Aggressive suggestions for competitions

[Leeghoofd]

Monstru for president !!! Very good sum up of my thoughts there...

Currently if you want to score high with 05/06, Vantage and AM3, a GT is a necessity... If Marc wants to pull his everybody has got to get his own hardware it will be sort of game over for me... no 5870/GTX480 here, just older cards, but good points for value (If I'm lucky :p)

I just compete with what I got and if I can help a team mate with my board or rams, I will happy to do so...

Let's keep it fun and return back to the roots of Overclocking...

Major problem have been the special cherry samples. And it will be up to the manufacturers to stop making a fool of themselves... Especially the Gigabyte compos left a bad taste in my mouth... Is it just to show what their hardware can do ? Just showing off, but your retail hardware probably can't even get close to it... Why win your own competitions ? From my point of view : not a good marketing strategy. However the masses aren't aware of the what, the how and why... If we can stop this marketing creating a hype behaviour, we could be well on track...

[M.Beier]

I agree on that we should have some new rules on the big comps.
But marc the thing i cant understand is wy it is you bringing it up because for the danish Moa comp. you lent yuor gigabyte HD5870 to Oliver and David AkA Odoc for the aquamark bench because they dident have one them selve and as far as i now that isent alowed is it??
But yeah we should have som stricter rules for the big comps.

I dont believe that I was given credits for that in public, due to frustration from not winning, but correct, I lend memory and graphics for their participation in MOA - in addition it was an ES. I did not enter that competition myself, due exams, nor would it have violated the given rules if I had entered, but besides that, I have an ES processor, so couldnt really enter even if the exams wouldnt have been a concern.

I do not think one processor, or graphics for that matter, should be allowed for more then one entry. (I agree with Mr.Dmitri // NeoForce)

[Monstru]

The issue with money...well....sorry but that is the world we live in & have created for ourselves. If life was fair we'd all be brain surgeon rock stars. The world is definetly not some Utopian society....some make or have more than others. If you aren't happy with it, MOVE, change your life, job, etc. Get off your behind and go to school, take a course...whatever. If I can do it, well...anybody can.

There are people on this forum who have spent a ton of money on equipment & don't even compete. I've personally been accumulating gear for 2+ years now & am almost in a position to put down some scores, but the search for good chips still goes on...and always will.

I think you are missing an important thing here. We are making the rules, we can try to make it fair for everybody.

Anyone involved in competitions and in HWbot has invested a great deal of money in all this, including myself. It's not only about the hardware, but also about the high-precision themometers, volt-meters, pots, dewars, all the tools needed for the job. I do not have a problem with that, but as long as it is up to us to make it fair, why give more advantage to very wealthy persons in the first place? Maybe this little hobby we have can be more sporty then other hobbies.

[Expat GriZ]

I understand your position & argument Monstru...but how do you propose to do this?? The rules are pretty much in place, and hats off to HWBOT....here's a bunch of guys willing to do a thankless, time consuming job for free. I believe PJ is now on some kind of retainer, but I don't think he is getting rich. If you deem it necessary to limit it to "only the gear you personally have purchased" fine, I've got no problem with this as I've bought everything I have myself. Not all people have this option, as the latest toys for our hobby are very expensive. So, now back to team sharing.....where do you draw the line?? To have the best scores you pretty much have to have it all these days, cpu, mem, board & gpu(s). Sharing any of these components really effects your outcome. How about the argument....reviewers using sample boards, cpus, etc. to bench and submit with?? I've had plenty of discussions with guys who frown upon this as "why does he get it for free when I have to buy it?? There is also the point of people who work in the industry and purchase nothing, yet are ranked very high. Do you ban them as well?

Yes, a Volkswagon beetle does get you from point A to B just like a Ferrari, but when you have an open class, world wide platform its pretty hard to please everyone. I'm all for some unified strategy to make a level playing field...but those with resources, cash, etc. will always have an advantage.

