Aggressive suggestions for competitions

[Hondacity]

I have a Frys and 2 MicroCenters between my home and my job. How exactly are your rules going to prevent me from doing this? I bet I could provide you receipts for an entire quad-GTX480 build with minimal effort. Would I feel dirty after doing it? For sure. My point here is that requiring receipts will only hurt the honest folk. What's that saying.. "locks only keep the honest people out". I feel that applies here.

you feel dirty if you cheat? thats why if you do cheat then you do feel dirty.

if you're honest, then you're honest.

[Brian@ASUS]

i didnt mean it as a joke. i am dead serious. i see all the drama going on and i get complaints about the drama all the time. like i said before i am here to help change how this industry does things. and i will not play on the same level or associate myself on the same level as my competitors. i know exactly where i stand, what i do, and what i need to do to get there. i also know exactly who gets sampled what in the USA and canada regions. we document serial numbers and the whole 9 yards. if an issue were to ever rise, i will check our batch of samples. plus people we sample to already know not to use those boards to compete, they have their purchased boards that are to be used.

if and when we go global yes it may be a bit harder to control but i will still do my best to make sure like that doesnt happen. which is why i want to perfect my rules before going global incase someone wants to screw things up.

Honestly, I think Brian ment it as a joke.... Imagine this; for something like LOC, no one at a company got a full knowledge on exactly WHO has received products.... So basicly; its a cute dream, but wont happen.

Besides I dont see the problem in vendors supplying a specific product, let me refrase that; for P55 challenge by Gigabyte in Hamburg, no#1 and no#2 in DK for the qualifier, used atleast one motherboard for their entry that was a press sample.... I dont really see the problem? Its ANOTHER matter if using a super processor screened by master cookie himself.

I can assure you that MSI, GIGABYTE, ASUS HQ in Taiwan has no clue on who from USA or Europe that has a motherboard supplied by their company.

[[XC] gomeler]

you feel dirty if you cheat? thats why if you do cheat then you do feel dirty.

if you're honest, then you're honest.

Right. Wait. What? Ahh, I see what you did there. You reworded what I said in simpler terms

[Brian@ASUS]

this is just like any sport, youll see athletes taking enhancements to hit more home runs its inevitable. but with the bad press they get out of it, im surprised people in the community that cheat and get hated on dont feel bad about. there will always be a loop hole in something. food for thought, why not go after the companies that help users cheat? they are the ones giving out modded hardware... why not do a 30 day ban or 3 month ban from the community if they decide to get involved with cheating? along with competitor rules, there also need to be internal rules. some sort of ethics need to be involved. that is a true test of a manufactures quality. i stand by my products stock. theyll perform out of the box.

on the other hand if users decide to mod them, i think thats their own skill. within our tournament details, ive been working on a ROG rule book for our events that clearly define rules and scenarios. basically restricting what you can and cant do. obviously online would be a bit hard, but at a live event, you can tell if a card is modded or not.

[M.Beier]

i didnt mean it as a joke. i am dead serious. i see all the drama going on and i get complaints about the drama all the time. like i said before i am here to help change how this industry does things. and i will not play on the same level or associate myself on the same level as my competitors. i know exactly where i stand, what i do, and what i need to do to get there. i also know exactly who gets sampled what in the USA and canada regions. we document serial numbers and the whole 9 yards. if an issue were to ever rise, i will check our batch of samples. plus people we sample to already know not to use those boards to compete, they have their purchased boards that are to be used.

if and when we go global yes it may be a bit harder to control but i will still do my best to make sure like that doesnt happen. which is why i want to perfect my rules before going global incase someone wants to screw things up.

So you know about all the hardware that HQ in Taiwan sent as well?
Cmon brian, you are not fooling an entire community....

PS: Sending you a PM with a real life example from your own company...

[Gautam]

why not go after the companies that help users cheat? they are the ones giving out modded hardware... why not do a 30 day ban or 3 month ban from the community if they decide to get involved with cheating?

Hmm...does that I mean I should be issuing you a ban now? I'll be merciful though, make it only 3 weeks, how's that sound?

[Splave]

why not go after the companies that help users cheat?

This


I would just hate to seen new rules get in the way of the fun as mentioned before and draw away from the team aspect.

[Brian@ASUS]

within the north american region we do all the sampling internally here. i can not speak for other regions but for USA we do all the sampling here and i know who gets sampled what. we hold strong ethics and we dont send modded hardware to overclockers. i am speaking for North America only. which is why our contest are held only within the NA region currently. within the next year or so, i hope to expand our competitions globally but if other regions can not play by my rules, i will not include them. if they decide to break them, well they wont be in my list of regions the next time around.

