a consumerist society where buying and owning things represents how you are perceived
-people desire the ultimate in everything

Hmm.. I'd think those are axioms, not generalizations.
And I would bet $0,02 that we will have a hoard of posters bragging that's not true and howthey like Amish life-style.

My aggressiveness stems from your attempt to convince people of your broad, sweeping generalizations as well as logical fallacies.

I think the same about you, but without the aggressive part. It's a start anyway.

[Manicdan]

what percent of our society feels they have to show off their earnings? 10%, 60%? just the people who have no moral values and feel money is the only important thing?

[josh1980]

Every time I see something like this, it's someones friend who knows someone and so on. But last time I checked, there was no difference on return ration on either CPUs or Motherboards in the same price range.

One thing I noticed though. There are more AMDs in cheap systems since there are cheaper processors and motherboards to AMDs platform. And system builders tend to combine those products with cheap power supplies or using the cheapest motherboards available.

You are exactly right. And with cheap components typically comes lower reliability. That's precisely why I don't "blame" AMD for the odd return rate. They often provide a cost effective alternative to Intel. For people wanting to save a dollar and don't know about quality, that $300 PC with an AMD processor might perform the same as a $500 Intel based PC, but the AMD computer might not make it through it's warranty period. That's why I hate generalizing to the extent of blaming one company. Until Intel(or AMD) makes every component in the computer, I will not hold them liable. They're just the big name that gets blamed when something goes wrong.

[josh1980]

what percent of our society feels they have to show off their earnings? 10%, 60%? just the people who have no moral values and feel money is the only important thing?

I make over $100,000 a year.

There.. I said it.

I now have no moral values and money is the only important thing in my life.

Who else wants to flaunt what they got as a joke

PS - My mom has breast cancer and I'm sending her money, so yes I do share with those less fortunate.

[Manicdan]

You are exactly right. And with cheap components typically comes lower reliability. That's precisely why I don't "blame" AMD for the odd return rate. They often provide a cost effective alternative to Intel. For people wanting to save a dollar and don't know about quality, that $300 PC with an AMD processor might perform the same as a $500 Intel based PC, but the AMD computer might not make it through it's warranty period. That's why I hate generalizing to the extent of blaming one company. Until Intel(or AMD) makes every component in the computer, I will not hold them liable. They're just the big name that gets blamed when something goes wrong.

i honestly dont understand this quality thing, is the aluminum of a better grade in intel oem heatsinks? does gigabyte make better motherboards for one brand over the other? does a 300W psu somehow fail on a 200W system cause of the brand name on the front?

unless we know the reason for the returns, there is nothing useful to be said

[cegras]

You want me to prove you we live in a consumerist society ? Where have you been in the past 50 years ? Ridiculous.

What's normal these days ? You are what you buy. If people were as rational as you say, there would be no need for credit cards.

There are a significant portion of educated people who do not subscribe to these principles.

Furthermore, 'you are what you buy' mostly applies to things like fashion .. for those who subscribe to it (admittedly a large portion). Certainly not for CPUs.

I was pointing out that in the OC world, Extreme Edition chips are very sought after, reinforcing my original point about the emotional attractiveness.
Can you be a little less suspicious about my intentions ? We're not having a war here.

This still doesn't make sense. The act of breaking the record is what people go after, not the chip. How do you explain people lusting after ES chips that aren't even meant to be sold? Why are you trying to apply sweeping generalizations about consumerism to the one place where they don't apply? No one will judge you based upon what CPU/GPU you buy, unlike your clothing or to a lesser extend electronic gadgets. Are you starting to see why your whole comparison is bad?

You attack me for making generalizations, but you do exactly the same. You assume people do not desire such chips based on what? The fact that you don't desire one ? I really doubt that.
I don't need it either, but sure as hell I would like to have one.

I'm not making a generalization. I am pointing out that there is a significant fraction of people who have risen above materialism and having to define themselves through material wealth. I have done this to show that your generalization is not really a generalization.

You can doubt that I don't want 'uber' chips, but I assure you it's true. I simply have no use for it.

My sweeping generalizations :
-we live in a consumerist society where buying and owning things represents how you are perceived
-people desire the ultimate in everything

What is the 'ultimate' in everything? The definition of 'ultimate' is different for everyone, and this is where you make the first erroneous logical step.

See, the difference between you and me is that possibly with the exception of when I was young and childish, I did not jump to one company's defense with a diatribe every time something bad was said about them. Nor did I try to engage in spinning a negative situation into a neutral or positive one. Nor have I been banned as a result of those actions.

In fact, it's sort of ironic that you seem to be the only here that is defining themselves through allegiance to a particular brand. You are truly the epitome of consumerism.

[cegras]

I make over $100,000 a year.

There.. I said it.

I now have no moral values and money is the only important thing in my life.

Who else wants to flaunt what they got as a joke

PS - My mom has breast cancer and I'm sending her money, so yes I do share with those less fortunate.

I think he was referring more to people buying things to define themselves, thus indirectly showing off their wealth (since materialism is a reflection of ... the materials you have access to).

[richierich]

lol savantu how can you compare cars with computer processors? hahahahaha ok I'm done posting in this topic since you've gone way off course.

[Sn0wm@n]

this thread is full of lulz

[Serra]

I think things here have about run their course.

/thread