[packetNZ]

I think WE( you people that compete) need to stand together as one voice and make that statement.

best post i have read all year

[Riska]

Yes ecatly Marc and that is cheating you arent allowed to use a borrowed gfx for 3d bench thats hardware sharring even if it is not out in public!
Thats the same as cheating read the rules on Hwbot Marc. before you try to lern us about them.. but yes we should have a better rule set

[M.Beier]

Yes exactly Marc and that is cheating you arent allowed to use a borrowed gfx for 3d bench thats hardware sharring even if it is not out in public!
Thats the same as cheating read the rules on Hwbot Marc. before you try to teach us about them.. but yes we should have a better rule set

I am not teaching nor preaching about the rules on hwbot, I've started a debate a discussion about how to improve rules for competitions in generel.

Summed down; If you think I, or others have cheated on hwbot, use the report button. I dont even bother lowering myself by answering your accusation, However beware; If you dont let go and try to ruin this thread, I will have you removed.

*HWBot has a very potent crew that can handle reports very effeciently.

[pepinorang]

Hi guys,

I've payd high attention to that thread and read it all; I really wanted to add my two cents but no needs since Monstru and Massman made my point enough !

I couldn't say better : 200% agree with ALL your posts guys (especially posts #28 and #89 ), nothing to add !

Bye
p€p|n0r@ng

[Brian@ASUS]

from what ive been reading, i think who ever decides to setup a competition needs to define their own rule book. i for one have started my own rule book for ROG oc competitions. laying out my definitions of scenarios and what is considererd world records, global records, hardware specific world records, or hardware records, cup records etc etc. how much ln2 can be used what kind of cooling can be used how many cpu or gpu can be used, what series of gpu can be used, what type of gpu or cpu or chipset can be used etc etc. i have just added whether ES cpu can be used or not. i think i will also add in the option of shared hardware for the next event.

because no one is going to come to agreement. everyone has their own views and direction on how the tournament should be run. i think based on the decisions they make, you guys will like or dislike their competitions and choose to enter or not.

otherwise i see this as an endless debate and without hard set rules, people will continue to debate.

[massman]

The problem:

everyone has their own views and direction on how the tournament should be run.

The topic of discussion:

otherwise i see this as an endless debate and without hard set rules, people will continue to debate.

And it's circular.

People ALWAYS complain about rules and how things should go, not matter how hard your rules are set. The debate will continue even if YOU say the debate is closed. Even if you say the debate has no effect or relevance, people will still argue and say how competitions should be run.

The only thing you can say is: here are the rules. If you like them - join. If you don't like them - don't join.

[Bobsama]

The problem:



The topic of discussion:



And it's circular.

People ALWAYS complain about rules and how things should go, not matter how hard your rules are set. The debate will continue even if YOU say the debate is closed. Even if you say the debate has no effect or relevance, people will still argue and say how competitions should be run.

The only thing you can say is: here are the rules. If you like them - join. If you don't like them - don't join.

Perhaps there should be multiple tiers of competition. That'd keep it fairest for everyone. Perhaps entry-level would be best overclocking at $xxx and would be limited to air or something. Next step up would have more expensive systems and intro extreme cooling. Final tier (ie: live competitions) would be an unlimited, with everyone playing with EE/BE CPU's and running CFX/SLI.

[massman]

Perhaps there should be multiple tiers of competition. That'd keep it fairest for everyone. Perhaps entry-level would be best overclocking at $xxx and would be limited to air or something. Next step up would have more expensive systems and intro extreme cooling. Final tier (ie: live competitions) would be an unlimited, with everyone playing with EE/BE CPU's and running CFX/SLI.

Okay. Who decides where one should go?

It also doesn't take away the issue of the rules, which is what this topic is about. Some people will say that we must set rules to determine who goes in what category, others will suggest to leave that open to the choice of the individual. Eventually, someone will be in a category, but because of circumstances dominates that category and the others in that category will be mad and ask for different rules.