So you know about all the hardware that HQ in Taiwan sent as well?
Cmon brian, you are not fooling an entire community....

PS: Sending you a PM with a real life example from your own company...

[Brian@ASUS]

ok maybe i should restate whatever i said. i only represent north america. if other regions decide to act retarded which often happens, then well i cant really do much about that. but from a case by case situation, if you take just asus competitions, they are usually regional due to legal and logistic issues. so you can count on me that in my region, cheated hardware will never be issued.

Hmm...does that I mean I should be issuing you a ban now? I'll be merciful though, make it only 3 weeks, how's that sound?

[Gautam]

No worries just trying to lighten the mood. It might be your job, but you know some part of you deep down is loving every bit of this soap opera.

Heck, the same goes to rest of you all, too.

[Brian@ASUS]

lol, oc summit was a soap opera but it was fun

[voidn]

Regarding score validation I'd rather see a software system that would validate basically time stamp and validate the system. Video is tedious to record, edit, upload, and view. Perhaps a program that performs a screenshot, encodes it into a payload along with a time stamp, system information pull, a IP based geo-lookup, and then uploads the result to a central server?

We're currently looking into a wrapper for the Unigine Heaven benchmark and are trying to include as much verification tools as possible.

- Screenshot: included.
- Timestamp: problem because most benchers have freshly installed OS's and don't bother to correctly set the windows time
- System information pull: partially included (unique system info is in, hardware specs are not)
- IP: problem with bench rigs not connected to the internet
- Central server: done

Sounds like a step in the right direction. Don't forget to create a hash of the final files incase people want to tamper with them .

[Movieman]

Food for thought;
How about we as a community issue a statement to all the companies( motherboard,cpu and video card manufacturers) that this current mess in the MOA competition has said to us we need them to act honorably and let the hardware and the users speak for what is best not any specially binned parts.
I think WE( you people that compete) need to stand together as one voice and make that statement.

I've spoken with this guy Brain@Asus and he seems to be a decent guy with the "right" thinking so give him a chance guys..
Nothing positive will ever happen if we blast every company rep that comes to the forum.

[Monstru]

I do not agree with any of the rules from the first post. Sure, it's so cool, let's only compete with hardware bought from the store and show receips. I mean hell, the people that really matter are the people with tons of money, aren't they??? I mean, you all loved Andre so much because he is a very poor guy with a lot of luck when buying his only CPU...

I am getting more and more tired with all this nonsense going back and forth regarding all this. I think I will stick to writing about hardware pretty soon and forget all about competitions and stuff like that, since it is all getting to stinky for my nose anyway...

All this nonsense started because of two, big, fat god damn reasons: special sample seeding and people with lots of money.

Special samples seeding means all the s**t done with super duper modified cherries from the manufacturers. Be it the CPU's AMD picked from hunderds to show how cool Phenom II really is, be it the A0 Gulftowns that should have NEVER gotten out to the public in the first place, be it the ES 5870SOC with software voltage control that some guys were kind enough to use in a competition, be it Lightning samples used in competitions before beeing available in retail, and so on. Same thing happens outside competitions with super duper picked RAM kits, VGA's and so on, where people get fabulous numbers that somebody else using a lower bin of the same product will never ever get in their life. It amuses me like hell when a see so many people hailing those first rules, when I know very well which one is seeded by which manufacturer. And now you guys say that you want to see bought hardware in competitions? This is a joke, right? What I want to see is hardware available in retail used in competitions. I have no problem with Gulftown ES as long as it is B1 ES and not A0 ES. B1 is available in retail, A0 isn't, therefore A0 should not be used in competitions. Same thing goes for VGA's with special parts on them and so on. Yes, I do not care that it is given to the overclocker by the manufacturer as longs as it is NOT a special batch/design/bin that cannot be found in retail, or it can only be found after testing 50 CPU's, for instance. People work to get these, you know??? Everybody started from nothing, and some people work harder and they get samples. Now what do you want to do? Piss on these people and on their work, just because you cannot get samples? Not fair ladies, not fair at all. This is because of the manufacturers and people using special cherries. Stop that and there is no need for retail, bought hardware and so on.