[thebanik]

Those in favor of sharing like leeghoofd for lack of resources, u r still lucky to be able to share stuff with ur teammates, but there are then people like us in the 3rd world(if I may say so) dont even have that option, coz no1 buyz a 980X, GTX480 and stuff like that anyways, no way of selling them out(if u r mad enuf to buy them) as well for the same reason. RMA for a chip like 980X takes almost a in month coz of no stock in Intel. From that perspective then how is it fair for us to compete against people who only have to buy a 670 and a P55 board, teammates buy a 980X and a classified and that covers them for all benchmarks..........Point is a single rule cannot be fair for every1 but still we have to find a middle ground maybe?

[uncle fester]

what about samples from msi(manufacturer/vendor)....hazzan is competing @ msi contest using samples from msi

oh look at what brian@asus says about this sponsored guys...

way to go asus



i know some won't be using samples..which is fanstastic..anyways...just chiming in ....lets compete

As far as hazzan is concerned as far as i know thats the only way he could get board was a sample you couldnt buy them.

That is still the case here in Australia Xpower is still not for sale here no vendors have them, The only way i got one to enter LOC was through MSI to send me a sample and i only got it 1 week before end of comp so only having 2 days to bench on weekend for a comp, i could not even get one for the hwbot comp.

And how would you police this lets say ASUS Australia send me one for media review then 3 months later there is comp on this board am i not allowed to enter or do i have run out and buy one ??? In a way i have paid for it i have to do a review and showcase the product at the local LAN comps and i get paid nothing just the product so my time is worth nothing ???

I think people have a misconception on what goes into the work behind the scenes when you recieve hardware from a manufacturer its not just here have this have fun people have to work hard.

[Sn0wm@n]

And how on earth are you gonna control that ? take a picture of the batch ? it's almost mission impossbile... Bill you are helping ya team, which is still a different thing as Dimitri specified it you compete in a big tournamement.. I have zero probs with sharing CPU's in the same team for 3D actions

well thats cheating of sort ... if you were to sell that cpu to your mate and then they sell it to the next mate i wouldnt mind with such pratices ... but lending it for a week end is way over the gray area .....

[uncle fester]

You will eventually have to realize that life is just not fair. Attempting to force life to appear to be fair will only stifle us. LN2 costs also aren't the problem here.. let's tally up the MSI 2010 LOC rig costs.

CPU: 980x - $1000
MB: MSI XPower - $300
RAM: 2000C7 3x2GB $300
GPU: 3x HD5870 $1200
PSU: 1.2kW PSU $250
HDD: random hdd $50
Cooling: CPU pot $200

I think that is a safe representation of what was used for the top scores. Total cost of this rig is $3300 USD without tax/shipping on the parts. 180L of LN2 at least in the US should be under $200 USD if not under $100 USD with a corporate account at a proper supplier. In the end your cooling costs are under 10% of the cost of the rig. I know some people pay through the nose for LN2 like the Swedish/Finnish guys but for the most part LN2 can be bought for under $1/liter if you shop around and buy in bulk.

The guy who went behind on a bill in order to participate in his hobby isn't being responsible or realistic. As much as I would like to fund and race a Le Mans GT series car I know it is outside of my income range and therefore I have settled with autocrossing my daily driver from time to time.

Yes i fully agree here was my LOC costs

let's tally up the MSI 2010 LOC rig costs.

CPU: 980x - $1400
MB: MSI XPower - Free supplied by MSI
RAM: 2000C7 3x2GB $360
GPU: 3x GTX 480 $1980
PSU: 1.2kW PSU $350
HDD: random hdd $70
Cooling: CPU pot $250

35ltr LN2 at $4.50 a litre $157.00

These prices are in Australian dollars
All that money and i still didnt qualify due to multi card ati rapes nvidia my own fault.

My costs $4567.00 Au dollars

But i shouldnt be able to compete because msi sent me a board ???? even tho they were not available in my country for purchase ??

[Splave]

I think what they are saying fest is that some people are spending that + the board is all, I think its okay aslong as its a retail sample. IDK I have an asus board that is retail that I won at a contest should I not be able to use that where does it stop ya know?

about the overclocking tiers, by n00b and watercooling limit. You cant validate cooling there for that idea is bunk.