Then it comes to the problem of the advantage of money if such rules would be inforced.... Why would you, X, have a better chance then me in a competition just because you live in a decent country and I live in the hell's pitt where a GTX480 costs 4 minimum wages??? What makes you better then me? The fact that in your country GTX480 is at most half of your monthly check? This makes the competition fair for everybody? Yeah, right.... I mean, if I cannot afford expensive hardware I work hard to get samples, I suppose working hard in overclocking is not appealing to most and you just want to buy it. Ok, you have the right, but why do you want to fluck people that worked for their hardware? And what do you hope to achieve by this??? Think hard, let's take the example of Andre, since the subject is hot anyway. Imagine Andre would not be seeded by nobody and he would like to win. And there is only bought hardware there. Well, I would have a problem buying an i980X for a competition. A guy in US may have a problem buying..let's say...3 pieces and finding the best one. Andre would have no problem buying 50 retail pieces, with bill, finding the best one, and then killing everybody, with your rules, with bought hardware, with a receip. And he could also binn other 5 CPU's and give them to his friends, so they do not share the CPU. Does that make it better for you fellas???And of course, I said Andre just because everybody made a big fuss about him, but of course anybody with a lot of money can do that. Well, Marc, do you feel wealthy enough to compete with this type of guys? I do not my friend

So, you see, your intentions are very, very good, but applying these rules would only give ENORMOUS headaches to everybody. So why don't we all just have a good fun together, remember why we are doing this, force manufacturers to stop the bs super cherry seeding, try to understand better what is going on, try to force them to listen to overclockers, and feel good doing what we like, without having to swear the first born if we enrty an overclocking competition. Doesn't that sound much better?

[Movieman]

~snip

You make soime interesting points but some are just life and there is no answer.
You mention the high cost because of where you live.
That's like complaining because it's cold in Finland..
Move if your not happy.That's not sarcasm, just straight truth.
A top nVidia 480 card here is app $500.00
That's not exactly chicken feed and as much as I'd like to try one I don't have the $$ to do so.
Do I complain about it? No,again, just life.
I do see your point on the ES chips and knew exactly who you were referring to with the A0 stepping comment and on that I think we can agree.
ES's of the same stepping as retail should be fair game as they are the same in any measurable way.
As to Andre and people with a lot of money that shouldn't be an issue.
If a guy has the funds to buy and bin 50 chips then good luck to him.
You might buy one and get the "golden" cpu so that is a non issue to me.

The issue is strictly that something has to be done to try and clean up this cheating mess and please don't take it so personally.
It's all about the community thriving in a fair playing field and not about any individual.

[Monstru]

Hey my friend, I think you misunderstood me. I have been doing this for a long time now and I do not think everybody heard me complaining
Everybody knows that if you don't have the cash to buy something, you can get it by working hard. I've been doing this for a while and you do not see me complaining that my Gulftown is crap and I cannot bin 50. That is the one I have, I will live with it. Maybe the next CPU will be better

The point is that these rules are very good for people with lots of money, period. Doesn't matter if you live in USA or Kuala Lumpur, somebody that can bin 50 CPU's will allways have the upper hand, no matter how many rules you have. Somebody using super duper cherries will allways have the upper hand, anywhere in this world. By enforcing THIS kind of rules, we would just give more advantage to people with lots of money. If this is what competitions should be about from you point of view, what can I say, good luck people, may the..."best" man win

The issue is strictly that something has to be done to try and clean up this cheating mess and please don't take it so personally.
It's all about the community thriving in a fair playing field and not about any individual.

I do not take it personally, I was just giving an example. I have been involved in keeping it fair for a while now, and I really ment exactly what I said in a post in another thread. Remember why we are doing this, remember the fun, the passion and the respect. When honor is gone, you can have 1000 bullet-proof rules. They don't make 2 cents, believe me, people will allways find various ways to trick the system. That is not the point. Respecting yourself and your colleagues, and your work and their work, that is the point.

That's like complaining because it's cold in Finland..
Move if your not happy.That's not sarcasm, just straight truth.
A top nVidia 480 card here is app $500.00
That's not exactly chicken feed and as much as I'd like to try one I don't have the $$ to do so.
Do I complain about it? No,again, just life.

I understand so well why you are saying this, but there are such enormous differences between our cultures that I am sure that is much better if I do not adress this issue, even knowing that I am talking to a very wise, educated man. Let's just say that this is just like saying - hey, you don't like this mess in overclocking??? Then why don't you try ballet?

[Brian@ASUS]

ill root for the underdogs.

[massman]

Remember why we are doing this, remember the fun, the passion and the respect. When honor is gone, you can have 1000 bullet-proof rules. They don't make 2 cents, believe me, people will allways find various ways to trick the system. That is not the point. Respecting yourself and your colleagues, and your work and their work, that is the point.

[Movieman]

snip~

I do not take it personally, I was just giving an example. I have been involved in keeping it fair for a while now, and I really ment exactly what I said in a post in another thread. Remember why we are doing this, remember the fun, the passion and the respect. When honor is gone, you can have 1000 bullet-proof rules. They don't make 2 cents, believe me, people will allways find various ways to trick the system. That is not the point. Respecting yourself and your colleagues, and your work and their work, that is the point.

Better said than I could.
and sorry for any misunderstandings.