[uncle fester]

yes mine is retail and if i coulda brought one i would have then atleast i would have had some time to test and not just 1 weekend for the comp, they still arnt available for sale here The cost of the board looks like lunch money after buying 3 x gtx 480

[Brian@ASUS]

This is how in my opinion view rules will be used for asus comps. i will look at all the suggestions based on what you guys post and see what i like and don't like, what i feel makes sense and doesn't make sense, what will piss people off and not. i cant please everyone but i can use what i need to get MY job done properly with the resources that i have to work with. as said before if you don't like the rules, don't join. i also don't like the idea of limited hardware which is why i opened our comp up to anyone. yes some platforms will have an advantage but the point is, i tried to open it up to as many people as possible.

as for hard set rules, from my end im trying to make the events more interesting. no event will ever be 100% alike. i will always come up with new rules and new unique ways to strategize. what i have in store for blizzcon some of you may love and many of you may hate, but it is what it is, and making it a team sport, very challenging, and fun is my goal. the people at 3x3 can definitely tell you the entire event was very stressful and tiring, but also very intense and fun.

as for some of the rules of trading, selling etc etc. personally i feel if you have won a product, it is yours, you won it fair and square and we did not sample any modded hardware towards the next contest.

if we have sampled you a product for review, whether its for forums or a media site, this is what they do for a living, we sample stuff, they write about it, they can decide to keep it for sell it for profit. that is our way of saying thank you and i guess paying you... thus in NA region we never sample modded hardware.

during competition, I will never give or sample hardware to be used specific to the event. that is considered cheating because while others worked hard to do a review or worked to purchase a board, its unfair to give users a free board just so they can qualify for the finals. that s just plain stupid. whoever earned to be #1 gets to go and may or will continue to work with asus on future projects. and that does not mean we have a million boards to give out for reviews, that is obviously handle by a different team and their own reasoning so DONT ask me for free .

hope that differentiates hard earned products/money and sampling hardware or modded hardware to compete in an event.

[uncle fester]

Great response Brian

[Hondacity]

thanks brian@asus

i bought a cpu and mobo for asus online qualifier...cost me 500$ with expedited shipping hopefully i can beat my own record... if some reviewer with sample hardwares wins i'm screwed..but with your competition rules im sorta protected.

big hooraa to asus!

[uncle fester]

Honda just because the guy that has a sample doesnt make him anymore less or more deserved of the win than you, Asus DO NOT give out cpu's and if some reviewer has a motherboard they were given for a review they worked hard for it m8. Do you know how much work and testing goes into reviews ??? You provide feedback to manufacturer with any issues, you test multiple bios's, you literally spend over 8 hours just doing the research let alone writing up the article. Mostly you get paid sweet all for it and the board is generally the only payment you recieve.

Nothing personal dude i just want you to understand that its not just " Free "

[Hondacity]

dude asus(northamerica) have that as a rule..and its great. i don't care about cpu...i'm talking about mobo sample.

fyi..some already have rampage 3 gene samples.

[uncle fester]

I am sure they have r3g samples and r3e samples and Brian has not stated they cannot enter, he has stated he will not give out hardware for the sole purpose of entering this competition, prior to this competition boards would have been given out for differant purposes and the boards were payment for doing a job. Asus has and will never give out modded samples that give an unfair advantage.

quote Brian :
"if we have sampled you a product for review, whether its for forums or a media site, this is what they do for a living, we sample stuff, they write about it, they can decide to keep it for sell it for profit. that is our way of saying thank you and i guess paying you... thus in NA region we never sample modded hardware.

during competition, I will never give or sample hardware to be used specific to the event. that is considered cheating because while others worked hard to do a review or worked to purchase a board, its unfair to give users a free board just so they can qualify for the finals."

It just feels like your saying because you paid for your board you have more right to win, they have paid for the board aswell unless you think their time and feedback into making the product better for you is worth nothing ????

[massman]

spend over 8 hours just doing the research

If it only were 8 hours ... some boards have received close to 100h of my undivided attention. And I'm sure there are a lot more others out there in the same situation. Doing all this for nothing but the board; in fact, some manufacturers even dare to ask the board back afterwards .

Free hardly ever is free.