[[XC] gomeler]

Excellent. We are coming to a consensus that more rules aren't the answer

[The Nemesis]

within the north american region we do all the sampling internally here. i can not speak for other regions but for USA we do all the sampling here and i know who gets sampled what. we hold strong ethics and we dont send modded hardware to overclockers. i am speaking for North America only. which is why our contest are held only within the NA region currently. within the next year or so, i hope to expand our competitions globally but if other regions can not play by my rules, i will not include them. if they decide to break them, well they wont be in my list of regions the next time around.

As a lowly up in comer I can say that I believe Asus NA are fully aware of what and who they sample. You won't see me competing with any such hardware. But also it's not as easy as some seem to think to get samples.

[snoro]

Very nicely said monstru but i still think the post a video of some part of your benching session where you got your score could be a good rule, easy to do,cost peanuts to do and would give alot more confidence to everyone since they see the guy benching and they could also learn fromn those video, so its not only a prrof of your score but a way to show your skills and to explain to other one how to do it.

There is also some car racing event that have a rule that after the event you buy any of the racers car for x amount of money to keep the playing field fair but it would be a bit to much complicated for the overclocking scene.

[Riska]

I agree on that we should have some new rules on the big comps.
But marc the thing i cant understand is wy it is you bringing it up because for the danish Moa comp. you lent yuor gigabyte HD5870 to Oliver and David AkA Odoc for the aquamark bench because they dident have one them selve and as far as i now that isent alowed is it??
But yeah we should have som stricter rules for the big comps.

[Patch]

Make the rules few and simple, but the punishments harsh.

Despite noble intentions, more rules eventually lead to less fun. I say do what you did for LN2, LOD and the like: if you can't monitor it then just make it legal. And lifetime ban anyone who cheats. Sure, they'll cheat again under a different name - but that's life. Ban em again. And again. Frankly, the people consistently at the top end up having a face to match the name eventually.

Videos seem like no big deal, but that's a big PITA. Might be easy for those of you doing group endeavors, but I bench alone in the middle of the night when the family is asleep. Tending 2, 3, 4 pots while refilling my thermos and adjusting ROG connect or EVBot, then refilling my thermos again, then assembling a screenie without coldbugging one of the components ain't always easy. I'm not excited about the idea of tending a camera too. Nor do I care for the idea of leaving it on for 6 hours, then spending my time going through the thing to find the bench in question. Especially since people who cheat won't have any qualms about making the video show (or not show) what they wish shown (or not shown).

[Expat GriZ]

Make the rules few and simple, but the punishments harsh.

Despite noble intentions, more rules eventually lead to less fun. I say do what you did for LN2, LOD and the like: if you can't monitor it then just make it legal. And lifetime ban anyone who cheats. Sure, they'll cheat again under a different name - but that's life. Ban em again. And again. Frankly, the people consistently at the top end up having a face to match the name eventually.

Videos seem like no big deal, but that's a big PITA. Might be easy for those of you doing group endeavors, but I bench alone in the middle of the night when the family is asleep. Tending 2, 3, 4 pots while refilling my thermos and adjusting ROG connect or EVBot, then refilling my thermos again, then assembling a screenie without coldbugging one of the components ain't always easy. I'm not excited about the idea of tending a camera too. Nor do I care for the idea of leaving it on for 6 hours, then spending my time going through the thing to find the bench in question. Especially since people who cheat won't have any qualms about making the video show (or not show) what they wish shown (or not shown).

I'm another nighthawk lone wolf bencher and would have to agree. Well said Patch.

I remember something my Gramps told me when I was a young fella... "Locks are for Honest People".

It doesn't matter how many rules you have in place, someone, somewhere will find a way to hack, break, fiddle or just outright cheat. We have even got to point in society where we glorify "the hacker" with movies, etc. and they all get their 15 minutes of fame. The rules in place are good as they are, maybe some tweaking but we definetly don't need more rules which compound the situation.

The issue with money...well....sorry but that is the world we live in & have created for ourselves. If life was fair we'd all be brain surgeon rock stars. The world is definetly not some Utopian society....some make or have more than others. If you aren't happy with it, MOVE, change your life, job, etc. Get off your behind and go to school, take a course...whatever. If I can do it, well...anybody can.

There are people on this forum who have spent a ton of money on equipment & don't even compete. I've personally been accumulating gear for 2+ years now & am almost in a position to put down some scores, but the search for good chips still goes on...and always will.

This has and always will be a hobby for me. One day I might have a run at the "BOT" but I'll never forget that first time I hit 5 ghz....then months later 6!!! W0W..I was high for days, drunk with euphoria. The only one who wasn't impressed was the missus...had to get her up at 4:30AM and tell her!!